Wayne, my 7.5 tonne camper came with a set of four bog standard Goodyear Regional RHD on the rear. These have the M+S symbol and, if I interpret the translation correctly, legally, that's all I need and it doesn't matter that the fronts are RHS without the symbol.
espri, also bear in mind that German authorities do perform random autobahn stops. I've been stopped 2x randomly by the border police shortly after arriving from the Netherlands (1x they had a nose at the car as well as checking passport, drivers licence and the like). I've also been stopped 2x after turning off autobahn to tank up at autohof, when police were stopping *all* cars and checking the usual things (licence, ID, and presumably tyres, TüV stickers, have you been drinking etc. etc.)
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
andy, I've only been stopped once (after the Oktoberfest) in over 30 years here (including 10 years commuting 80 kms each way daily on the Salzburg autobahn, like Sue), though admittedly I've driven a car with German (now Austrian) plates.
espri, 4x in 7 years on german plates. maybe I'm doing something wrong?
PS beware Audi A4s, driving at 100km/h on the A3 just this side of the Dutch border
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Wayne, I've got a couple of scanned pictures from the latest ADAC magazine showing how the tyres differ and also what the markings mean. I do not have time to translate the text but it is pretty well self-explanatory. If someone can remind me how to insert them I will do so. I also have a list of ADAC recommended winter tyres for each size (but just for cars).
I agree with Espri that your tyres are probably covered by the HGV regs and I have no idea about those.
Espri, I am not exaggerating, I am reporting this because outside of Bavaria, where it goes without saying that we switch to winter tyres, this is big news. As I drove through Belgium and eastern France it was being discussed on the radio stations as being of importance to drivers who frequently border cross to shop or do business and how they were at risk. That's how I knew of the ratification of the law although I was not in Germany at the time. The Dutch are bitching like hell because the regulations also apply to their caravans and we all know how well they cope with hills like the Irschenberg.
In terms of the letter of the law, the car hire companies are legally obliged to provide a roadworthy vehicle which complies with the current legislation. If I were picking up a hire car today (which I may have to as my car is going into the garage for work to be done on it), it would have to have winter tyres on it and I would not have to pay extra for them. You do not have to pay more for having valid insurance cover, nor for having a vehicle that has a valid TÜV, these are legal requirements, as are tyres that are suitable for the prevailing weather conditions. However, as the cars will have German plates they are less likely to be checked at any of the controls. Cars with foreign plates such as GB, B or NL plates are possibly more at risk of being checked. There was a full check being carried out on Saturday night just over the border from Luxembourg (near Merzig) and I only saw French, Luxembourg and a couple of Dutch vehicles being stopped and checked as I got waved through. I'm not sure if it was a police or customs control as both sets were involved.
I think UK skiers who book car hire from the UK to be picked up at an airport near the mountains are being taken for a ride by companies who insist on charging extra for winter tyres. Locals don't have to pay extra, so why should they. My guess is that the companies are counting on people not knowing the regulations and either willing to pay the extra or, if they choose not to, are willing to run the risk of having to foot the bill for all the damage as the insurance will be invalidated should an accident occur. 99% of the time, they will get away with it. But when the shoite hits the fan, the car hire companies can say they offered the correct equipment but it was not accepted by the driver. Heads they win, tails you lose.
It just means we take a chance & get fined or we just drive via France & Switzerland
Its a big game between the Dutch & Germans. Our Police always stand on the boarder and book Germans for speeding & they book us for everything else
After all it is free
After all it is free
altis, Read the post
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
altis, I usually change over sometime in April, but it is weather and road dependant. If we are having a cold wet April or I know I'm going into the mountains to ski at higher levels, I leave them on. I scared myself a couple of years ago coming down the Gletscherstrasse in Sölden after the opening World Cup races with summer tyres on, so now I play safe for my own peace of mind. A 15 year old Bavarian lad was killed in an accident coming down that road in a coach last weekend, the coach left the road for some reason and rolled down the hill. The coach was equipped with winter tyres according to the report I read yesterday, but accidents can occur and these roads leave you with little chance of walking away from a wreck.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
andy wrote:
espri, 4x in 7 years on german plates. maybe I'm doing something wrong?
Must be your face, andy Probably I'm so old and staid they don't bother!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
stanton, same scenario vis-à-vis police between Bavaria and the Austrians! And they all go after the Italians and Eastern Europeans.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Samerberg Sue wrote:
In terms of the letter of the law, the car hire companies are legally obliged to provide a roadworthy vehicle which complies with the current legislation. If I were picking up a hire car today (which I may have to as my car is going into the garage for work to be done on it), it would have to have winter tyres on it and I would not have to pay extra for them.
As has been said, there is no legal requirement for winter tyres unless the roads are wintry (so it isn't the same as insurance; you can choose not to take the car if it hasn't got the equipment necessary for the current conditions). So I fear you would have to pay extra for them. And it seems to me that that is quite logical and correct. The car-hire companies are not going to pay the extra costs of winter tyres and changing them off and on out of the kindness of their hearts! So either they will up the hire costs for everybody, whether they use winter tyres or not, or continue charging extra for them. Maybe the latter alternative is even the fairer way (not to say that they might not rip follk off, since we have no idea what the additional costs are). However, now that the new regulation (in Germany) has caught people's attention, maybe the companies will move eventually to covering the costs up front. But I don't think that will happen generally in this winter.
I still feel it is up to the driver to confirm that the company is providing winter tyres when needed and pay for them through grinding teeth (or accept that it is an extra cost). Maybe we will also find that hire cars in "wintry" areas, like Bavaria, do tend to come with winter tyres (though I doubt that national hirers could organise that). But you'll still be paying for them somewhere.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Samerberg Sue wrote:
A 15 year old Bavarian lad was killed in an accident coming down that road in a coach last weekend, the coach left the road for some reason and rolled down the hill. The coach was equipped with winter tyres according to the report I read yesterday, but accidents can occur and these roads leave you with little chance of walking away from a wreck.
There was apparently technical defect with the bus.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Tue 30-11-10 13:43; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
espri wrote:
Samerberg Sue wrote:
In terms of the letter of the law, the car hire companies are legally obliged to provide a roadworthy vehicle which complies with the current legislation. If I were picking up a hire car today (which I may have to as my car is going into the garage for work to be done on it), it would have to have winter tyres on it and I would not have to pay extra for them.
As has been said, there is no legal requirement for winter tyres unless the roads are wintry (so it isn't the same as insurance; you can choose not to take the car if it hasn't got the equipment necessary for the current conditions). So I fear you would have to pay extra for them. And it seems to me that that is quite logical and correct. The car-hire companies are not going to pay the extra costs of winter tyres and changing them off and on out of the kindness of their hearts! So either they will up the hire costs for everybody, whether they use winter tyres or not, or continue charging extra for them. Maybe the latter alternative is even the fairer way (not to say that they might not rip follk off, since we have no idea what the additional costs are). However, now that the new regulation (in Germany) has caught people's attention, maybe the companies will move eventually to covering the costs up front. But I don't think that will happen generally in this winter.
I still feel it is up to the driver to confirm that the company is providing winter tyres when needed and pay for them through grinding teeth (or accept that it is an extra cost). Maybe we will also find that hire cars in "wintry" areas, like Bavaria, do tend to come with winter tyres (though I doubt that national hirers could organise that). But you'll still be paying for them somewhere.
you seem to be suggesting that car rental companies opertaing out of, for example, Munich, MAY have rental cars available WITHOUT winter tyres? That would be illogical given they are not legally allowed to rent them if at the time the rental takes place the roads are 'wintery', essentailly grounding many of their rental fleet for much of the winter, whihc would be considered an ill-advised business model.
The law may not dictate that all rental cars in alpine regions of Germany will have winter tyres fitted, but logic does.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
smithski wrote:
you seem to be suggesting that car rental companies opertaing out of, for example, Munich, MAY have rental cars available WITHOUT winter tyres? That would be illogical given they are not legally allowed to rent them if at the time the rental takes place the roads are 'wintery', essentailly grounding many of their rental fleet for much of the winter, whihc would be considered an ill-advised business model.
The law may not dictate that all rental cars in alpine regions of Germany will have winter tyres fitted, but logic does.
I fear my logic differs from yours and I suspect that my logic is closer to how the car-hire companies think.
The companies can rent cars with or without winter tyres. It is up to the driver to decide whether the conditions allow him to drive the car legally. And that may be reasonable enough for, even in Munich, you don't need winter tyres 90% of the time (I estimate). Let's wait and see what car-hirers experience in practice this winter.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
espri, So lets say that there is indisputably snow on the ground at Munich aiport, I go and get a rental car. The conditions at the time mean that by law I cannot drive drive a car without winter tryes. At this time, is it lawful for the rental company to supply me with a vehicle which I cannot legally use, i.e providing goods/service which are not fit for purpose?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
smithski wrote:
espri, So lets say that there is indisputably snow on the ground at Munich aiport, I go and get a rental car. The conditions at the time mean that by law I cannot drive drive a car without winter tryes. At this time, is it lawful for the rental company to supply me with a vehicle which I cannot legally use, i.e providing goods/service which are not fit for purpose?
Yes, I think it is, illogical though that may seem. The thing is, the car-hire companies are practically not set up to supply all their cars with winter tyres (I suspect), especially this year. I don't think the companies necessarily guarantee that you can drive the car under all conditions. Even with winter tyres you might not be able to drive. But ask a car-hire company, not me
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
espri, I shall endeavour to find out at the weekend and will report back ....
In practice, what has happened in Austria since this law came in there, is that all hire cars (that we have encountered) are automatically fitted with winter tyres in the winter months. You don't know this when you book though, and there is still the option to click to pay an extra EURxx per day for winter tyres, and you could then turn up to rent the car and be happy that it is supplied as requested. However, if you don't book and pay for winter tyres, you equally turn up at car hire desk and get a car with winter tyres, as they all do, and don't pay for them.
I also feel that Samerberg Sue is rather exaggerating the police's interest in the whole matter. If your vehicle doesn't cause a traffic jam or accident, I doubt there is more than a 1 in a 1000000 chance of you being checked (occasional special actions excepted) - even if you're Dutch
Oh. That's OK then. As long as I'm not caught there's obviously no need to make any effort to comply with German road traffic regulations. And if I kill someone on the way, I guess that's just too bad.
Samerberg Sue, we're likely to be driving through Germany this winter, and my Discovery's tyres are marked M+S. I assume that you're not a lawyer but you're definitely closer to the action than me - to the best of your knowledge, do they meeet the minimum German legal requirements?
After a scary incident in the Brecon Beacons last winter, I do intend to acquire some proper winter tyres. Local availability in the right size is very restricted, though, so that might not be an option for me.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Jonny Jones wrote:
Samerberg Sue, we're likely to be driving through Germany this winter, and my Discovery's tyres are marked M+S. I assume that you're not a lawyer but you're definitely closer to the action than me - to the best of your knowledge, do they meeet the minimum German legal requirements?
After a scary incident in the Brecon Beacons last winter, I do intend to acquire some proper winter tyres. Local availability in the right size is very restricted, though, so that might not be an option for me.
The M+S tyres are legally acceptable (see post a little earlier).
But take care; a Discovery can skid even with winter tyres. Believe me! It's the weight.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Jonny Jones,
Quote:
"die Verpflichtung, dass bei den genannnten Wetterverhältnissen nur solche Reifen gefahren werden dürfen, bei denen das Profil der Lauffläche und die Struktur so konzipiert sind, dass sie vor allem auf Matsch und frischem oder schmelzendem Schnee bessere Fahreigenschaften gewährleisten als normale Reifen (Winterreifen, Allwetter- bzw. Ganzjahresreifen, die eine M+S-Kennzeichnung oder eine entsprechende Kennzeichnung mit dem Bergpiktogramm/Schneeflocke tragen erfüllen diese Anforderung).
Translation = M&S or Mountain & Snowflake symbol (some tyres have all)
There is probably a minimum tread depth (needed to displace snow & water) of circa 4mm (this is he case in Austria where most will be travelling to with a German rental car anyway)
Welche Auswirkung hat die Ausrüstungsvorschrift auf Autovermieter?
Ein gesetzlicher Anspruch auf Überlassung eines Fahrzeuges mit Winter- oder Ganzjahresreifen gegenüber einer Autovermietung besteht nicht. Wer sicher gehen will, im Winter ein Fahrzeug mit Winterreifen zu bekommen, sollte diese Zusatzleistung bei der Reservierung verlangen; zum Teil werden hierfür gesonderte Gebühren verlangt. Wurde bei der Reservierung kein Fahrzeug mit Winterreifen zugesagt und steht bei verschneiten Straßen kein Auto mit Winterreifen mehr zur Verfügung, kann es passieren, dass Autos mit Sommerreifen nicht ausgegeben werden.
Translation = The car rental company does not have a legal requirement to fit winter tyres, if you rent a car without winter tyres and the weather is wintry you might not be able to pick up the rental car.
My advice - when you ring up to book the rental car and the Rental company say there will be an extra cost for winter tyres then say OK no thanks because another rental company includes winter tyres. I suspect certain rental companies will try and milk the extras, last resort - a lot of noise, disgust and the threat to go elsewhere in front of the Rental counter will probably get you winter tyres included at no extra cost. Make sure you have it in writting that the car will come with winter tyres. For safety, insurance and legal reasons don't drive with summer tyres in winter conditions.
Last edited by After all it is free on Tue 30-11-10 15:09; edited 1 time in total
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Jonny Jones, not a lawyer, just a translator who avoids legal stuff like the plague.
If someone reminds me how to do it I can post some images I scanned in from our local press and the ADAC. I believe the M+S is actually mud and slush not snow, but I'm not 100% sure. According to my latest copy of the ADAC magazine your M+S shows that it is suitable for winter use BUT it does depend on the make as there is no internationally recognised marking system. So they particularly refer to tyres on SUVs as well as some cheap tyres from the Far East that for some reason could carry the M+S sign but are not actually suitable for winter conditions.
They also recommend that even with winter/snow tyres you should maintain a minimum of 4mm profile and not use tyres older than 7or 8 years. I'm on my second set (bought last year) with a car that is just over 6 years old. As I use them for 6 months of the year I'm quite happy with their wear and tear.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
espri wrote:
But take care; a Discovery can skid even with winter tyres. Believe me! It's the weight.
Too right it can! Last winter, despite having engaged the correct 4wd snow drive setting, I went into a lengthy, uncontrollable 5mph slide down a snowy road that had a gradient of 10% or so. The previous driver to tackle the hill had crashed and blocked the road, and I only avoided financial disaster by doing some impromptu off roading. Scary stuff indeed.
There's no doubt that my Discovery with M+S tyres has nothing like the grip of other 4x4s that I've hired which have been equipped with proper snow tyres. Normal summer tyres must be much worse, so, for me, this isn't so much a matter of complying with the law as trying to keep my family safe.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Jonny Jones wrote:
espri wrote:
I also feel that Samerberg Sue is rather exaggerating the police's interest in the whole matter. If your vehicle doesn't cause a traffic jam or accident, I doubt there is more than a 1 in a 1000000 chance of you being checked (occasional special actions excepted) - even if you're Dutch
Oh. That's OK then. As long as I'm not caught there's obviously no need to make any effort to comply with German road traffic regulations. And if I kill someone on the way, I guess that's just too bad.
Quite. I for one have been stopped in wintery conditions about 3 or 4 times in Austria, having caused no hold up or accident, to check I had winter tyres and chains (on one occasion). I've also had really regular checks even just on cold but non-snowy days in Austria for appropriate papers etc. (happens usually once each holiday, so not 'occasional special actions'), and this includes a cursory glance at tyres and lights. I can imagine the same happening in Germany.
In my experience, a new traffic law is always enforced rigorously for the first months/couple of years to ensure people are toeing the line, and then the authorities might have less interest after that once they are convinced of a satisfactory level of compliance.
D
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Samerberg Sue,
Matsch & Schnee.
Always thought 6 years was the max life of a tyre.
Winterreifen sollten nicht älter als 6 Jahre alt sein. Dabei ist es egal, welche Profiltiefe sie noch aufweisen. Ab einem Reifenalter von 6 Jahren steigt das Risiko, dass die Gummimischung des Reifens aushärtet. Dann muss mit einer nachlassenden Fahrleistung bei Schnee und Eis gerechnet werden. Eine wichtige Rolle spielt hierbei auch die korrekte Lagerung der Winterreifen.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
DB, that is the German interpretation. I always had M+S tyres on my UK vehicle (an old style Volvo 940 Turbo Diesel) and was told in the UK that M+S equalled mud and slush - probably as we did not get much snow in the SW of England.
My garage tells me 5 years but the ADAC is saying 7 to 8 years old (p.68 Heft 11 2010)
Why are we still nit-picking over all of this? The regulation has been ratified and passed into law. To my mind it is not much clearer than the old law, except they have defined clearly what the conditions are. If you wish to take chances that is your decision, nobody else's. The information was made available for people to use or ignore. It appears that most of the UK residents feel that they are either exempt or being put upon, but feel free to interpret things however they wish as long as it suits their purposes.
Quite simply, there is now a legal requirement to drive in Germany with tyres that are legally appropriate to clearly defined weather conditions. If you get caught doing otherwise - tough shite, your problem. I just hope that nobody else suffers as a result of your arrogance and miserliness.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Samerberg Sue wrote:
Quite simply, there is now a legal requirement to drive in Germany with tyres that are legally appropriate to clearly defined weather conditions.
Can't you see Sue that this is not the same as "winter tyres are compulsory"?
I think that's all that some of us have been trying to point out - hopefully tactfully.
BTW, I've just been going round checking screenwash and tyre pressures etc. I notice that the manual for Mrs A's Polo says that winter tyres should be inflated to 0.2 bar (3 psi) more than summer tyres. Probably something worth checking!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
altis,
Quote:
Can't you see Sue that this is not the same as "winter tyres are compulsory"?
That is my interpretation of what has been said as well, however for anything except a half hour trip over the border you might as well treat it as winter tyres compulsory. You would look pretty stupid if you drove into Germany on summer tyres, then it started to snow - what to do? Sit at the side of the road indefinitely until you starve, or break the law and risk a fine (or a crash!)? Presumably if you were stopped and fined for inadequate tyres you would be prevented from carrying on as well. It is complete no-brainer as far as I can see - get the right tyres or you are heading for trouble. I for one will be very glad to think that when driving down the autobahn in the snow and slush that the car behind is likely to be able to stop as quickly as I can.
I wish a similar law would be brought in here - it might at least stop the "snow brings country a halt" every time we get well forecast winter weather.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
altis,
Quote:
Can't you see Sue that this is not the same as "winter tyres are compulsory"?
That is my interpretation of what has been said as well, however for anything except a half hour trip over the border you might as well treat it as winter tyres compulsory. You would look pretty stupid if you drove into Germany on summer tyres, then it started to snow - what to do? Sit at the side of the road indefinitely until you starve, or break the law and risk a fine (or a crash!)? Presumably if you were stopped and fined for inadequate tyres you would be prevented from carrying on as well. It is complete no-brainer as far as I can see - get the right tyres or you are heading for trouble. I for one will be very glad to think that when driving down the autobahn in the snow and slush that the car behind is likely to be able to stop as quickly as I can.
I wish a similar law would be brought in here - it might at least stop the "snow brings country a halt" every time we get well forecast winter weather.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
espri, you have stuck your oar in on the legality of winter tyres before.
All your points do is confuse the issue and offer loop-holes in the written words.
Winter tyres are law in Austria.
If you don't have them you are an idiot and endangering the lives of yourselfs and every other road user.
If you are in Austria in the winter with summer tyres you are breaking the law and risk being fined. If you have an accident you will not be insured.
FULL F********* STOP!!!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
flangesax wrote:
espri, you have stuck your oar in on the legality of winter tyres before.
All your points do is confuse the issue and offer loop-holes in the written words.
Winter tyres are law in Austria.
If you don't have them you are an idiot and endangering the lives of yourselfs and every other road user.
If you are in Austria in the winter with summer tyres you are breaking the law and risk being fined. If you have an accident you will not be insured.
FULL F********* STOP!!!
I'm sorry, flangesax, but either you haven't read the Austrian law or don't understand it (or don't understand what I and others have written about it). What you write above just isn't true. True would be: "If you are in Austria driving in wintry conditions with summer tyres you are breaking the law and risk being fined. If you have an accident you may not be insured."
You also seem to have a greater belief in the properties of winter tyres than I do. That is what would worry me. A tyre is a tyre is a tyre and only has so much grip, winter or summer tyres. Winter tyres are only a help when driving in wintry conditions; they don't guarantee that you stay in control. The main thing is that the driver adapts to the road conditions and the equipment he/she has.
If you read my posts (e.g. in this thread), you will see that I have regularly advocated using winter tyres. I can only repeat what I said above:
"It is certainly sensible to have winter tyres when driving to a ski resort. If you don't have them, you may not be able to use the car (legally). However, winter tyres are not a panacea for all driving problems in winter. My car regularly skids, despite winter tyres and four-wheel drive. What is essential is to adapt your driving to the conditions and your equipment."
Without skiing you lot in Tyrol would still all be driving tractors, is this proof that you haven't yet adapted from farm machinery?
Yes even with winter tyres there are still circa 320 road accidents per day in Austria but without tyres there would be much more. In general the tourists will have less winter driving experience than the locals and whereas winter tyres will not make them invincible it helps to close the performance gap to some degree.
Without winter tyres the police can also stop you from trying to drive on with summer tyres which could be a real bummer on powder days.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The most dangerous place to park is the hard shoulder of a motorway, it's safer to get out of the car and off the motorway. It's very dangerous to install snow chains while parked on the hard shoulder. The insurance companies often don't pay out if the crash wouldn't of happened with winter tyres. So would the insurnace company pay out if a car with summer tyres was hit on the hard shoulder while other drivers with winter tyres were not stranded?
Passenger cars and trucks with a permissible maximum weight of up to 3.5 t
Passenger cars and trucks with a permissible maximum weight of up to 3.5 t may be operated only between 1 November and 15 April in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice if winter tyres have been installed on all wheels.
As an alternative to winter tyres, snow chains may be used on at least two driving wheels, however, these may only be used in case the road is covered by a complete or scarcely broken snow cover or sheet of ice.
Please Note: Winter tyres are tyres with a certain depth of profile used as snow and mud tyres or as snow, mud and ice tyres, i.e., tyres marked "M/E" or "M/S/E".
Vehicles exempt from this requirement are:
* Public security service vehicles, army vehicles, and fire trucks on which it is impossible or not useful to install winter tyres due to the vehicle's design or due to its predominant purpose of use,
* Vehicles equipped with "special" tyres due to the vehicle’s design or due to its predominant purpose of use,
* Vehicles used for tests or the transfer of vehicles.
Perhaps it takes a logical mind to read it properly but I think that's fairly clear.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
altis, don't panic espri will be along in a minute to pick holes in this statement (as previous threads prove)... He'll say that the clause stating 'winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice' means that they are not a legal requirement in Austria and people can drive legally without them when conditions allow....
Then people who give a monkeys about road safety then point out that it is very rare to have anything other these conditions in Austria during the winter (especially around the ski areas which is (funnily enough) what this website tends to focus on).....
No more comments from me on this thread... been there done that ad nauseum... if any of you lot fancy using summer tyres during the winter in Austria then you are a danger.
After all it is free
After all it is free
As someone, who spend 6 hours on road (for 50km) on Friday, and another 1.5h for 25km today morning, just because some idiot thinks it's perfectly fine to drive in snow storm with summer tires, I'm "a bit" touchy when it comes to this. My solution would be simple... you don't have winter tires? Fine, come and pick your car in summer. Until then, you don't drive around here. Of course you can drive with any kind of tires back home, and it's perfectly fine for me, if whole London is blocked for days when you get 1cm of snow, but around here, come properly equipped. If someone doesn't have those few 100eur for winter tires, please stay at home. We will survive without your money, and my nerves will feel better if I don't see such people around here.
PS: Here in Slovenia, law is explicitly saying winter tires on all 4 wheels from 15.11. till 15.3... no matter if it's +20 and dry or -20c and snowing like hell... and penalties are from 120 to 400eur. Too bad they don't make more checks about this.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
flangesax wrote:
[, don't panic espri will be along in a minute to pick holes in this statement (as previous threads prove)... He'll say that the clause stating 'winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice' means that they are not a legal requirement in Austria and people can drive legally without them when conditions allow....
Why would he want to "pick holes"?
It is utterly and completely obvious from the extract above that what you suggest he would say is in fact exactly what the law means.
There is no need to pick holes to show that.
What ismore, I am sure taht is also what altis meant when he said it is quite clear.
Quote:
Then people who give a monkeys about road safety then point out that it is very rare to have anything other these conditions in Austria during the winter (especially around the ski areas which is (funnily enough) what this website tends to focus on).....
No more comments from me on this thread... been there done that ad nauseum... if any of you lot fancy using summer tyres during the winter in Austria then you are a danger.
That is a totally uncalled for and unpleasant comment,. unless you can find somewhere in this thread, a suggestion from anybody taht they might fancy doing so.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
alex_heney, Actually Alex there has been loads of innuendo and smart-@rsed comment.
We live here, we know the rules and we have advised people accordingly. With the change of law in Germany they will be looking and the chances are that people coming in from the west, i.e. UK, Belgium and the Netherlands are going to be looked at very carefully. I saw this being done on Saturday night as I drove back from the UK. You guys are easy pickings and a real cash cow for cash-strapped local police forces. Me, I'm happy, they'll be checking Gelbfüsse, Frites and Rechtsfahrer as they can be pretty sure they can make some dosh, instead of setting up speed traps and hoping to catch locals
Espri and some others are splitting hairs - the law states if the conditions = winter you have winter tyres or pay the fines. We warned you and are now withdrawing from further comment. We are all OK, as is Espri with his Land Rover on his Alm!
No-one said that winter tyres make you invincible - regardless of whether you have 4-wheel drive or bloody studs for that matter, if you drive like a prat, you will either end up in a ditch or dead. Unfortunately, the chances are you'll probably take someone else with you.
Funnily enough we have had over 50cms of new snow in the past 48 hours or so, but the world has not ground to a halt, schools are not closed, nor are the trains stuck because of the wrong sort of frigging snowflakes on the lines. Life goes on, but at a slower and a more separated (gaps between vehicles) pace. If this is anything like the season 2005/2006, I have seen the last of the grass around here until April or maybe even May. Am I bothered? No, it is a part of life here and I welcome it. Going to put in another 12 hour shift tomorrow and knock off on Friday to ski with Flangesax and kooky!
Anyway Alex - you always fly, so what's your interest? Coming out in January or March this season?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Probably I'm so old and staid they don't bother!
Make sure you have it in writting that the car will come with winter tyres. For safety, insurance and legal reasons don't drive with summer tyres in winter conditions.
