 Poster: A snowHead
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Arno, I dont have a clue what this guy is on about either..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, seems as though skimottaret is more in the know than I. It certainly makes sense that the BASI levels would (essentially) stay as they are, unlike the CSIA ones which had to have the extra couple of check-boxes added on to satisfy requirements.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DB said
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Most of the instruction I see is coaches teaching Austria's up and coming stars on the glaciers. Based on my experience, for a learner skier I'd say that a native English speaking instructor would in general give the best results because the communication is better. As the people who are instructors outside of the UK tend to be born near mountains (e.g. France, Austria, Switzerland, USA) I'd say that in general they are the better skiers esp. when it comes to offpiste skiing. There are however a few exceptions to this rule but these tend to be UK skiers who spend seasons in the alps from a young age. For these reasons when comparing top level instruction and skiing then BASI is not at the top IMHO.
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Agreed a native english speaking teacher in general would give best results owing to better and easier communication (assuming that the teachers teaching skills were up to scratch - explanation, demonstration, skiing skill, technical analysis, terrain choice, teaching methods and styles etc). However at the top level of BASI (ISTD) candidates have to pass a very difficult technical exam and more importantly pass the speedtest. Many europeans who were born in the alps and skied and raced from a very early age find it difficult to pass the speedtest and many other nations with their own mountain ranges (I know we have Scotland!) don't even have an equivalent test to pass their top level instructors exam. (US for one).
So I wouldn't agree that (modern) ISTD's are inferior as skiers either on or off piste. To be a good racer you generally need to be a good all round skier all over the mountain. Also most ISTD's do spend every season in the mountains and many (not all) have spent many of their younger years doing seasons in the mountains. Therefore I would say that ISTD's are equivalent top level teachers AND skiers to other nations. After all the UK is the only accepted lowland member of the euro alpine cartel. They wouldn't let us in if they didn't agree our top qualification was the same as theirs.
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| Yoda wrote: |
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slagging off of BASI are you referring to?
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that's one of the few legitimate uses of "off of" that I can recall seeing 
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Well spotted Maitre, it is maybe the only example. It is one of my pet peeves too and Brits are really bad users too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skir67 wrote: |
DB said
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Most of the instruction I see is coaches teaching Austria's up and coming stars on the glaciers. Based on my experience, for a learner skier I'd say that a native English speaking instructor would in general give the best results because the communication is better. As the people who are instructors outside of the UK tend to be born near mountains (e.g. France, Austria, Switzerland, USA) I'd say that in general they are the better skiers esp. when it comes to offpiste skiing. There are however a few exceptions to this rule but these tend to be UK skiers who spend seasons in the alps from a young age. For these reasons when comparing top level instruction and skiing then BASI is not at the top IMHO.
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Agreed a native english speaking teacher in general would give best results owing to better and easier communication (assuming that the teachers teaching skills were up to scratch - explanation, demonstration, skiing skill, technical analysis, terrain choice, teaching methods and styles etc). However at the top level of BASI (ISTD) candidates have to pass a very difficult technical exam and more importantly pass the speedtest. Many europeans who were born in the alps and skied and raced from a very early age find it difficult to pass the speedtest and many other nations with their own mountain ranges (I know we have Scotland!) don't even have an equivalent test to pass their top level instructors exam. (US for one).
So I wouldn't agree that (modern) ISTD's are inferior as skiers either on or off piste. To be a good racer you generally need to be a good all round skier all over the mountain. Also most ISTD's do spend every season in the mountains and many (not all) have spent many of their younger years doing seasons in the mountains. Therefore I would say that ISTD's are equivalent top level teachers AND skiers to other nations. After all the UK is the only accepted lowland member of the euro alpine cartel. They wouldn't let us in if they didn't agree our top qualification was the same as theirs. |
Do you or anybody else have any figures to back this up? (i.e. speed test pass rates, race results etc?)
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| DB wrote: |
| Do you or anybody else have any figures to back this up? (i.e. speed test pass rates, race results etc?) |
Why does it matter what the pass rate it is for candidates for any particular country. If you make the grade, you make the grade, regardless of what your compatriots do.
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| skir67 wrote: |
| Therefore I would say that ISTD's are equivalent top level teachers AND skiers to other nations. After all the UK is the only accepted lowland member of the euro alpine cartel. They wouldn't let us in if they didn't agree our top qualification was the same as theirs. |
Agreed, and a good point.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Do you or anybody else have any figures to back this up? (i.e. speed test pass rates, race results etc?) |
Why does it matter what the pass rate it is for candidates for any particular country. If you make the grade, you make the grade, regardless of what your compatriots do. |
It matters if one country has skiers that scrape through and a lot of failures (which actually supports the title of this thread) whereas other countries produce much better speed test and FIS race results. How many Brits are you expecting on the podium at Sölden this weekend?
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| DB wrote: |
| It matters if one country has skiers that scrape through and a lot of failures whereas other countries produce much better speed test |
Why? If you have passed a demanding speed test, plus all the other things that you need for ISTD, you are a high quality skier and a good quality instructor. In what way do you give your clients a worse experience than an Austrian instructor simply because the pass rate for your fellow Brit candidates is 20% rather than, say, 50%. I afraid I can't follow your logic. Surely if you pass you have made the grade.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Why? If you have passed a demanding speed test, plus all the other things that you need for ISTD, you are a high quality skier and a good quality instructor. |
Strawman argument I'm not denying that. I said in general the non-UK instructors are the better skiers.
| rob@rar wrote: |
| In what way do you give your clients a worse experience than an Austrian instructor simply because the pass rate for your fellow Brit candidates is 20% rather than, say, 50%. I afraid I can't follow your logic. Surely if you pass you have made the grade. |
Again I am talking about who in general is the better skier not the better instructor for your average British recreational skier hence the reason I asked for info on the speed tests. The top three favourites for this weeks mens race are an American, a Norwegian and an Austrian.
Countries vary the amount of attention / funding they put into a sport, their level of expertise differs too. The reverse can be said about football when comparing England to many of the ski nations. Yes BASI have done wonders in getting recognition, their tests are hard because of this and I'd imagine people who didn't grow up with skiing or spend many seasons skiing are going to find it a lot harder than your average ski resort local. Perhaps this is why people bitch against BASI.
Let's be realistic about who in general produces the better skiers though, you'll be trying to tell me English recreational skiers ski better than other nations next.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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DB, I'm not arguing against the notion that if people ski a lot because they live in the mountains they will, on average, become better than the skiers of a lowland country. That is self-evident. I'm simply saying that someone who has passed an ISTD qualification has reached a level which is deemed by the Eurogroup countries, including the UK which has worked hard to join that club, to be appropriate to teach clients. Whether there is a 10% pass rate or a 90% pass rate from any one country is irrelevant to the client because they will be taught be an instructor who has made the grade. Who finishes on WC podiums is not a significant factor for recreational skiers.
I'm not arguing that the BASI system is any better or any worse than systems from the other Alpine countries, and from what I can see only one person here has suggested that BASI is better (but won't give explain how he has reached that conclusion).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
veeeight, I am curious as to the whys in that case to understand what weakness a basi L1 would have in the CSIA curriculum... can you explain? |
| Spyderman wrote: |
I'd say not providing the 'Guest Experience' CSIA are very much into Student centred learning, focused teaching is something that BASI L1 lacks.
I too would be interested to hearing from veeeight why. |
This particular candidate failed both the CSIA L1 technical and teaching.
On the skiing side, he couldn't get centered, demonstrated zero seperation (and rotated like a barstool) on all his demos, and had lateral balance issues.
On the teach side, entirely un-communicative, did not engage with the students at all, and extremely low skill in assessment and development.
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| veeeight wrote: |
On the skiing side, he couldn't get centered, demonstrated zero seperation (and rotated like a barstool) on all his demos, and had lateral balance issues.
On the teach side, entirely un-communicative, did not engage with the students at all, and extremely low skill in assessment and development. |
Otherwise OK? 
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You know it makes sense.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| (and rotated like a barstool) |
That provides a great mental image 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Must have been difficult for him having only one leg  Brits clearly much more sensitive to these discrimination issues.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think this is a strong contender for the most mystifying thread I've ever read.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hurtle, I've assumed one leg as he was able to spin on it. Three or four wooden legs could have been even more tricky 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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veeeight, so he was just cr*p then  Musta gave the BASI trainer a bung, it happens i guess. one good skier and great teacher in my grade 3 failed cause his seperation was poor, yet his central theme was top of the class. But, one bird who skied like a truck driver mananged a pass....
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skimottaret,
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But, one bird who skied like a truck driver mananged a pass...
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oohh, controversial!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Why at the Euro test in St Anton last season did the Austrians go out of their way to manipulate the test in favour of the Austrians? If they where such a lead above the Auslanders then they shouldn't need to do that? Are the Austrians worried about the Brits and their improved level of performance? It would seem that way.
Some of you will know the Eurotest story, its currently being investigated by the Eurogroup.
I know from inside the Austrian camp that the head man was not prepared to allow the Austrian candidates any disadvantage. For many of them it was their last course before full diploma status.
I have skied with many Staatlicher schilehrer (Austrian diploma). They are great skiers, but no significant difference between them and a current ISTD.
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elbrus,
If proved correct that's a bit naughty, but if it's curently being investigated it hasn't been proved. Don't get me wrong I'm all for more native English speaking instructors and do use the services of a top level BASI qualified ski instructor / guide. Many ski schools have an instructors race sometime in the season don't they? How do the Brits fair in these sort of races? Many people have come up with opinions but I haven't seen any race results etc that can support this. As much as I am for native English instructors teaching abroad and know sometimes that they get a hard time from the various countries they teach in, I can't honestly say that BASI has the prestige of the European ski schools yet. I doubt it ever will because of the numbers, the fact is that many more Europeans, Americans and Canadians than Brits grow up on the snow.
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DB, It probably wont ever be resolved but a mate of mine was on that Eurotest and he said that all the non german/austrians were given the last bib numbers for BOTH the first and second runs. It is meant to be randomly assigned and you stand little chance on a cut up course going last....
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| DB, It probably wont ever be resolved but a mate of mine was on that Eurotest and he said that all the non german/austrians were given the last bib numbers for BOTH the first and second runs. It is meant to be randomly assigned and you stand little chance on a cut up course going last.... |
I understood this to be standard, if unwritten, practise, depending upon an individuals circumstances and influence. I know an ex-ESF chap who would be pitched against ex- or current Olympians, whereas the next day, the Ski School directors son would be pitched against a 3 legged donkey (this has noting to do with my mate being a stereotypical gauloise smoking, heavy drinking lothario, of course). Naturally any foresight as to who may be setting the standard for the test is on a need to know basis....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret,
It doesn't surprize me at all and if it's true it's well out of order. I've heard of the St Anton ski school being 'protective' in the past and I don't use their guiding services. Enough Austrians work in the UK it should work fairly when the reverse is true. From what I've heard, in the fair speed tests the percentage failure is still higher for Brits (which is understandable if they didn't grow up on the snow). Can anyone confirm / disprove this?
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Guvnor, the case i refer to is a fact not an urban myth and as elbrus, said is being investigated by BASI.
back in the old days of the Capa lots of tricks went on with mainly the foreigners but in theory that was meant to have gone away when the Eurotest was iniitiated. Also the Euro group has pushed ISIA hard to include a speed test for the top Card it will be issuing and ISIA is modelling it after the Eurotest and the cartel dont want their own test to come under any scrutiny.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 24-10-08 11:26; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Do BASI run their own Eurotests? If there is a suspicion of shenanigans, then I think they should.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| DB wrote: |
| ... I can't honestly say that BASI has the prestige of the European ski schools yet. |
That's not the case here on snowHeads, where Brit ski schools staffed mainly by BASI graduates have an extremely good reputation
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Do BASI run their own Eurotests? If there is a suspicion of shenanigans, then I think they should. |
There was a Eurotest run in Aviemore last year IIRC, although that seemed to be the first time they'd run a Eurotest there for some time.
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You know it makes sense.
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laundryman, they did one last year in Scotland but it was a bit of hassle to organise. Weather wasnt with them, they didnt have FIS rated safety netting and had to borrow some from the French, they had to improt race judges etc....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, This is an actual example too - or at least so my mate would swear to it (OK, maybe not the bit about an actual three legged donkey, but the required times were certainly noticably different). My point is that any bias is not necessarily restricted to foreigners, the powers that be will happily discriminate against any 'undesirables'. (Eric may, or indeed may not, have been caught offering some extra-curricular lessons to the fairer sex on several occasions, often to colleagues wives)
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, skimottaret, thanks.
Perhaps they could hold them under their own auspices abroad.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
From what I've heard, in the fair speed tests the percentage failure is still higher for Brits (which is understandable if they didn't grow up on the snow). Can anyone confirm / disprove this?
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I dont know the exact figures but you may be right. However, BASI allows its ISTD candidates to take as many tests as they like in a season whereas the French only get (i think) 1 or 2 goes per season. Also, a French Stagierre is on a time limit for the number of seasons they have to get the Eurotest under their belt so in effect they only have a limited number of attempts and only undertake it once they are ready. If a french guy doesnt pass he is thrown out of the french system and can only work abroad. The Brits have a go as soon as they get their ISIA and carry on until they pass....
So you are probably right in your assertion that Brit pass rates are lower but there are underlying reasons for this. I dont think it fair that the brits can rock up at any eurotest race when the French cant...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Guvnor, dont doubt that it didnt happen i guess it was just that in the "old" days before the Eurotest that sort of thing is much more prevelent.
I have heard that the current Test Technique races in France are still having these sorts of things going on against Johnny Foreigner and for the locals....
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I have stayed away from this mostly...but it seems to me all about protecting jobs... nationalities will gravitate towards their own...if only because of the language, IMV and it appears to be about market share.
You can argue about this training and that system, but when times are hard you don't want foreigners competeing on your patch.... so....???
To me, you find a teacher that works and you hire them.... that might not always be the thinking of local schools though...
I'm done.. tastes too much like fish....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Having worked with Austrian ski School, I was made very welcome and BASI appeared to be well respected. Even the young Anwaerters and often Landeslehrers who all skied like race demons, showed respect, informing me (not acquiescing mid discussion) that it wasn't all about who is first to the bottom of the mountain.
Solid technique in both teaching and technical techniques matter.
It doesn't matter which system someone follows to gain their qualifications so long as they continue to learn. BASI, CSAI/CSCF, PSIA, French and Austrian all have set pathways to ultimately produce certain standards.
Chefs in different restaurants around the world might produce dishes of the same name, but do they all arrive at the end result using exactly the same ingredients, methods, and cooking times?
I believe the above applys to snowsports. Each organisation has a positive goal even if the methodology and overall ingredients vary. So what?
I know many Anwaerters who have remained as such for many years due to the financial aspects of going further and the fact that many of them are part time instructors - like many BASI instructors.
Many of the Austrian's I know are not full time instructors/teachers/coaches - They have other jobs and responsibilities to attend to before the ski working day begins and more often then not, after the ski working day ends. The same jobs and responsibilities they attend to full time throughout the year.
They don't tear down the systems of Germany, Britain, or France or any other country for that matter. More often than not, as professionals should, they are curious to learn more. Only a few of the more arrogant instructors (of all nationalities) do otherwise.
A professional with an open mind has the potential to learn something from anyone of any standard or nationality.
Could that be how BASI has moved forward, learning from other organisations, merging and developing ideas and methods improving and maintaining professional standards, thus gaining acceptance and membership of Eurogroup and ISIA?
A so called professional with a closed and arrogant mind will not, thereby missing out on some wonderful opportunities to develop themselves further. No one can afford to rest on their laurels.
I see BASI and CSIA as forward thinking organisations that are constantly developing training methodolgies and techniques. I don't believe any of the other national systems are any different (To a greater or lesser degree.) The french system has a definate pathway as does the Austrian and I daresay other countries that are full members of ISIA.
Innovations in skiing technique, teaching or technical don't just happen. They are encouraged, coaxed and strengthened by forward thinking professionals and in many cases, amateurs (IVSI).
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| JT wrote: |
| To me, you find a teacher that works and you hire them.... that might not always be the thinking of local schools though... |
Exactly right. If you don't have one or two teachers that you know you're happy to be taught by, pick a ski school where you are likely to end up with a good instructor. IME these tend to be the smaller ski schools rather than the big local ski school.
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Snowshark, good post.
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Skiers who grow up in the mountains are going to be better than flatlanders. Duh! What we're actually saying is people who've skied a lot ski better than people who, well, haven't. Now there's a surprise. It isn't every mountain boy who skis and it isn't every flatlander who didn't spend seasons in the Alps from an early age. What actually matters is that skiers who reach the standard required reach the standard required. Some skiers who grow up in the mountains will fail to make the grade. They are clearly worse than flatlanders who make the grade. Patently lots of Austrians don't make the grade or the Anwarter grade wouldn't be set at such an undemanding level.
However all French ski instructors can ski. Their system ensures this. Many do indeed come from racing backgrounds and spent their teens hucking cliffs. I wouldn't bet on the BASI team in a ski-off with the ESF. That said, from my experience of being instructed and that of my friends and acquaintances BASI instructors are the better teachers. I'm convinced it's not just the language. Their attitude to teaching and perhaps their teaching skills are better. I believe a speed test to be an essential part of advanced instructor training but not one as demanding as the current Eurotest. The Eurotest is there to keep ski instructor jobs for the boys who grew up in the mountains. Unfortunately now that flatlanders have risen to the challenge, it seems to be a case of if you can't win, cheat.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges, Snowshark, both good posts
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Snowshark, good post.
As I see it, there are a great many competent entry level instructors (L1/L2), even if the standard might be a little variable (even within one association). What they are capable of teaching will not e very diverse though - understandable as they do only have a limited audience.
However, when talking of the higher levels of instruction, you get very few instructors who have their ISIA stamp (or meet the new performance level criteria) who are not very good instructors. To get to that level they have to be very good skiers and have demonstrated very good teaching technique.
Again though, they are not 'complete instructors'. Once an instructor reaches ISTD I think you could (to all intents and purposes) call him/her a complete instructor. They've had to show competence in all areas of the mountain they may be required to teach in, they've shown excellent technique and abilities and excellent teaching skills.
The key to everything is experience though - unless you actually teach seasons, you won't get the feel for it and it won't come as automatically. By the time it comes round to the start of the season, I've usually forgotten half of what I've done on courses, and have to watch the DVDs and read the manuals to remind myself; from my experience of other activities, if I were to be using these techniques and thought processes throughout a season it would become ingrained - no thinking, just recognising and reacting, a much better state to be in when observing, analysing and teaching a dynamic sport like skiing.
slikedges, I agree (to an extent) that members of BASI and CSIA appear to adopt better teaching practices than the French ski instructors I have come across (though maybe they were just thinking, 'Not another British punter...' and turned off slightly; I hope not though). Having said that, I have received excellent instruction from French instructors, though would probably say that the average has been higher when dealing with Canadians - can't comment on BASI as I've never, to my knowledge, been instructed by one.
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FAQ
