 Poster: A snowHead
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| achilles wrote: |
| George W. Bash wrote: |
achilles, we're discussing red cords, not red herrings.
The timing of my last skirmish off-piste is hardly relevant to whether avalanche cords work.... |
But, sweet heart, it is very relevant to you saying "I don't carry a shovel, and can't recall ever skiing off-piste with any other recreational skier who has carried a shovel" - almost all skiers I ski with on any serious off-piste carry a shovel as a matter of course - and that's been the case for years. |
True, if you're carrying all the other stuff, why would you miss out the shovel? In practice though digging in most avalanche debris is nigh on impossible. (1) It's like concrete, (2) you probably just either had a major fall yourself or maybe had to hike a way or ski in some exhausting terrain (3) you're at altitude, (4) you're scared, (5) you discover that your plastic shovel simply isn't up to the job, (6) your mate's been strangled by his avalanche cord anyway.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Swiller's suggesting that the shovellers might as well be grave-diggers.
This is a cynical point of view that I don't share.
achilles - have you tried digging through avalanche debris? I think Swiller is suggesting that you should be carrying a pneumatic drill.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| George W. Bash wrote: |
Well, pardon me, but every winter we read about scores of avalanche deaths ... but few success stories attributed to transceivers.
Would anyone care to reference some 'transceiver success stories' from the past few seasons? |
I personally have used my transceiver in anger & it probably saved my mates life. We called a rescue after that & the stat that probably went down with PGHM was that they rescued an avalanche victim. I have had a number of friends that have been in similar situations. No doubt there are dozens if not hundreds of incidents like it across the alps every season. They reported as rescues, there's virtually never any report of how the rescue was carried out. That's why you don't hear of them, not cause they don't work but cause it's not considered relevant to the authorities recording them, at least not in the data they publish.
Personally i won't ski off piste with someone if it's 2 or over if they don't have a shovel, probe & transceiver. This applies to most of my friends i ski with too.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Please, this debate is sterile, it is not going anywhere new. Of the dozen or so documented cases of the use of avalanche cords 90% of the victims are dead. For completely buried avalanche victims the survival rate is around 50% where a transceiver was used to rescue the victim (Swiss and French long term data).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, well, a mate I skied with did get buried - luckily for him his head was above surface - and his mates thoughtfully dug him out. I do kinda hope that most snowheads who ski off piste are wary of conditions and don't get into trouble. I sorta hope for that with those who go in cars, too - but I still wear a seat belt.
Recently there was video taken by a victim who was wearing a helmet camera, was buried, and was dug out. I agree that if you are buried in deep, hard debris, that's probably fatal. But I think that would be so, even if one was wearing an avalanche cord. 
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 1-04-10 13:42; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| frank4short wrote: |
| George W. Bash wrote: |
Well, pardon me, but every winter we read about scores of avalanche deaths ... but few success stories attributed to transceivers.
Would anyone care to reference some 'transceiver success stories' from the past few seasons? |
I personally have used my transceiver in anger & it probably saved my mates life. We called a rescue after that & the stat that probably went down with PGHM was that they rescued an avalanche victim. I have had a number of friends that have been in similar situations. No doubt there are dozens if not hundreds of incidents like it across the Alps every season. They reported as rescues, there's virtually never any report of how the rescue was carried out. That's why you don't hear of them, not cause they don't work but cause it's not considered relevant to the authorities recording them, at least not in the data they publish.
Personally I won't ski off piste with someone if it's 2 or over if they don't have a shovel, probe & transceiver. This applies to most of my friends i ski with too. |
I also know or have met many people who have been either buried or been in a group where one or more have been buried. So the idea now being put forward by David Goldsmith that burial by avalanche is a remote possibility based on the number of incidents reported by snowheads is complete rubbish.
It is also possible to dig avalanche debris with a shovel. It's not always easy and the going does vary, but this is why transceivers are so important because they put the rescuers as close as possible to the victim every time. Cord, on the other hand, is highly unreliable, which is why its use has been abandoned.
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I agree with davidof, this argument is going nowhere. Both sides have stated their case, and explained the pros, cons and a hundred other things over and over. Now that it has descended into sniping at each other, why don't we all just shake metaphorical hands and walk away?
Each to their own and all that.
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| Quote: |
Please, this debate is sterile, it is not going anywhere new.
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No different to any other debate here then.
So, the answer to the question "Do avalanche cords save lives?" is "Yes", roughly 10% of the time.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bode Swiller - surely you aren't providing a logical summary of an argument? Not sure how everyone else will take to you ruining their fun!
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Bode Swiller, I only ski 3-4 weeks a year. In the last few years I have skied with 2 people who have been buried and witnessed a rescue on a slope I was about to ski (inbounds) where one person died. In that time I haven't witnessed a fatal road accident and only one friend has been involved in a major RTA. By your logic I need not bother with a seatbelt?
There are two key points here for me.
1) DG has been a journalist yet is totally ignoring the evidence of cords being dangerous that Davidof presented. Actually I don't think he is listening to any of us.
2) DG has presented himself in the past as an expert on various aspects of skiing, and might be regarded by visitors here as having expertise in modern off-piste safety. Yet he is advocating an approach which is 10 years or more out of date.
Transceivers are cheap and pretty easy to use. Surely the real issues now are about avoidance and search strategies?
One last question for you. When was the last time you skied off-piste with a Guide, or with others in backcountry and did not carry a beacon?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 1-04-10 15:01; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 1-04-10 17:15; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Callai wrote: |
| Bode Swiller - surely you aren't providing a logical summary of an argument? Not sure how everyone else will take to you ruining their fun! |
Yes I think Bode has rounded things up nicely. Cords have saved some lives, with more testing the 10% figure may be a bit more or a bit less but I doubt it will reach the efficacy of a beacon for a lot more inconvenience.
The avalanche ball is probably the most effective application of the avalanche cord. It has been tested by the SLF and is a complement to carrying an avalanche beacon. It probably has not gained more acceptance due to fashion reasons as David states. The cord attaching the ball to the rucksack will cut through avalanche debris, leaving you directly above the rucksack of the victim (at least). It will not help you stay on the surface.
But I said all this back in David's first avalanche cord thread in 1692 or whenever it was.
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| George W. Bash wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| Of the dozen or so documented cases of the use of avalanche cords 90% of the victims are dead. |
I don't wish to be statistically pedantic |
Given that is what you do I'm sure you did.
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You know it makes sense.
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| George W. Bash wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| Of the dozen or so documented cases of the use of avalanche cords 90% of the victims are dead. |
I don't wish to be statistically pedantic, but 90% of 12 is not a whole number. Let's say only one skier was dug out alive - what does this prove? Well, it's better than nothing, especially if we take into account the high risk of suffocation or fatal injury in the tumbling snow. We don't know the time each victim was buried, and don't actually know if their retrieval would have been quicker via transceivers. |
Transceivers are faster. You stand a very much higher chance of survival using the modern system.
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The general problem with this discussion is the remarkably low statistical sample upon which we're trying to establish the worth of avalanche cords. There has been very little experimentation and testing of them, but apparently plenty of myth and supposition passed down through generations of skiers for the past 5 decades. |
The general problem with this discussion is you and your stupidity.
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| Skiing's not very good at independent research. It's not funded. Every time a ski patrol does some avalanche blasting work there's the opportunity to test avalanche devices, and it would be good to see some definitive testing - we seem to be relying on very little work, done about 50 years ago. |
A lot of research has been done and all the data says that transceiver are best and that cord is rubbish.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 1-04-10 17:15; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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George W. Bash, do tell us all about the lift-served diversions (I see that they are 'usual' so clearly I was wrong about you not skiing much in the mountains recently) you have done this season, and we can put your comments into perspective.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
One last question for you. When was the last time you skied off-piste with a Guide, or with others in backcountry and did not carry a beacon?
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stoatsbrother, agreed, these days a guide will insist on the group at least wearing transceivers. They are not always too hot on checking whether or not the members of the group have a scoobie how to use one though. I only became aware of beacons sometime in the mid 90s AFAICR but really they have only become de rigeur in the naughties. So, for a good two decades I skied off piste without any form of protection other than chosing the terrain and the company I kept... and I am not alone there... and I'm still here... and I wear a seatbelt in my car like we all do but mainly because Plod tells us to.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Quote: |
One last question for you. When was the last time you skied off-piste with a Guide, or with others in backcountry and did not carry a beacon?
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stoatsbrother, agreed, these days a guide will insist on the group at least wearing transceivers. They are not always too hot on checking whether or not the members of the group have a scoobie how to use one though. I only became aware of beacons sometime in the mid 90s AFAICR but really they have only become de rigeur in the naughties. So, for a good two decades I skied off piste without any form of protection other than chosing the terrain and the company I kept... and I am not alone there... and I'm still here... and I wear a seatbelt in my car like we all do but mainly because Plod tells us to. |
Of course you can't choose the other people who are in your vicinity and could be stupid enough to bring a slide down on you.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 3-04-10 21:04; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Of course you can't chose the other people who are in your vicinity and could be stupid enough to bring a slide down on you. |
Just avoid the ones in the green jackets. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DB, ohh! looks like hot news. You mean a SCGB rep has done this? Give us the gen! Or tell us you mislead us.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Removed
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 1-04-10 17:15; edited 1 time in total
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| George W. Bash wrote: |
| achilles wrote: |
| George W. Bash, do tell us all about the lift-served diversions (I see that they are 'usual' so clearly I was wrong about you not skiing much in the mountains recently) you have done this season, and we can put your comments into perspective. |
I've not been on skis this season. |
Ah. You have an elastic use of the word 'usual'. But I know you wouldn't have been trying to mislead us by saying what your 'usual' action is when it isn't 'usual' at all. Heck, that would be close to lying rather than misleading, and I know we can trust you. So any of your 'usual' lift-served diversions within the last 5 years will be fine. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles, if I take a five-year, ten-year or fifteen-year break from skiing (I had a brief slide last autumn), I'll continue to refer to skiing in the present tense, in anticipation of resuming it in the future. So the word "usual" is used in that sense.
Yes, "elastic" rather than "lying", one would hope.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Quote: |
One last question for you. When was the last time you skied off-piste with a Guide, or with others in backcountry and did not carry a beacon?
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stoatsbrother, agreed, these days a guide will insist on the group at least wearing transceivers. They are not always too hot on checking whether or not the members of the group have a scoobie how to use one though. I only became aware of beacons sometime in the mid 90s AFAICR but really they have only become de rigeur in the naughties. So, for a good two decades I skied off piste without any form of protection other than chosing the terrain and the company I kept... and I am not alone there... and I'm still here... and I wear a seatbelt in my car like we all do but mainly because Plod tells us to. |
Of course you can't chose the other people who are in your vicinity and could be stupid enough to bring a slide down on you. |
Correct, but back then nobody had safety gear, you would often look back up and see people traversing directly above your line just like you still can today.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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George W. Bash, ah the brief slide at Hemel Hempstead. So no 'usual' lift-served diversion to the off-piste then. It would of course be un-snowheadian to accuse you of lying. Would 'mendacious' be better?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 1-04-10 16:05; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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No, it wouldn't be better. Behave yourself.
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brian
brian
Guest
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Here's some reading from the Swiss Federal Snow and Avalanche Service:
AVALANCHE RESCUE SYSTEMS IN SWITZERLAND: EXPERIENCE AND LIMITATIONS
7. CONCLUSIONS
If one is caught by an avalanche one has the greatest chances of survival if one is not, or only partly, buried. In the case of total burial, the survival chances are best if parts of the body or equipment is visible on the avalanche surface. Companion help is very effective. In latter years, the more frequent success of transceiver search has contributed to a positive development. The fa- vorable development in organized rescue actions can be explained by the broad distribution of mod- ern communication technology (mobile phones, radio sets) and by fast and professional rescue actions (helicopter, rescue services). Currently, out of the proven technical devices, the avalanche airbag provides the greatest chances of survival in avalanche incident. However, despite all positive developments and modern technical devices, one must never tolerate any avalanche incident - if only because of the enormous risk of severe in- jury.
Bizarrely, the chapter on avalanche cords seems to be missing.  
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You know it makes sense.
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| achilles wrote: |
| George W. Bash, ah the brief slide at Hemel Hempstead. So no 'usual' lift-served diversion to the off-piste then. It would of course be un-snowheadian to accuse you of lying. Would 'mendacious' be better? |
Yes, mendacious fits very well in this context.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 1-04-10 17:14; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| PJSki wrote: |
| achilles wrote: |
| George W. Bash, ah the brief slide at Hemel Hempstead. So no 'usual' lift-served diversion to the off-piste then. It would of course be un-snowheadian to accuse you of lying. Would 'mendacious' be better? |
Yes, mendacious fits very well in this context. |
You win, Buddy.
You decline to show your face and make your accusations face-to-face. Classic internet behaviour. Somewhat corrosive to discussion, and not very gentlemanly conduct.
You, achilles and admin are fellow sailors in the good ship snowHeads ... at least as far as that sort of language goes. "Mendacious" is your common call.
I'm afraid I don't get a lot of joy of being called a liar, and I don't think it's justified in this instance, especially from a gentleman who says he's a member of a gentleman's club.
May God bless you and all who sail with you. I'm out of here.
Hat Box, where are you?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| George W. Bash wrote: |
I'm out of here.
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You'll be back
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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With the departure of the greatly lamented DG is it now safe to point out that in the glossary in brian,s link is mentioned that the survival is assisted by.
| Quote: |
visible parts or parts of body: a part of equipment
(rope, ski, ...) or a part of the body (foot,
hand) of a completely buried person is visible
on the avalanche surface and allowed fast location
and recovery by other people |
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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George W. Bash, I for one hope you do get to ski again soon.
I don't regard your postings on this thread as mendacious, but you are certainly selectivein your interpretation of the facts, and overly coy about your recent skiing.
Anyway, good luck and let us know when you do start a blog.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| achilles wrote: |
| DB, ohh! looks like hot news. You mean a SCGB rep has done this? Give us the gen! Or tell us you mislead us. |
Who mentioned the SCGB? but as you did why are there no SCGB reps in St Anton, Austria?
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DB, ....cos according to SCGB it doesn't even snow in Austria.... (well that was what was written about the conditions in December)
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DB,
| DB wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| Of course you can't chose the other people who are in your vicinity and could be stupid enough to bring a slide down on you. |
Just avoid the ones in the green jackets. |
You didn't mean to refer to SCGB reps when you referred to green jackets? So to whom where you referring? IIRC the current ski school director at St A is anti-SCGB repping - but why don't you ask the Club? It's been a while since I was a member myself.
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FAQ
