 Poster: A snowHead
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I was once skied into while standing at the side of a wide trail with a group I was teaching. Visibility was excellent and at a guess we could be seen at least 200m away. There must have been a good 75m space for this punter to ski past in, but no, he managed to thread his way past several of my class before crashing right in to my back. First I knew of it was the blow; next I knew I was on the ground with one leg under me and my knee screaming sweary words at me. His first words were, "I didn't know you were with a group." I still don't quite know what that was supposed to mean. I was too shocked and in too much pain, not to mention thinking out what to do about my class if I couldn't ski on to answer, which is probably just as well considering the language I might have used! "What the f**** has that to do with anything" was the least I might have come up with  This being in the United States, he was a very worried looking man and I should have called the ski patrol or taken his lift pass off him myself but was too sore to think straight. Managed to ski on, but it took over a year before I could bend my leg fully. In that resort, Loon Mountain in New Hampshire, anyone caught sliding irresponsibly was taken off the hill and made to watch a long safety video before getting their ski passes back. Easy to manage that in a compact resort like Loon Mountain, but not really practical perhaps in huge spaces like Tignes/Val d'Isère?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ccl, sounds as if the place is appropriately named.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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has anyone ever driven a car down a piste? And if so did they manage to avoid running over any kids?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I think the skier's code has been done to death but I stick my my view that the points do not always add up to a an easily identifiable finger of blame in any incident. They could be condensed to a single "Don't be a muppet" rule which would help considerably. Perhaps augmented by rule 2 - "If you don't think you are being a muppet you probably are to someone"
I have to confess my sympathy for Jollyrodger was somewhat tempered by an admission he was under a blind roller and think that some of the attitude thrown at manicpb shows a very narrow minded view of the world (although I appreciate that there is fair amount of trolling included here).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowpatrol wrote: |
Helen Beaumont,ding ding ding.. wow..i wasnt expecting anyone to to admit to anything..well for the record..exceeding the speed limit is ILLEGAL and can result in a jail term.
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It is certainly illegal, but a charge of speeding can't result in a jail term.
Dangerous driving can, but that is a separate thing to speeding, and you don't generally get convicted of dangerous driving just for speeding.
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.taking a roller on to the piste is NOT ILLEGAL and will never ever ever result in a jail term even if someone is killed.
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Wrong. If a court decides that death was as a result of your negligence or recklessness, then you certainly could be convicted of manslaughter, and face a jail term as a result.
People have been convicted of manslaughter where they have been considered responsible for collisions on piste which have killed others.
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.speeding in your car or taking a blind roller on to a piste.. which is worse..you decide |
That depends very much on the circumstances of the speeding.
Somebody driving at 94mph in a built up area with a 30 limit is almost certainly driving very dangerously, and if caught will be charged with dangerous driving (if they kill somebody then with causing death by dangerous driving as in the case of the copper convicted last week). But somebody driving at 80mph on a 70 limit motorway with good weahter and light traffic is not endangering anybody, and if caught by an automatic camera will face the standard 3 points and £60. He wouldn't evere even be stopped for speeding by a live traffic policeman at that speed.
Driving in such a way that you cannot stop within what you can see to be clear is always stupid and dangerous, and so is skiing in a similar manner.
Incidentally, like most drivers, I do speed (and currently have 6 points from being caught twice), but would never drive without my seatbelt, nor while drunk, and have never deliberately jumped a red light.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| snowpatrol wrote: |
Helen Beaumont,ding ding ding.. wow..i wasnt expecting anyone to to admit to anything..well for the record..exceeding the speed limit is ILLEGAL and can result in a jail term.
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It is certainly illegal, but a charge of speeding can't result in a jail term.
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Exactly. I don't care what speed people travel at around the slopes, just so long as they do it without unnecessary risk to other slope users. Same with jumps on or off piste; just so long as it is done with due care and attention to other people then who cares what happens. In fact a skilled snowboarder taking a long jump off a roller is a great thing to see, providing they don't fly too close to somebody down slope of them.
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| Quote: |
| But somebody driving at 80mph on a 70 limit motorway with good weahter and light traffic is not endangering anybody, and if caught by an automatic camera will face the standard 3 points and £60. He wouldn't evere even be stopped for speeding by a live traffic policeman at that speed. |
So I certainly wouldn't be jailed for speeding, as I wouldn't dream of exceeding the speed limit in a built up area, and do so only occasionally on the motorway, these days most of the traffic on the A1 (M) apart from trucks are doing over 70. And as for the M6, they all drive like maniacs over there.
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| fatbob wrote: |
I think the skier's code has been done to death but I stick my my view that the points do not always add up to a an easily identifiable finger of blame in any incident.
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If you are trying to find one person to blame, then no they don't.
If you accept that one incident can be caused by multiple people being at fault, then yes they do.
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They could be condensed to a single "Don't be a muppet" rule which would help considerably. Perhaps augmented by rule 2 - "If you don't think you are being a muppet you probably are to someone"
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Absolutely. As I have already said, they are really just an attempt to codify what should be common sense.
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I have to confess my sympathy for Jollyrodger was somewhat tempered by an admission he was under a blind roller
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He has since said he was at the side of the piste, but even so, you should never stop where you can't be seen if you can avoid it. So yes, he was probably not completely innocent.
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and think that some of the attitude thrown at manicpb shows a very narrow minded view of the world (although I appreciate that there is fair amount of trolling included here). |
I don't (but then having been one of the ones throwing most of that "attitude" I wouldn't, would I?).
If it was a one off, then fair enough, but his post suggested it is something he does fairly often, and he showed no understanding of why that is wrong.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rayscoops, Either way he was responsible for the death by negligence and I am convinced that a prosecution could be brought in the circs snowpatrol, describes.
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beequin, I seem to recall it was bit of a 'two skiers converging' type accident. but my point I suppose is that even if one is technically in the right (aqnd not at fault - down hill skier and all that) but you have had a few drinks (in excess the UK drink/drive limit for example) and are unfortunate to be involved with a fatal collision. then you are likely to be convicted.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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beequin, I think you'll find he was fined and placed on probation as he is standing in this summer's State elections in Thuringia, where he is the leader of the CDU (conservatives).
In March 1989 I was taken out as a result of a "buzzing" action of a beginner in my class by some rather drunken unemployed young men from Munich. According to the police then it was fairly common to have this kind of hooliganism on a Thursday as that was the day they received their Giros. Thanks to the descriptions given by my class, two of the three were apprehended and their passes taken away from them. This was a bad year for snow and all of us were squeezing into an ever-decreasing area of snow in St Johann in Tirol. I was using my body to protect my class as I bought them down a funnel section on to a flat ski path one at a time. The buzzers deliberately skied into the path of my solitary descending beginner and he lost control as did they - I was taken out and had my knee destroyed in the process. My class, being tucked in behind me were OK but actually got detailed descriptions which were useful to the police when we reported the incident. It took the best part of 5 years and 25 operations to restore most of the functionality and I still ski with a brace on that knee just as a security measure.
I think our perception is that the pistes are more dangerous because people do ski faster for whatever reason and there are more people skiing than 20 years ago, but the resorts have also expanded considerably. Also the trend to replace drag lifts with chairs enables more people to reach areas way beyond their ability to ski in a controlled manner. I don't think it is a snowboarder versus skier, or young versus old, or any other kind of contest. As in everything there are some very selfish, arrogant people out there who do not give a toss about anything or anyone except their enjoyment. It is not a particularly French, British, German, Russian, or any other national trait, it just seems to be a sad reflection on the way society in general.
I do not take the last run down the hill any more unless it is after the pistes have closed and I'm coming down with liftie friends. The ignorance of the basic safety rules and responsibilities makes it just too dangerous. As with my accident, alcohol plays a huge role in these accidents as well, but I can't see the bars and restaurants refusing to give out beer and schnapps etc, can you?
Sue 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| I got taken out from behind by a speeding boarder on a ridiculously overcrowded piste i..... for changing direction erratically (true-ish, as I turned suddenly to avoid a patch of ice) ....... I think that some of the blame lies with resorts. Relying on skiers to observe the Alpine Code isn't working; |
– it seems you are falling foul of FIS Code 1 and 2 and without this erratic manoeuvre there would have been no accident. i think some of the blame lies with you. |
rayscoops, I hope your post was intended to be read as irony or sarcasm; if not, it's absolute nonsense. Breaking the rhythm of a series of turns to avoid a natural hazard is responsible skiing and is, in fact, required by FIS Code 2 which says:
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| He must adapt his speed and manner of skiing or snowboarding to his personal ability and to the prevailing conditions of terrain, snow and weather |
As for the overtaking boarder, he fell short of FIS Codes 3 and 4:
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A skier or snowboarder coming from behind must choose his route in such a way that he does not endanger skiers or snowboarders ahead.
A skier or snowboarder may overtake another skier or snowboarder... provided that he leaves enough space for the overtaken skier or snowboarder to make any voluntary or involuntary movement. |
Other than in exceptional circumstances, the uphill, faster moving skier is always to blame in an accident. It's notable that you chose to ignore my earlier comment that my highly experienced personal instructor who watched the entire incident from the bottom of the slope advised me that I had done nothing wrong and that the blame lay entirely with the speeding boarder.
Anyone who blames a collision on an erratic skier in front of them is a dangerous fool who needs to find another sport.
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| Quote: |
| Anyone who blames a collision on an erratic skier in front of them is a dangerous fool who needs to find another sport. |
Anyone who carries out wildly erratic movements on a busy piste is creating a hazard to themselves (as well as others) as there is only so many possible course trajectories for people to take. For a beginner, yes then someone attempting to pass should give greater leeway for unintended actions, but for more experienced skiers if you are making a major change of direction that someone behind could not reasonably expect then surely it's common sense and common courtesy, as well as required to be in complience with the FIS guidelines that you check that your new path is clear and you are not going to obstruct someone else in a way that could not reasonably have been expected .
Absolutely agree with those who say that most (but not all) collisions if considered against the FIS guidelines have some degree of shared fault.
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You know it makes sense.
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| manicpb wrote: |
Some times I travel at 80mph on the motorway!
And if I have been aware of my surroundings for a while I don't always check my blind spot before pulling into the fast lane!  |
Many of us do but that's not the best of analogies. How do you deal with thick fog - slow down or just assume there's nothing in the way?
Of more relevance would be whether you travel down a country lane with blind bends and bridges at a speed which would leave you unable to stop should you encounter a previously unseen pedestrian, horse or tractor in the road. Perhaps, using your logic, they shouldn't be there but hitting any of them would legally be your fault.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Jonny Jones, I disagree
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Red Leon wrote: |
| manicpb wrote: |
Some times I travel at 80mph on the motorway!
And if I have been aware of my surroundings for a while I don't always check my blind spot before pulling into the fast lane! |
Many of us do but that's not the best of analogies. How do you deal with thick fog - slow down or just assume there's nothing in the way?
Of more relevance would be whether you travel down a country lane with blind bends and bridges at a speed which would leave you unable to stop should you encounter a previously unseen pedestrian, horse or tractor in the road. Perhaps, using your logic, they shouldn't be there but hitting any of them would legally be your fault. |
Very good response Red Lion, however as rayscoop said I am guilty of flaming an argument here!
I don't think I'll be able to change a few opinions on myself on here, however I'm just going to give one last reply. When I say I leap off rollers I mean as I'm coming down I generally like to think I am watching 90% of slope users within view, now as I aproach a roller I will see the German in the pink one piece go over the top of the roller, go out of view then see him/her pop back into view. Sometimes I may wait for several users to go over the roller I'm eyeing up.
Then when I do actually hit the roller I am rarley more than waist height with my legs sucked up, If I extend my legs I will actually touch back down (that is the joy of rollers, a lot of hang time and being bearly off the ground). I think there may be a misunderstanding as to what a 'roller' is, it's not in my opinion where the piste drops away (guess I'd say to my mates look out for this great 'drop off') which is where I think a lot of these accidents may be happening which would not be responsable at all without a spotter.
As I say I'll answer any thing serious anyone has to ask, but I've not handed out any name calling (unlike many) and will leave my response at that. I apologise for flaming the fire in the early stages of this thread!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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alex_heney, Helen Beaumont, my point is that you exceed the speed limit in your car but get your knickers in a twist about skiers/boarders skiing,in your opinion,recklessly...........................????????????????????????so you stick to the rules on piste where an accident that causes a death is extremely rare.. but not in your car when having/causing an accident could very likely result in death?????go figure  you guys are selective to suit yourselves
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 14-04-09 19:00; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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snowpatrol, Are you Powderslut?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| manicpb wrote: |
[When I say I leap off rollers I mean as I'm coming down I generally like to think I am watching 90% of slope users within view, now as I aproach a roller I will see the German in the pink one piece go over the top of the roller, go out of view then see him/her pop back into view. Sometimes I may wait for several users to go over the roller I'm eyeing up.
Then when I do actually hit the roller I am rarley more than waist height with my legs sucked up, If I extend my legs I will actually touch back down (that is the joy of rollers, a lot of hang time and being bearly off the ground). I think there may be a misunderstanding as to what a 'roller' is, it's not in my opinion where the piste drops away (guess I'd say to my mates look out for this great 'drop off') which is where I think a lot of these accidents may be happening which would not be responsable at all without a spotter |
If you have, and maintain, a good view of people below you and are confident that jumping off a roller won't lead to any nasty surprises I can't see what the problem is.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar
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| If you have, and maintain, a good view of people below you and are confident that jumping off a roller won't lead to any nasty surprises I can't see what the problem is. |
I think what we might be witnessing here is someone reappraising what they do in light of what has been said in this thread.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| PJSki wrote: |
rob@rar
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| If you have, and maintain, a good view of people below you and are confident that jumping off a roller won't lead to any nasty surprises I can't see what the problem is. |
I think what we might be witnessing here is someone reappraising what they do in light of what has been said in this thread. |
I can't belive I'm now being sucked back into this but...In reapprising do you mean changing my original statement or changing my views on how I board?
Because I have done neither, however yes I have been to work and not the pub all day and have just rewritten the way I ride in a more Daily Mail kind of way (could'nt resist...sorry! ). I can't change the fact I've had close calls with people on the lower side of rollers, and if you think I'm being reckless then I shall continue to ride recklessly.
Now I really am going to try to step back from this thread!
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Can you stop doing that please? It's giving me a headache.
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| snowpatrol wrote: |
| alex_heney, Helen Beaumont, my point is that you exceed the speed limit in your car but get your knickers in a twist about skiers/boarders skiing,in your opinion,recklessly...........................????????????????????????so you stick to the rules on piste where an accident that causes a death is extremely rare.. but not in your car when having/causing an accident could very likely result in death?????go figure you guys are selective to suit yourselves |
If someone drives like that, they're reckless.
Does that means they can't call out the reckless skiers on the slope? NO!
But someone said flying over rollers WITHOUT a clear view of landing ON PISTE is NOT reckless. The analogy of driving around blind curves in build-up area far exceeding speed limit fits.
BOTH are reckless.
One can say "I don't care" and continue to drive and ride that way. But to argue it's NOT reckless is flying in the face of reason.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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manicpb,
| Quote: |
| I can't belive I'm now being sucked back into this but...In reapprising do you mean changing my original statement or changing my views on how I board? |
The latter. I can't read your mind, but I can read what you've written...well just about.
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| manicpb wrote: |
| I can't change the fact I've had close calls with people on the lower side of rollers, and if you think I'm being reckless then I shall continue to ride recklessly. |
Says it all , doesn't it. I don 't know why I'm bothering to make a point. There's none as deaf as won't hear.
But I will....... If you landed on either the student who had fallen on a blue piste below a crest the other day in Kitzbühel or the instructor who had stopped to help her, that would be OK then? Their fault for being there? The instructor's fault for taken an intermediate on to a blue slope? The learner's fault for falling in such a risky place? Should have known better shouldn't they both? And yes, that was me and one of my class, of course.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 14-04-09 19:41; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Think I'm starting to be glad that some of the fun police & 'el&safety' brigade do their skiing abroad or Scottish Snowsports would be completely shafted! 
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| ccl wrote: |
| manicpb wrote: |
| I can't change the fact I've had close calls with people on the lower side of rollers, and if you think I'm being reckless then I shall continue to ride recklessly. |
Says it all , doesn't it. I don 't know why I'm bothering to make a point. There's none as deaf as won't hear.
But I will....... If you landed on either the student who had fallen on a blue piste below a crest the other day in Kitzbühel or the instructor who had stopped to help her, that would be OK then? Their fault for being there? |
No crossed skis put up hill to show a signal of distress?
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You know it makes sense.
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Of course, cleverclogs - but there is an appreciable moment between the event and getting your skis off and trudging up the slope to put them in place. That could be just the moment you arrive in mid-air.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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manicpb,
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| just don't get stopping below rollers because I think a few snowHeads are living in denial of there bad practices! I couldn't tell you who though! |
I believe I mentioned that standing in 'dead man's ground' wasn't a good idea back on page one of this thread. But perhaps you only learned to read by page two?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Is using the up-line of a T-bar as a moving slalom course bad practice then?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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manicpb,
Sorry, this has incensed me. You said if you could see over hedges on country lanes, you would go for it. What if you cannot? Do you just keep on going at speed? I drive a lot on single carriage lanes. If you cannot see, you slow and if necessary stop and beep your horn to alert oncoming drivers. Have you passed (or even taken) your test? You have obviously taken your lack of skills onto the piste and you are a death and/or serious injury waiting to happen. All you need to tell now is that you text and/or take calls whilst you are driving/skiing. You are a boy racer and you need to grow up. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| genepi wrote: |
| snowpatrol, Are you Powderslut? |
bingo !!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And I've just realised I've missed three pages of posting but it doesn't change what I wrote a jot, manicpb, viewpoint is amoral and dangerous.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Aneira, do you drive at 20mph for mile after mile on single track roads.....
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snowpatrol,
but you are unlikely to find a child/beginner/nervous person in the situation you describe and if you do, FIS is less likely to damn you than on piste
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Winterhighland, I'm shocked at your posts. 2 posters have admitted to skiing/riding recklessly and appear to be proud of it. I worked in Scotland for a good long while and never saw any of the really scary skiers/boarders that we see these days in the alps. This is not fun spoiling. they are spoiling the fun for the vast majority of responsible skiers. I just didn't expect to hear support for these vile creatures from you. 
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FAQ
