 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle, perhaps it is a bit of bar chat but if you want to chat in a bar about skiing the "black zone" bar i am picturing in mind is the one whose clientel includes skiers that come in after a long day with avi gear on along with instructors still in their uniforms after work. Not a Dick's Tea Bar "green run" type of bar where the "head hooray" is telling his mates how to ski off piste after his tough day "doing the blacks"
The Head hooray might get some reverential glances in Dicks but any BS would be a little less prevelent, quickly stomped on or ignored in the first bar....
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skimottaret, very nice analogy! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret what you been eating/drinking today to feed your creative analogy mind. Some corkers today 
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BzK in the past used to be a zone of high quality question and answer, explainations etc. with very little railroading and off-topic'ing.
In recent times however there have been some that have been determined to make it an extension of Apres, Dawn Chorus, etc. and certainly easiski and myself (and no doubt some other pros) feel that this has rather spoilt it for those who wish to have such a quiet place where they can discuss things with an instructor, rather than be subject to the in-jokes of the sH mafia.
As for feeling patronised....... I'll take that as a compliment of my ESF-esque brusque-ness and repeat that the Internet fora is not for the thin skinned..... Wow. You guys should try posting on Epic or TGR, then you'll know what patronised is.
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minx, Cold medicine i am dying with a head cold after having spent the last couple days running up the MK hill due to a broken lift while teaching total beginners in the fridge. it has done my head in after having just come back full of vim, vigour and knowledge after spending two weeks in Courchevel on a course to learn how to lead off piste groups... The glamorous life of a part time ski teacher eh?
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| veeeight wrote: |
BzK in the past used to be a zone of high quality question and answer, explainations etc. with very little railroading and off-topic'ing.
In recent times however there have been some that have been determined to make it an extension of Apres, Dawn Chorus, etc. and certainly easiski and myself (and no doubt some other pros) feel that this has rather spoilt it for those who wish to have such a quiet place where they can discuss things with an instructor, rather than be subject to the in-jokes of the sH mafia.
As for feeling patronised....... I'll take that as a compliment of my ESF-esque brusque-ness and repeat that the Internet fora is not for the thin skinned..... Wow. You guys should try posting on Epic or TGR, then you'll know what patronised is. |
Jong
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DB,
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Why is it not ok for the 'amateurs' to disagree with the 'pros', and why can't pros disagree with pros?
veeeight, I'm not pointing this point at you specifically, but as an example you may identify to many of the coaches at Whistler teach very different techniques for example; Kindree teaches a bit more rotation in advanced skiing than others, whereas Bucky reckons I rotate like a barstool anyway; Pro teaches a very relaxed style that works amazingly well (on the occasion he does turn), 'Professor' Anderson teaches a much more technical approach etc, etc... Some of the level 4 pros in the ski school teach somewhat differently to the stuff the level 4 (or equivalent in talent terms) coaches in DM or EC.
Luckily for me I've skied with a lot of them so can compare and take all the good bits that work for me, but that's not to say I wont go to Kindree (one of the top instructors there) and say "hey John this following the skis business really isn't working for me"
Personally I reckon I'd be a fairly useless instructor and realise the commitment and skill it takes to get to the top so I'm not arguing with that. I guess the point I'm making is that why would say having a CSIA 1/trainee instructor/etc necessarily make you a font of knowledge compared to anyone else, and why should everyone agree?
If an 'amateur' in my field was disagreeing with me, I don't think I'd resort to the "you don't know what you're talking about because you haven't got a degree, n years experience, etc, etc" but rather explain why I think I'm right and they are wrong - you can always learn things from anyone.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 29-01-08 16:36; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stoatsbrother,
yep, the TGR forum is definitely just a spectator sport!
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stoatsbrother,
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Megamum got your answer yet?
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I think that was clear by the turn of the first page 
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You know it makes sense.
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stoatsbrother,
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I am still looking for an example of a thread where the amateurs and know-nothings like me drove them away.
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I've got to put my hand up, here. On one occasion I completely lost my temper, threw everything out of the pram and posted something like 'SZK is right, BZK should be nuked.' easiski picked up on that and, not surprisingly, was less than amused. I did apologize, though. 
How do you guys find the time to look at/post on multiple forums? (See, I'm not that pedantic, 'fora' looks silly.)
I would wonder, were the concept not so laughable, whether I had been branded as a member of the snowHead mafia?  'course, I almost never post on DC, so maybe that absolves me...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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If MM can control a bunch of goats SH's should be easy.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, hmmm, I can imagine you causing upset generally, but I don't think that agreeing to nuking BZK is the same as slagging off an instructor for the advice they give. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ray Zorro,
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slagging off an instructor for the advice they give.
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No, I didn't do that (not being qualified to do so) but I was fairly vociferous about the manner in which I felt some of that advice was being given.
Whatever makes you think I cause upset generally? I'm a peacemaker/dealmaker, that's why I never wanted to be a litigator when I was in practice.
...do I hear expressions of doubt?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle,
I wouldn't dare...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Well - I'm taking my thin skin off for 4 days to get my van MOT'd. Not everyone in the world can have a thick one, and at 55 I don't think it's likely to grow now!  Not all of us go onto other forums - snowheads was my 'club' but now I don't think I belong any more. I have sent a PM to Ray Zorro BTW.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Having missed all this I thought I'd get my 2p in.
I agree with the original thread title. It isn't. Now I suspect I'm also one of the naysayers who has contributed to "bad vibes" by not being a great lesson taker and not "getting" technical insight via the written word alone usually I think due to the complexity or perspective of the terminology adopted. The glossary was a great start toward rectifying this however.
I did use to flip through most threads and can recall some gems including actually understanding what ILE was and the whole role of unweighting in "modern" skiing. I certainly think more about my poles and hands this year compared to last - doesn't mean you won't catch me dragging. The LeMaster sequences are of course excellent when someone posts one of them.
I assumed that the relative quiet was down to it being the ski season though not a fundamental disintegration. I think the pros are of course immensely valuable but its their ball and if they don't want to play with it that's fair enough too.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, You sound like my mumsy
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wen i woz 9
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, that's rather a lot of expectations from and limited reward to those same pro's:
an expectation that they will answer with correct information,
an expectation that they will rephrase the information to best suit every audience's context and comprehension and enthusiasm,
an expectation that they will phrase the information so that it is least likely to be misconstrued, taken out of context elsewhere, asserted with secondhand authority, oversimplified so it can no longer be correct, overgeneralised, taken as gospel, or disputed by someone whose debating fervor exceeds their knowledge or comprehension,
an expectation that they will repeat the information in a reasonably interesting and novel way every time someone else asks the same questions,
an expectation that they will correct disinformation,
others I haven't thought of.
Now notice that an attempt to talk to someone at their own level carries both the burden of explaining everything to the general audience, and the burden of defending one's statements against misconstruction, oversimplification, out of context quoting, dispute without sufficient knowledge or comprehensive basis.
Effectively this means that in order to talk to pros the pros will go elsewhere. What this creates is a knowledge vacuum at the top, unless one finds a gem of a top-level professional willing to effectively donate their time and patience into pro bono teaching and information sharing, starting at the primer level. The fact that they are top-level pro's means that, for the most part,  generally does not constitute their clientele. The notion of a national-level coach, say, finding customers here to warrant the work they would let themselves in for by posting, is a most amusing notion indeed.
Keeping the pro's here to monitor BzK is therefore extremely self-centered, as their chances of full-on peer interaction and ongoing learning are reduced to zero, zip, nada.
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Now I know that medics require much less training, need to make much less intellectual effort, and require much less insight into the minds of the people they are dealing with, than ski instructors/coaches, but I observe the following characteristics of snowHead medics (and dentists and snowHeads in other, allied professions): they are unfailingly generous with their advice, they give the advice with good humour, they give it entirely unselfishly, they acknowledge that their word is not necessarily gospel, they are kind and gentle when required, they do not patronise their questioners, and they don't throw toys out of their prams. We are lucky to have them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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comprex, I think nothing I ever say is going to meet with your approval. Perhaps its a good job I can manage without it.
I tended to get the impression that the pro's were here because they genuinely wanted to help people learn and that their motives were purely altruistic. The fact that some people sort them out for actual lessons was a just a nice pat on the back as a result - I get the impression that they are so good at their jobs they probably don't have problems getting booked even without their input here. I can however, quite understand the pro's reactions if their genuine efforts to help people in their own styles (which will all be different or we would live in a dull world) meet with unjustifiable criticism. IMV they don't deserve treatment like that.
I am sure that if the pros want 'full-on peer interaction and ongoing learning' there are no doubt forums within the industry more suited to that need. Why is it so difficult to believe that there are people in the world who will give you something for nothing just because they are passionate about a subject? I see it happen all over the internet - you should see some of the IT forums that offer folks solutions with programming etc. anyone that believes that people won't give something for nothing and be genuinely happy doing so must have been shafted themselves once too often and if you fall into that category then I'm sorry for you.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hurtle, that comment seemed to be a bit mean-spirited to those ski pros who have given a lot of advice on the forum, and in person at various events. I'm disappointed to see such words from you.
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Megamum, well said.
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, I should have said that my post was in response to the mean-spirited one that preceded it. Of course I acknowledge huge input by some - I have consistently acknowledged and expressed my thanks for such input whenever I have encountered it. (Don't know about events, have never attended one. But don't the pros get paid for their tuition at events?)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hurtle, As you know I've never done one, but I believe, from what I've gleened round here that the pro's do charge, but at preferential rates - someone else would need to confirm or otherwise.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, you think so? Interesting.
I have no objection to giving for the sake of sustaining and spreading a passion.
I have every objection in the world to needy, grasping, institutionalized expectation of such giving. Whether it's specialist knowledge or Christmas.
If pros cannot interact with pros and learn from pros here, then what is left here is an army run by corporals and sergeants (and brigadiers either playing at corporals or nudging the corporal's elbow)
The spirit is as it is because it has been burned. Here.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 29-01-08 23:45; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hurtle, to my reading that was a cheap sideswipe at all pros who bother to post here. I regret to say that your contributions to BzK is one of the reasons why I wouldn't consider being a regular contributor. Too much heat, and not enough light. A great pity on a ski forum.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have every objection in the world to needy, grasping, institutionalized expectation of such giving. Whether it's specialist knowledge or Christmas.
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You clearly don't work for the blood transfusion service then.
I am not religious, but I do think that for all the good that someone gives, they should get equal measure in return - though not necessarily at the same time.
W.r.t. the quote above, you have clearly got a very jaundiced view of the world and the people that live in it. As though people develop a "needy, grasping, institutionalised expectation of 'giving'", good heavens man, get a grip, and stop putting your somewhat OTT view of people into the mouths of others. Talk about mountains out of molehills - I certainly wouldn't want to give you a shovel!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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comprex,
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I have every objection in the world to needy, grasping, institutionalized expectation of such giving
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That's an absolutely fair point. But are you implying that Megamum is grasping, or even that most amateurs on BZK are grasping? Surely not.
rob@rar,
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a cheap sideswipe at all pros who bother to post here
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That was not intended. I say again, when I have benefited from advice, I have always thanked the giver of that advice. Nor do I expect to be given advice - if it's available that's fine, if not, tant pis. Where I have been able to offer the benefit of my experience (which I would hesitate to do in matters of ski technique, not being an expert) I have tried to do so. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but don't feel the need to apologize for failing to shed light on your life, I'm afraid.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but don't feel the need to apologize for failing to shed light on your life, I'm afraid. |
An apology was not sought, and happily I have other opportunities to participate in discussions about how skiing works and how it could be taught. But I do think it's a shame that it has become difficult to make the most of snowHeads for that purpose.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm happy to post on BzK. I've tried to help as many snowHeads as possible, because I want to. I hope those snowHeads that I have skied with have picked up a few things that have helped them.
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Megamum, Did you book the full 10 page aggro for this or is it going to be a 20 pager? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
), but it honestly wasn't my intent. However, I'm really pleased that everyone at all levels have become involved - this is my own personal view, but welcome back to the fold pro's - I hope it won't be last time we see your contributions here.