 Poster: A snowHead
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tuxpoo, i did say in my view. i dont have any stats but i see a lot of slow speed clatters involving boarders coming in from behind. One mans opinion though, i dont mean to sound anti boarder.
as rayscoops, points out some of it is due to the fact that boarding is easier to get to an early stage intermediate than skiing is. People dont need as many lessons to get past the beginner point and they can get around a hill much quicker, but they may have missed out on the basics of safety and mountain etiquette.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, i'm sorry, but you are coming across as anti-boarder. i've seen more bad behaviour by skiers than i have of boarders. that's not to say i haven't seen bad behaviour by boarders, just that i've seen more by skiers. i think slope etiquette needs to be learned and adhered to by ALL slope users, not just "this group" or "that group".
it could, of course, be due to the fact that there have been more skiers than boarders in the resorts i've been to.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm gonna print this thread off and next time I'm involved in an "incident", gonna give it all the relevant parties, including the snow rozzers..................
By the time the D.A. gets it, it won't even go to trial.....................
John.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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BCjohnny, just us Brits who do not know what the heck we are doing on the mountain 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The only significant factor I can see which connects the worst example of behaviour on the slopes is age. Teenagers being much more likely to straight line it, with the odd heel-toss to change direction, although by no means exclusively so. I saw a an entire family of rubbish and potentially dangerous skiers a couple of days ago, where their late-teens childrn seemed to take a lead in excessive speed from both their parents!
In my limited experience boarders seem to take many more risks with avalanche safety than skiers do, maybe reflecting the relative ease of getting off piste on a board?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| In my limited experience boarders seem to take many more risks with avalanche safety than skiers do, maybe reflecting the relative ease of getting off piste on a board? |
or maybe reflecting the relative ease of getting back onto the piste too !
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| rob@rar, I think that all the way through the thread, you are dealing with "ideals". Just looking at your quote above, you talk about what you would do. However, you need to accept that the average skier does not have your ability level. They may try to slow down, but in doing that, they would need to turn...possibly into another skier. |
Yes, that's a fair point about relative ability levels. But what concerns me is that a number of people seem to take the view that "accidents happen" and there is little need to try to work towards "ideals".
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Do you have any examples of any these "number of people"?
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I'm not naive enough to think that collisions can be entirely avoided, but the sooner that the majority of people accept that the uphill skier* has the responsibility to avoid the downhill skier (with very few exceptions) then the sooner the number and/or severity of accidents will diminish.
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I think all of us on here do accept that.
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My ire is reserved for a small number of skiers whose disregard for the safety of other people around them is breath-taking, not for the vast majority of people who are getting on with enjoying themselves and take due care of their line and speed. I'm sure that the majority could do more in terms of occasionally taking a slightly more cautious line or speed, and I definitely include myself in this group, but by and large it isn't skiers in this majority who end up killing people. |
Agreed. It just seems from some of your posts that you may be including some other posters in that number, on very flimsy evidence (apart from LechBob, who provided quite solid evidence  )
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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[quote="alex_heney"]
| rob@rar wrote: |
| rayscoops wrote: |
| As a boarder if I catch an edge and fall in the path of an 'up slope' skier - who is at fault |
The up slope skier is.
It is not that simple (see below).
| Quote: |
The example you quote of drivers deliberately trying to cause a crash only succeeds if the driver behind does not leave enough stopping space for the speed they are traveling at. I do my best to ensure when skiing I leave either enough stopping space or "change of direction" space for people below me. Sometimes this means giving them a wide berth (very wide in the case of boarders  ) and sometimes it means slowing down. |
The situation he quoted was one which does happen occasionally, whereby somebody will overtake you, then pull in immediately they are past, aand slam on the brakes. They never gave you the chance to establish a "safe gap". The occasions I have read abuot this happening have usually been an insurance scam.
But a similar situation could happen in skiing, where somebody has just overtaken you, or is doing so while cutting across your path, then has a sudden fall. In such a situation, the up-hill skier really may have no chance of avoiding a collision, and through no fault of their own.
That is one of the very rare situations which I would say are more a result of bad luck than anything else. |
The rules I know specifically cover this by stating that you must leave room when overtaking
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Know and Observe the Code below - It's YOUR responsibility
Know your ability and always stay in control and be able to stop and avoid other people or objects. It is your responsibility to stay in control on the ground and in the air.
Take lessons from qualified professional instructors, to learn and progress.
As you proceed downhill or overtake another person, you must avoid the people below and beside you.
Do not stop where you obstruct a trail or run, or are not visible from above.
When entering a trail or run or starting downhill, look uphill and give way to others.
When riding a chairlifts use the restraining devices. Always use suitable restraints to prevent runaway skiing/boarding equipment. Ensure your equipment is in good condition.
Observe and obey all signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails or runs and out of closed areas.
Before using any lift you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload safely.
Do not ski, snowboard, ride a lift or undertake any other alpine activity if your ability is impaired by drugs or alcohol.
If you are involved in, or witness an accident, alert Ski Patrol, remain at the scene and identify yourself to the Ski Patrol.
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little tiger, Avoiding them (as required by the code you quote) is not quite the same thing as making sure there is enough space that if you fall as you pass them, you won't be too close in front of them.
But my main point was that if that happens, it isn't really the fault of the "uphill skier".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Like most of us I have nothing more than anecdotal evidence, but in the past 12 months I have experienced my first collision and recently a very near miss.
The collision was last season, I was on a snow board having switched disciplines after 18 years of skiing. I was deliberately travelling fast, trying to cover a flat section linking two runs. For those of you that know it, I was at Sunshine, trying to get from Lookout Mountain to the Jack Rabbit chair (see map). Just as I went past the Teepee Town chair I was hit from the side at high speed by a skier who was exiting a perpendicular run. I was knocked a long way, ploughing right through the lift line, but other than my split lip there were no other injuries. I would have to say that I truly believe the skier was at fault, because he collided with me when I was not deviating from a line and he approached me from behind, however the extent of the impact was entirely due to my own speed and as he was entering my (blue) run from a green run, it is reasonable to assume that he was the less experienced party. I consider myself and others to have been very lucky and find it hard to really pin blame.
The near miss came a couple of days ago. I was on skis and enjoying some fantastic conditions on Goats Eye with a great deal of powder just off the main runs. I decided to come down the right hand edge of one piste, having great fun doing lots of rapid turns through a narrow 'corridor' of powder. I could see a boarder stationary below me towards the right hand side of the main run. He had his back to me, but I judged that if he did move he was more likely to head towards the centre of the run, so I elected to pass him on the right. Just as I reached him, he set off right, without looking uphill and directly into my tracks. Instinct took over and I turned right, left would have almost certainly had me pass over the tail of his board. I missed him and headed straight into the nearest tree, which luckily for me had been felled and was nothing more than a stump. There was tremendous impact of my knee on the stump and both skis detached, one travelling a few feet down hill under the powder. I was in a fair amount of pain and it took about 10 minutes to find my ski before I could get back down the hill. The boarder didn't stop, but then again why should he, he was probably completely unaware of me being there let alone my crash.
I am typing this with a knee that is still sore, but should be well enough to get out tomorrow. I am very willing to accept that I could have done something to avoid both of these incidents, I am after all a skier of only 18 years experience and a boarder of only 1 years experience, I am not perfect, but I don't believe anyone else is either. I do believe I am experienced on mountain just as others are on the roads, but accidents happen there to experienced drivers all the time. I could be safer on skis/board, I could be safer on the roads, I don't believe I am dangerous or reckless on either and if I am unfortunate to have a collision then I just hope that all involved at fortunate enough to escape with nothing more than bruised egos.
We all see idiots in all walks of life, those who seek their own thrills at the expense of all others around them. I don't believe there are more idiots on the slope than anywhere else, but we engage in a sport/passtime where the consequences are unfortunately often greater than elsehwere. Trying to apportion blame is little comfort when the worst happens and trying to legislate against genuine mistakes and out right stupidity is pretty futile. We all accept the dangers getting behind the wheel, why should we see our favorite passtimes as being any different.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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On the one hand, for the majority of cases there's no such thing as a "true accident". Many factors must have been present for an undesirable situation to materialize. Usually due to one or both party NOT doing enough to avoid the situation leading up to the "accident" until it's no longer avoidable.
On the other hand, we being humans are not perfect. We do sometimes make mistakes. And sometimes an "unlucky" combination of such human errors culminated into a true "accident".
I can think of a hyperthetical "true accident" where an uphill skier had a heart attack/stroke and lost conciousness, then slide uncontrollably into the downhill skier. And if unfortunate enough, hit the wrong place that lead to serious injuries. Unlikely, but not impossible.
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I've already posted 7 contributions to this thread expressing how I feel about 'just an accident' but I really think that teaching the analogy about learning to drive is worth extending to all new snowsporters to keep us and them safer. Someone said that instructors don't discourage learners falling and indeed they suggest that if a learner skier or boarder isn't falling, that they aren't trying hard enough. Imagine if your driving instructor had said the same thing to you when you learned to drive ... "Don't worry about my car or theirs mate, accidents are all part of the driving experience, if you're not crashing, you're not learning." ...  We'd all think that was b0llocks wouldn't we. 
Anyway, maybe I was lucky in that a fall as a result of a sh1ttily exercised emergency hockey stop move some years back that left me with a temporarily crippling grade 3 tear of my left gastrocnemius at the end of my 2nd skiing week (and put paid to competitive running for 6 months) changed my attitude to falling completely and caused me to adopt the proverbial 'control freak' attitude. That certainly didn't make me a less adventurous skier (and hasn't stopped me from having some spectacular wipeouts) but it did get me focussed on learning the control techniques and moderation that when I'm around other people, I'm unlikely to be the one doing the crashing into. Also, 110 days worth of skiing and knowledge of my own and other peoples limitations has taught me that it simply isn't worth the risk of playing chicken in a cat track or schussing while approaching a lift queue or the junction of runs. I also firmly believe that fitness levels (or lack of) contribute to the kind of sloppiness on the snow that means that inexperienced and fatigued skiers and boarders are often tempted to point, shoot and 'hope for the best' rather than scrub speed or move to a different part of the piste. I do about 40 miles of fell running a week plus some cycling so have got strong legs but I'm still aware that on a long red or black piste blast, they are beginning to tire and I take account of that.
I know that none of this can make anyone immune to danger either from their own or more worryingly, other peoples incompetence but people need to accept that at the heart of it, what causes almost all accidents is incompetence. Either your incompetence, theirs or a combination of both. So when I'm around other people and my skis cross or my turn doesn't execute quite how I planned it or my stop took a little longer than I thought it would, I don't kid myself that it's all part of the learning curve or that it's just a bit of bad luck. I'm disappointed about the incompetence that I shouldn't have allowed come out that might compromise other people's safety. But when I screw up attempting to drop off a cornice or nearly lose it when making turns on 45 degrees of soft Scottish snow and there's nobody below me to hurt (or to see me screw up ), that's not incompetence, that's all part of the learning curve. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| moffatross wrote: |
I've already posted 7 contributions to this thread expressing how I feel about 'just an accident' but I really think that teaching the analogy about learning to drive is worth extending to all new snowsporters to keep us and them safer. Someone said that instructors don't discourage learners falling and indeed they suggest that if a learner skier or boarder isn't falling, that they aren't trying hard enough. Imagine if your driving instructor had said the same thing to you when you learned to drive ... "Don't worry about my car or theirs mate, accidents are all part of the driving experience, if you're not crashing, you're not learning." ... We'd all think that was b0llocks wouldn't we.
Anyway, maybe I was lucky in that a fall as a result of a sh1ttily exercised emergency hockey stop move some years back that left me with a temporarily crippling grade 3 tear of my left gastrocnemius at the end of my 2nd skiing week (and put paid to competitive running for 6 months) changed my attitude to falling completely and caused me to adopt the proverbial 'control freak' attitude. That certainly didn't make me a less adventurous skier (and hasn't stopped me from having some spectacular wipeouts) but it did get me focussed on learning the control techniques and moderation that when I'm around other people, I'm unlikely to be the one doing the crashing into. Also, 110 days worth of skiing and knowledge of my own and other peoples limitations has taught me that it simply isn't worth the risk of playing chicken in a cat track or schussing while approaching a lift queue or the junction of runs. I also firmly believe that fitness levels (or lack of) contribute to the kind of sloppiness on the snow that means that inexperienced and fatigued skiers and boarders are often tempted to point, shoot and 'hope for the best' rather than scrub speed or move to a different part of the piste. I do about 40 miles of fell running a week plus some cycling so have got strong legs but I'm still aware that on a long red or black piste blast, they are beginning to tire and I take account of that.
I know that none of this can make anyone immune to danger either from their own or more worryingly, other peoples incompetence but people need to accept that at the heart of it, what causes almost all accidents is incompetence. Either your incompetence, theirs or a combination of both. So when I'm around other people and my skis cross or my turn doesn't execute quite how I planned it or my stop took a little longer than I thought it would, I don't kid myself that it's all part of the learning curve or that it's just a bit of bad luck. I'm disappointed about the incompetence that I shouldn't have allowed come out that might compromise other people's safety. But when I screw up attempting to drop off a cornice or nearly lose it when making turns on 45 degrees of soft Scottish snow and there's nobody below me to hurt (or to see me screw up ), that's not incompetence, that's all part of the learning curve. |
I agree with most of what you say, but driving instructors have an extra brake and clutch and do allow you to mess up, but they are also in control of the car, and only intervene when something is about to go wrong and is likely to casue an accident
We all need to accept responsibility for our action, and in most cases some one in a collision on the piste is at fault, but sometimes both are equally at fault, and that may well be the best way of defining an accident ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Timmaah wrote: |
| This is a ridiculous topic. As if you would willingly hit another skier. |
Don't think I've seen anyone willingly hit another skier on the slopes. But I've seen more than a few stupidly hit other slope users. Are you OK with collisions just because they aren't done willingly? |
No, but I can understand that they happen.
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Poster: A snowHead
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First time post for me, looks like a great site.
Got to say, only time I've come close to crashing into another skier is when I was 'bombing' down the side of the piste, and I mean within inches of the edge, when an inexperienced skier traversing the whole slope skied right up to the edge and stopped leaving me knowhere to go. I managed to jump her skis but in the process she panicked and fell (she was stationery at the time).
The main problem is that beginners have very little tuition in what other slope users might be doing, simply teaching them that the uphill skier should look out for those downhill isn't enough, all skiers have responsibility to make sure their stopping position is safe and when travelling slowly be aware that other skiers will catch up very quickly.
Ultimately though I'll do everything I can to avoid hitting another skier including taking the fall myself.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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paul10rc, welcome to snowHeads - and happy new year!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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paul10rc, welcome to
Why do people "bomb" down the side of the piste anyway? If the FIS rules say you should stop at the side of the piste rather than in the middle, isn't it logical to work out that the side is where there are likely to be people standing around?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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moffatross, you are probably correct that in most circumstances you should be able to avoid collisions as the up-slope skier if you are skiing responsibly, and I am quite a defensive boarder and have not really collided with anyone (but have come to a stop within touching distance of a few), but i have been crashed in to loads of times, once when a boarder came flying in the air out of the woods at the edge of the piste and landed on me, once by a skier who did not change his line (my mate was even more up slope and saw it) and basically skied in to the back of me on an empty piste (and then complained that i should have been boarding in a straighter line), and many more, but there have been incidents where I feel that as the down hill skier my actions were the main reason for the near miss and had I been a bit more careful or took my own evasive action, then the up-slope skier would not have had reason to try to avoid me in any event.
eng_ch, I regularly stay to the edge of the piste to avoid the heavy traffic, it is after all part of the piste, and avoid any one stopped on the edge in the same way I avoid those stopped in the middle of the piste
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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eng_ch, damn good question. Thinking of those long paths home, the poor beginner who simply cannot snowplough any further, because his legs are hurting so much - where should he stop for a rest? Precisely where the kamikaze local lads like to straightline. You're right, bombing a place where civilians may lurk is not acceptable. Oops, sorry, wrong thread.
paul10rc, welcome to snowHeads. It's a friendly place, for the most part, but it isn't unusual for a first post to be given a good mauling! 
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Hurtle,
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rayscoops, keeping to the side is fine. But I'd have thought it was the worst place to be going at any speed
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Pertinent debate as I got hit on a beginners piste a couple of days ago while stopped explaining edging to my 4 year old. The skier that hit me was definitely in the wrong - an adult that should have been in ski school not careering around out of control on a beginners slope. The guy didn't even say sorry.
You have to remember that if you hit a young or elderly skier at speed you can kill them or end their skiing career. I personally think that beginners pistes are no place for high speed skiing, no matter how good the skier. And yes, I'm guilty of it but hope I've learned my lesson.
Is the problem high speed lifts? Too many skiers on a given piste?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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davidof, lack of numbers may well mean people will ski even quicker, but whatever the rights and wrongs a high speed collision is a lot more dangerous than a low speed collision ? but speed on beginner areas is not good, unless there is no one around to hit
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Lechbob, I pointed out, on the other thread, some mitigating factors and rule breaking by that numpty who turned in to you, but you are still 'banged to rights'
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rayscoops,
Yes but I'm still smarting. I'm destroying the evidence now.
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You know it makes sense.
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Well here in les arcs, there's been a number of collisions I've seen and a number of near misses - I myself nearly had a head on crash with someone, when I was skiing a moderate speed along a cat-track and he bounced out of the trees and into my path, turning against the flow on the piste. I had to full on 'crash stop' to avoid him - is that my fault or his - I certainly felt it was his fault, but he didn't take that helpful word of wisdom I sent in his direction.
One of the things that is really getting my goat is people speeding in the obvious 'slow-down zones' just short of the lift lines (Peisey, Vallandry, 1600 etc). I've lost count of the numbers of people I've seen bombing into these stop zones and some of then trying to pull tricks in front of the lift line. I've even seen someone jump off a 'ringed-off' artifical snow pile and then stop no more than 6 inches away from a shocked kid in a lift line. Whilst I appreciate its not the french way of doing things, it wouldn't be that hard to improve the mountain experience for eveyone by having a couple of lifties at the bottom of the hill and then revoking lift passes for the day - that would certainly stop some of the idiots out there..
Luckily being here for the season, I can find the more deserted slopes, and I'm more than happy to sack it off once it gets crazy busy - I won't be out on crazy friday afternoon, thats for sure, whatever the snow conditions..
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| eng_ch wrote: |
paul10rc, welcome to
Why do people "bomb" down the side of the piste anyway? If the FIS rules say you should stop at the side of the piste rather than in the middle, isn't it logical to work out that the side is where there are likely to be people standing around? |
Why not? It's far easier to avoid stationary skiers than erroneously moving skiers.
The only modification would be to EXPECT any skier approaching the side to stop, which is "usually" obvious because they would typically be coming in rather SLOWLY. The bigger danger is someone starting out suddenly. So, not getting too close to any stopped skier is still a good pratice.
Still, I maintain is far easier to leave enough room to a stationary skier than trying to anticipate the trajectory of another skier already moving at speed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| abc wrote: |
| Still, I maintain is far easier to leave enough room to a stationary skier than trying to anticipate the trajectory of another skier already moving at speed. |
I can't disagree with that, but at the side of the piste, not only do you have the people standing still, but also those coming in to stop at the side ergo lots of people potentially coming across your trajectory. It's perfectly easy to ski down there, but the nature of the obstacles, I'd have thought, would - or ought to - preclude significant speed
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| Still, I maintain is far easier to leave enough room to a stationary skier than trying to anticipate the trajectory of another skier already moving at speed. |
I can't disagree with that, but at the side of the piste, not only do you have the people standing still, but also those coming in to stop at the side ergo lots of people potentially coming across your trajectory. It's perfectly easy to ski down there, but the nature of the obstacles, I'd have thought, would - or ought to - preclude significant speed |
Granted the REAL reason for hugging the edge of the piste is precisely because it's LESS CROWDED there! Most average skiers are intimidated by the edge of the piste and what lies beyond (cliff, trees, piste markers). So they turn around BEFORE they reach the edge of the piste, leaving better surface condition at the edge.
Lots of groups, although they're stopping NEAR the edge, are actually not AT the edge. That leaves a small corridor of skiable path to sneak through right by the edge. I wouldn't go very fast in that narrow path but what's "fast" is very personal and somewhat subjective.
Whenever we're dealing with crowded psite, we're subconciously using statistic to decide where is MORE LIKELY to be a safe passage, based on our past experience and our own ability to navigate safely. Sometimes, exceptions happened. Stopped skiers start moving, towards the edge instead of towards the center of the piste, etc. Emergency stops might need to be executed for situations like that. Truth be told, if we assume EVERY skier does EVERY stupid moves POSSIBLE, we wouldn't make much progress down a home run AT ALL!
The best solution of such problem, of course, is not to ski in busy resort during busy time. Or just walk up the mountain away from the piste at all. But if one must ski in busy piste, however occasionally, one eventually learn what's the best stretegy to suite oneself. Skiing close to the edge of the piste is definitely one of such useful strategy.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Jeez.. when I am on a slowish beginners piste with people about I just scrub off speed and wait for the next clear gap. Or practice some drills, or ski backwards... whatever. Simple.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| abc wrote: |
| eng_ch wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| Still, I maintain is far easier to leave enough room to a stationary skier than trying to anticipate the trajectory of another skier already moving at speed. |
I can't disagree with that, but at the side of the piste, not only do you have the people standing still, but also those coming in to stop at the side ergo lots of people potentially coming across your trajectory. It's perfectly easy to ski down there, but the nature of the obstacles, I'd have thought, would - or ought to - preclude significant speed |
Granted the REAL reason for hugging the edge of the piste is precisely because it's LESS CROWDED there! Most average skiers are intimidated by the edge of the piste and what lies beyond (cliff, trees, piste markers). So they turn around BEFORE they reach the edge of the piste, leaving better surface condition at the edge.
Lots of groups, although they're stopping NEAR the edge, are actually not AT the edge. That leaves a small corridor of skiable path to sneak through right by the edge. I wouldn't go very fast in that narrow path but what's "fast" is very personal and somewhat subjective.
Whenever we're dealing with crowded psite, we're subconciously using statistic to decide where is MORE LIKELY to be a safe passage, based on our past experience and our own ability to navigate safely. Sometimes, exceptions happened. Stopped skiers start moving, towards the edge instead of towards the center of the piste, etc. Emergency stops might need to be executed for situations like that. Truth be told, if we assume EVERY skier does EVERY stupid moves POSSIBLE, we wouldn't make much progress down a home run AT ALL!
The best solution of such problem, of course, is not to ski in busy resort during busy time. Or just walk up the mountain away from the piste at all. But if one must ski in busy piste, however occasionally, one eventually learn what's the best stretegy to suite oneself. Skiing close to the edge of the piste is definitely one of such useful strategy. |
My bold. I agree with all you say and often seek out the nicer snow at the side - I was taking issue with the notion of "bombing" down the side. Simplistically speaking, the greater your speed, the greater the spill area if you can it and the greater your breaking distance. When either of those are constrained, it seems sensible to constrain your speed accordingly.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Scarpa,
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just scrub off speed
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I'm sure that's the important bit, whatever one's level of competence. You have to ski at a speed at which you know you can STOP without hitting someone or something. It stands to reason that the speed which any skier can afford, so as to be able to do so in any given situation, will vary with his/her level of competence. I call it 'skiing within my headlights.'
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Hurtle, 'skiing within my headlights.' I love that description. It's the same on a motorbike, I came round a bend this year at a rather high speed only to find a tractor and silage trailor just after it. BUT... I had picked up the warning signs of loose grass at the side of the road and mud from the wheels... so I had anticipated having to brake suddenly. No harm done. People need to learn how to ski defensively.
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| moffatross wrote: |
I've already posted 7 contributions to this thread expressing how I feel about 'just an accident' but I really think that teaching the analogy about learning to drive is worth extending to all new snowsporters to keep us and them safer. Someone said that instructors don't discourage learners falling and indeed they suggest that if a learner skier or boarder isn't falling, that they aren't trying hard enough. Imagine if your driving instructor had said the same thing to you when you learned to drive ... "Don't worry about my car or theirs mate, accidents are all part of the driving experience, if you're not crashing, you're not learning." ... We'd all think that was b0llocks wouldn't we.
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Yes, we would, but it isn't the same. And it wasn't "not trying hard enough", but rather "not progressing". i.e. you are not pushing the boundaries of your abilities.
In a car, the only place you should be pushing the boundaries of your abilities is on a race track, but then in a car minor mistakes don't usually result in crashes (otherwise no learner would ever survive to take their test).
The important thing is to make sure that you ski in such a way that if (when) you do fall, you should not hit anyone/anything else as a result.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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alex_heney, Very true... most accidents do not actually happen as a result of someone else crashing. It's more the 'flowing with speed' and getting carried away with that feeling that leads people to ignoring the resulting risks.
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Hurtle, Scarpa, I drive progressively but on cross country roads always imagine that there's a broken down car just round the next blind bend.
I reckon the onus is on the uphill skier. I regard those who appear unsighted from behind hillocks/rocks/trees etc as joining a piste so it's their responsibility to look uphill first. The exception to this is if from their POV they're merely skiing a continuation of their own piste. Then it's poor piste design and there's a mutual responsibility to look out/slow down, just as there is when 2 skiers come to the realisation that they're skiing at the same level so making it difficult to clearly claim the position of downhill skier.
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