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in /var/www/html/ski-forum/includes/xtrafunctions.php on line 3634 To counter or not to counter? That is the question. (4), snowHeads ski forum
well I went in injured and had to drop out weds pm in pain, upped the drugs to max and found that 75 mg of diclofenic along with coedine got me through on th and friday. Hang tough weds then you will get scores on the doors.. keep the faith brother. You have to give each run full bore to stand a chance.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Cheers Scott, I'm more 'out of gas' and lacking that top gear. Enjoyed the bumps end of last week and didn't fully recover in a w/e's rest.
However, after much reflection I have a plan: look further ahead Same simple advice as I give to most of my adult students on the plastic at home.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
It felt to me that the week was Mon was for the Trainers to have a good look, tues weds to fatigue you Thursday perform while fatigued and Friday perform under stress
Get the body down the hill towards the centre line and don't worry about the platform. The legs and skis sort themselves out and when they grip and power up- then you get countered by using rotational separation and then angulation.
To me this echo's idea's given to me by my old ESC Coach back in the day and developed by John Shedden\ESC back before I learned to ski.
Out of interest what are the trainers looking for in terms of output from you and your ski's, or is it pretty much a judged performance ?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
AndAnotherThing: Hi! The candidates on competition cut slalom skis are delivering very carvy output on longs. "BASI Appropriate" to the conditions. If it's soft underfoot the expectation for big grip angles is moderated. Then you have to achieve an "influencing the radius" during the turn - but with softness rather than harshness.
We have a 30 FIS point athlete on our group and he's on ~20m skis and even he is doing a steering angle at the top of the long-turn. That is judged to be acceptable.
We are using the Stadt, the piste above the TuxerFenerHaus and Black 11b for piste performance. It's challenging terrain. But the snow is pretty moist and gets soft in the mist.
I'm on Rossi 9GS Oversize 186cm with a 21m radius. I've been asked to do a small steering angle on turn-entry. Then Clean-carve.
The Short turn requirements are to be grippy at the apex. We are gripping in the fall-line apex and keeping clean lines into the crossover. Sometimes we are asked for C-shaped turns. Other times we are asked for a punchy parabolic turn-shape with controlled rebound from apex to apex (The image is trampettes in the apex).
The platformless turn seems to be getting picked up from Canadian coaches. BASI is getting more international and there is cross-fertilisation of ideas from mainly Canadian and Italian contacts.
I must say that last week when I wrote here on the platformless turn we had a different trainer then. This week there's a different trainer and it's back to C-Shape Turns and C-Shaped Body to make angulation.
In development, I've been working on generating skiddy round turns with lots of rotational separation starting in the fall-line. Then I have to keep the shape, but clean-carve it in longs from above the fall-line.
I'll let you knpw more if/ when I get to the level on the piste performance!
SkiPresto May 2014
On the "every run full-bore" : I'm quite surprised at the modest level of performance so far that seems to be acceptable. Accuracy and Consistency seems to be winning over "Sending It". However, it's definitely a development week and it all will be decided when the "fat lady" begins her Friday aria.
The trainer underlined the fact that he has seen Wednesday strugglers hit it on the Friday and get the tick-in-the-box.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I've decided not to quibble when asked to "influence the radius" and deliver a constant-radius C-Shaped turn. It doesn't make sense to me.
After all it is free
After all it is free
SkiPresto, hope the legs are holding up.. I can sympathise on the different requirements. Seemed to me they wanted to see both and the firmer the snow the more of an impulse controlled rebound turn, apex to apex as you say and much more so on Shorts than on longs. In softer snow and slush we were doing more C shaped and pressure management during longs. We needed to send it every run but if no grip on piste accuracy was preferred.
My trainer told a few on Weds they stood no chance and two left before the course finished. No one who wasn't at the level on Weds on at least 3 of 4 strands passed on my week. Seemed to me if you had work to do on one strand you stood a chance but more than that look at as training...
Bon Chance !!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
SkiPresto wrote:
The platformless turn seems to be getting picked up from Canadian coaches.
Not sure about that, maybe there was a jargon mismatch.
Kenny, that stuff is 3 years old and different associations use different terminology. Three phases has gone by the by even by most canadian guys.. I tend to use and think about long radius turns as four "phases"
transition - flatten ski , not by popping up but by projecting hips across and down hill with a small cross over
set up / platform - extend new outside leg with high hip rolling progressively onto edge and softening inner leg allowing body to incline into turn
Load / drive phase - ski just above fall line - driving outside ski into snow and increasing edge angle
completion / release -just after fall line as forces build allow angulation and flex legs enough to develop edge biggest angles but minimal pressure to get under gate, staying low and preparing for new set up
Edit : added "platform" to set up phase
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Thu 8-05-14 10:37; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Hey Skimottaret. I think we nerd to be open to different models of template on the turn.
I've been using four phases.
0 the recentring on flat ski between arcs in a GS turn. Maximum forward speed.
1 above the fall line. Set up. Need large radius ski. Slalom skis ping through fall line too early. Edge angle increasing at an increasing rate.
2 In the fall line. Max edge, max pressure, slowest forward speed. Maximum rate of change of direction. So velocity as opposed to simply speed magnitude is still high.
3 after the fall line. Reducing pressure on outside ski and direction Already set for next apex. Edge rolling off at a decreasing rate.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
Hey Skimottaret. I think we nerd to be open to different models of template on the turn.
Nerds R us eh guys?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Jeeeez......
What a load of jargon / hot air this thread turned out to be.
As someone with a decent understanding of skiing have to confess I am lost
That Canadian video shows just how simple skiing is.
For sure you can over analyse every part of the turn and give it technical terms.
But you won't ever be using those terms to teach real clients.
On the L3 teaching course (when we were teaching peers) we would have been slaughtered for using some of the jargon displayed here....
Keep it simple!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
(edited) Well done to Simon Edwards (Les Deux Alpes) who passed the L4 in Hintertux.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 18-05-14 14:42; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
skimottaret wrote:
Kenny, that stuff is 3 years old and different associations use different terminology.
Yes they do don't they. So what does 'platform' mean in BASI speak?
skimottaret wrote:
Three phases has gone by the by even by most canadian guys..
That would be news to all the examiners I know. Those pictures I linked to are in the current manual.
skimottaret wrote:
I tend to use and think about long radius turns as four "phases"
That's fine, you can describe the turn however you want but you can't load the ski without a platform. Not using the word 'platform' doesn't mean you haven't got one! Unless 'load the ski' means something completely different as well.
skimottaret wrote:
transition - flatten ski , not by popping up but by projecting hips across and down hill with a small cross over
set up - extend new outside leg with high hip rolling progressively onto edge and softening inner leg allowing body to incline into turn
Load / drive phase - ski just above fall line - driving outside ski into snow and increasing edge angle
completion / release -just after fall line as forces build allow angulation and flex legs enough to develop edge biggest angles but minimal pressure to get under gate, staying low and preparing for new set up
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Ski presto you with Marco?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
(removed by author)
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 18-05-14 14:43; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yes haggis you are so right. Things have to be kept simple. However:
Even Albert Einstein (Or was it William of Occam) said words to the effect of "Explanations should be as simple as possible. But not simpler".
We're sharing technical information here and (with respect) that involves some technical content.
Anyway. This recent stuff is fairly non intimidatory. Read a few pages back to get in deep.
Any peer to peer contributions will be read with interest.
SP
It was asked "So what does 'platform' mean in BASI speak? "
1 I don't think there is any BASI specific jargon nowadays. Unless you are referring to dreadful expressions involving the words "appropriate" And "blend".
2 I take responsibility for quoting Joubert and his followers in mentioning "Platform" by which I mean an early uphill edge on the old inside ski. The skier makes a static platform on that ski by stepping uphill on to it, forming a flat ski platform and rolling the ski downhill on to its inside edge. This has the disadvantage of requiring an up-and-over popup crossover.
(Not useful if you haven't time for that, or want to send the skis under and lateral.)
We have been working on simplifying the four phases into two. "Body" and "Ski".
no science degree is required to understand these two concepts.
SkiPresto
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
^ Yip : well I have worked out there are 2 separate issues being discussed...
'Phase of the turn' and 'Rotational Separation / Countering'.
In terms of jargon the 1st page is just mental.
Anyone dare to summarise in 2 or 3 simple sentences or concepts ?
2 I take responsibility for quoting Joubert and his followers in mentioning "Platform" by which I mean an early uphill edge on the old inside ski. The skier makes a static platform on that ski by stepping uphill on to it, forming a flat ski platform and rolling the ski downhill on to its inside edge. This has the disadvantage of requiring an up-and-over popup crossover.
(Not useful if you haven't time for that, or want to send the skis under and lateral.)
Thank you. 'Flex to release'. Gotcha. You can still engage the edges high up in the turn though. See Hirscher, M. et al.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Really enjoy reading this as it is making me think and to remember stuff I used to know and use, but equally some stuff I never did use but new, and some I did not know at all.
But no matter what words you use no matter how simple or not they may be, the one word that overrules all of them FUN !
So for those reading this thread who think all this is some crazy new foreign language relax enjoy ask questions if you want but don't think you have to know all this to be able to progress. I was actually doing a lot of this stuff as many here if they did not receive instruction/coaching till they were at a pretty advanced level probably were doing as well. Those that did know had ( I would hope ) some excellent coaching and were eased into all this knowledge.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Haggis_Trap wrote:
^ Yip : well I have worked out there are 2 separate issues being discussed...
'Phase of the turn' and 'Rotational Separation / Countering'.
In terms of jargon the 1st page is just mental.
Anyone dare to summarise in 2 or 3 simple sentences or concepts ?
I think this is a pretty good explanation of the American and Canadian view.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
^ That is not bad.
I think the last 4 pages can *almost* be summarised by simply saying that....
short turns => rotational separation (between upper and lower body) is crucial to allow skis to be turned quickly
longer turns => less rotational separation is required during longer radius turns.
less separation allows a stronger body position to be adapted and bigger forces to be controlled (i.e higher speeds).
... as ever the skill needs to be adapted to the type of turn and terrain - as the video above shows well.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
SkiPresto, Cheers, interesting stuff.
Reading the above the way 'platform' is being described is a little different to the way I understand it. For example, the closest thing to a platformless turn would be braquage which gives no deflection of direction because there is nothing for the ski to grip against.
Perhaps what they are really talking about is the 'quality' of the platform(s) the ski is creating for you to stand & be balanced* against. The higher the quality the less skid.
*Of course poor balance will make for a poor quality platform.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
It just shows how the same phrase can mean different things to different people. I would have said the 'Platform' phase is the same as Skimottaret calls the 'set up' phase. i.e. creating the solid foundation of body and ski position ready to start loading and driving the skis in the turn..
PS. Those Canadian skiers do make it look really easy. If only it was.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
olderscot, and Kenny, Sorry I am not saying that there isnt a platform being developed. far from it, just using different terminology (that works for me, not BASI, CSCF or anyone elses), I have edited my post..
Kenny, what I was getting at was that a few BASI guys that had been on Interski have said the CSCF had been talking about two "phases" body and ski as Skipresto mentioned. May or may not filter into their system in the coming years... (I am a huge fan of the CSCF stuff, makes most sense to me and more so than BASI)
excellent video, I like what they are saying...
Haggis_Trap, This is a classic example of a thread (4 years old) that is about how skiing works, not how to teach skiing. Two guys are on their L4 tech exam and are Expected to know and understand in great detail the different phases of the turn and the biomechanics of how skiing works. They aren't teaching clients and probably aren't thinking about the phases of each turn when they are maching it down a steep firm black run in front of their examiners... By all means keep it simple but have the underlying knowledge. If and when you take the L2 and L3 coach module, the common theory week you will probably get into this biomechanics and theory stuff and expected to know it inside out. Not use it on the hill with clients..
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
... how many instructors does it take to screw in a light blub?
10.
1 to screw in the bulb and 9 to analyse the turns
Quote:
... and probably aren't thinking about the phases of each turn when they are maching it down a steep firm black run in front of their examiners
exactly. I doubt a WC racer is thinking about the mechanics of skiing during each turn either once race day arrives either ?
the problem with conversations like this (IMHO) is they inevitably end up using tech terms & jargon to over complicate each and every part of the turn. in reality a ski turn is one flowing movement rather than a series of specific actions (for example if you bank into the turn and generate an angle you will end up with one long leg and one short leg without thinking much about it). ski instructors love to talk purely technical - however this thread has proven the dangers of that ? The talk about counter rotation quickly getting muddied with comments about phases of turn. Followed by people debating what the term "platform" actually means...
If the explanations are "technical" then they also need to be clear and focused ?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
what dangers? That threads go off topic?, that people on SH's get exposed to technical detail when ski geeks are talking shop? That some people like talking about the technicalities of the sport as well as the beauty?
My two favourite books on skiing are by Ron LeMaster and Mark Elling. One is on "how skiing works" the other on "how to ski"... Each is over a 100 pages long, should these books be a few simple bullet points to stay clear and focused ?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
... in reality a ski turn is one flowing movement rather than a series of specific actions ...
How you think about the turn will depend very much on the individual skier. I made a big improvement to my long radius turns last season during a week of coaching when I was focusing very clearly on the different stages of the turn. Over the week I worked on each stage individually, so by the end of the week when I was "putting it back together" my performance had improved significantly. That's not to say that I will use the kind of language on display in this thread with anyone I'm teaching, but I might have conversations of this kind with another instructor (indeed, I did this morning with skimottaret by video call prompted by this thread). Lots of reasons why a 'professional' conversation might be different from a 'teaching' conversation.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Haggis_Trap wrote:
... ski instructors love to talk purely technical ...
Indeed, but also tactics, psychology, performance levels, and I've even been known to talk about kit from time to time. With some clients its a challenge to get them to think about aspects of skiing other than technical...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Kenny, Video puts it very clearly. Thanks for posting this.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I liked the video that Kenny posted but to show the other side of the argument for using technical shorthand and highly detailed language here is another video from the Canadian Technical Director explaining the Canadian approach to coaching Ski Racing... I understand and agree with everything he says but notice the language he employs to get his points across ?
... Over the week I worked on each stage individually, so by the end of the week when I was "putting it back together" my performance had improved significantly.
I like that approach for getting off a plateau, don't use it enough in my own skiing. Sport climbers do this all the time to 'work' a route before making a ground up ascent in one go.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
just stumbled across this, very interesting to read what the "top lads and lasses" are up to.
I suspect I got a toe in the water with some of this stuff. I was told on the Thurs of my L2 that I was above the level so everything now was "experiment" and wouldn't affect my result.
The trainer had me doing two things in shorts one was what I think you guys are talking about the stivot, and that was to try and deliberately do a small skid at the start of the turn, then engage edges. The other thing he had me doing was trying to do really narrow corridor with lots of grip but actively steering the skis as they deflect back, in order to control speed. Then the g*t took my poles away
rob@rar wrote:
Over the week I worked on each stage individually, so by the end of the week when I was "putting it back together" my performance had improved significantly. .
Technically, it's chaining. Deal with one link at a time in sequence, then put it all back together once you have dealt with all the links in the chain.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Had an interesting conversation (during L3 teach course) about how its almost impossible to teach a good lesson on something like "rotational separation".
While the concept might be simple there are too many scenarios (long turns / short turns / terrain) and constituent skills (pole plant, edge control, body management <etc>) to include all of that in one class. Better to focus on the individual elements if you are talking about technical development ?
The Canadian video is interesting : though right at the start he says they "don't want to get trapped into a defined model which generates robot skiers".
After all it is free
After all it is free
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Had an interesting conversation (during L3 teach course) about how its almost impossible to teach a good lesson on something like "rotational separation".
While the concept might be simple there are too many scenarios (long turns / short turns / terrain) and constituent skills (pole plant, edge control, body management <etc>) to include all of that in one class. Better to focus on the individual elements if you are talking about technical development ?
I think it's very straightforward to construct a lesson plan which deals with specific aspects of skiing, whether that be different ways of steering your skis, different elements of body management, tactical approaches to different terrain, etc, etc. The more time you have the more in depth you will be able to treat the topic. Obviously I'd plan a different lesson if I had a 2 hour private compared to an all-day clinic compared to a week long course, but I wouldn't say it's impossible to teach a good lesson on any aspect of skiing just because you only have 90 minutes on snow with your client. Surely it's about prioritising the time you have?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
^ for sure. if you have more time then you can do more stuff
something as seemingly simple as "rotational separation" clearly comprises lots of different technical skills and interacting movements?
arguably some of the movements "cause" rotational separation and others are an "effect".
no matter how much time you have its *generally* better to simplify and break it down into manageable chunks ?
makes for a better lesson AND clearer technical explanation if you focus on technical skills, such as pole plants or edge control.
rather than trying to describe or teach everything that must happen at once...
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 9-05-14 9:47; edited 1 time in total
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Haggis_Trap wrote:
something as seemingly simple as "rotational separation" clearly comprises lots of different technical skills and interacting movements?
arguably some of the movements "cause" rotational separation and others are an "effect".
no matter how much time you have its *generally* better to simplify and break it down into manageable chunks ?
makes for a better lesson AND clearer technical explanation if you focus on one skill, such as pole plants or edge control, rather than the outcome ?
Yes, agree, that's what I meant by saying you need to prioritise given whatever time constraints you have. Client comes to you with an idea that he would like to work on rotational separation, or you look at his skiing and decide that's a good thing to work on; you identify the key problems which are causing the problem with rotational separation; you set a task or focus which will help address that problem; you let the client work on that task and continue to review as they make progress. All seems very straightforward, unless I'm missing something?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Same simple advice as I give to most of my adult students on the plastic at home.
