 Poster: A snowHead
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CI's should be paid. End of.
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monster77
monster77
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| elbrus wrote: |
| monster77, I hear its like playing darts with a blind fold on whilst someone runs around with the dart board! Is this your experience? |
Pretty much.
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monster77
monster77
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| skimottaret, ADC is not the same as L1 coach. |
Thanks, i was thinking of the APC as opposed to ADC (didnt know there was an ADC) |
ADC Alpine development Coach
APC Alpine Performance Coach.
The ADC was created for SSE ASSI's who wanted to go the Coaching route, but did not want to (or had no interest in ) the racing route.
A lot of the SSE ASSI's wanted to get into coaching, but did not want to coach the racing groups. It was felt that there were plenty of skiers who would also like to be coached without wanting to race, asspiarant ASSI's for example. The ADC also qualifies for an IVSI, so ADC's can take groups from local dry ski slopes to ski on snow.
APC is for race coaching. But not everyone wants to go pole bashing.
I think that just about sums it up.
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Does SSE distinguish between teaching qualifications (eg ASSI), coaching qualifications (ADC) and race coach qualifications (APC)? What is the difference between a teaching qualification and a coaching qualification?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| elbrus wrote: |
| roga, some of the SSE coaches ( the ones who deliver ASSI) where invited to attend BASI L1 orientation days. If BASI felt they ( the SSE coaches) could deliver the product, they where invited to the on snow training 16th October in Austria. A few ( mainly SSS coaches and 2 SSE coaches) got the invite. The rest didnt down to their lack of technical skiing skills. So, did the coaches you mention de-select him/herself, or was he/she not chosen? |
The former (de-selection) as far as I know although I'm surprised he/she turned down a trip to Austria 
There's a lot of rumour going round though, I mean if I'm being told that the standard on BASI Level 1 is low but only 2 SSE coaches were chosen as being of adequate standard there's bull**** somewhere along the line - I haven't got a clue who to trust and I haven't got a clue what is the truth but that seems to be the nature of this whole blooming thing - a good old fashioned British mess all in all!
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monster77
monster77
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| Spyderman wrote: |
elbrus,
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Where would you put the ADC level? I think between BASI L2 and ISIA ( the current ADC). The early ones, about ASSI.
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| as it has been recently raised substantially to a level now which IMO is between BASI L2 and ISIA. The problems arise from the existing SSE Coaches, in that the original technical standard was considerably lower, more like ASSI standard, |
That makes 2 of us that think that then.  |
Spydie, When P started doing the ADC 3 years ago, the entry level was listed in the SSE blurb as a good SSE ASSI ( I think), but it turned out that the entry level was nearer BASI 2 ( as it was then) This is what caused so much trouble after the first course was run, with various threats of litigation and people loosing jobs, because people were being miss sold the course.
I have to admit that I have not spent much time looking at the current ADC setup, as P eventually pased (after much hoop jumping), and is now slowly heading away from SSE to go the SSS / BASI route like so many others.
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| elbrus wrote: |
| Where would you put the ADC level? I think between BASI L2 and ISIA ( the current ADC). The early ones, about ASSI. |
Hard to say - I'd need to shadow both courses to give an accurate answer.
Certainly the 'level' is at higher end and I think that's demonstrated by the pass rate & the profile of the majority who passed the technical element on the 1st of the most recent assessments.
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laundryman, we have been down this discussion before and I agree with you we don’t need a regulatory body (as for medicine or law) and AFAIK there is no legal minimum requirement in the UK (unlike France) for a ski instructor "license".
I think/am assuming how this gets "policed" is that that there must be some minimum level of training for health and safety reasons that slope employees must demonstrate so that their liability insurance would cover them in case of a problem. If for instance a dry slope had employees called "ski instructors" that haven’t received any training whatsoever I would assume they would not have met their duty of care responsibilities and if someone got hurt whilst on a lesson there could be repercussions.
But as the CI award was intended for volunteering at clubs i would be interested to know if a dry slope employing CI's has met their minimum duty of care level employing people with that level of training. I guess the answer is yes as they employe them now, but perhaps it has never been tested......
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, What is it about CIs ? IMO they're fine introduction to starting to teach on the dry slope. In a properly run ski school, with the right develpment program they'll do fine.
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monster77
monster77
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Does SSE distinguish between teaching qualifications (eg ASSI), coaching qualifications (ADC) and race coach qualifications (APC)? What is the difference between a teaching qualification and a coaching qualification? |
the badge, oh and once you are a coach, people working up to ASSI can then use you as their placement coach, so bits of the logbook can be signed off.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, I can only speak for Hemel. CIs have exactly the same Insurances, CRB checks, First Aid Certs, Shadowed Hours, Training Courses ans Assessments as any other Instructor. The difference is their technical level and the level at which they are allowed to teach up to, i.e. Basic Parallel. They should be paid accordingly.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think the big question though is - are they charged out accordingly? Certainly at an indoor slope where prices for instruction are very high, I would expect to get a higher level of qualifcaition for my money - beginner or not.
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beanie1, At Hemel it's the same price for instruction, whether you're on a Beginners first lesson or advanced parallel lesson. Every Instructor is available to teach up to what their qualification allows. So it's possible that a total beginner could get a CI or a BASI ISTD, but an advanced lesson would get as a minimum an experienced ASSI. The pay rates to the Instructors are dependant on qualifications, but the charges to the client remain the same. Hemel tends to mix the lesson types, so that one Instructor isn't doing basic or top end lessons all of the time. I'm just as happy teaching a beginners first lesson as I am the Instructor development group and the pay is the same.
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You know it makes sense.
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beanie1, Not sure about all the indoor slopes but at Milton Keynes at least the minimum standard is ASSI. The private lesson prices are very steep..
Spyderman, Thanks for the info on the CI's that is re-assuring. I seem to remember that you mentioned that once Hemel goes to snow it will be ASSI/L1 minimum, am i correct in saying that?
ski, We had the are CI's technically good enough debate once before and i shouldnt be going off topic. I only mentioned CI's as there was some debate as to the level that the L1 course was being pitched at and when rjs mentioned that in France club instructors can deliver instruction in the mountains alongside the ski schools. My point is that in France they can do that as long as they are volunteering.
Personally I think that is the correct role for CI's here as well and would IMO make a nice demarcation between what SSE and BASI offer. SSE could be for volunteer instructors, racing and coaches going through to the IVSI pathway and BASI for professional instruction. (by professional i only mean for paid employment, no snub at the quality of a CI or APC coach intended)
you hit the nail on the head with
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In a properly run ski school, with the right develpment program they'll do fine.
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i couldnt agree more, but sadly that hasnt been my experience and we have many referenences to poorly run schools not offering a training pathway and exploiting the CI's
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| exploiting the CI's |
And not paying them would not exploit them? 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| I couldnt agree more, but sadly that hasnt been my experience and we have many referenences to poorly run schools not offering a training pathway and exploiting the CI's |
Time to name and shame I think. There're really is no excuse for the exploitation of Club Instructors, by not paying them 
Hemel will be minimum ASSI/L1 when it goes to snow. We have been working very hard with those who want to, to raise their standard.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| laundryman wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| exploiting the CI's |
And not paying them would not exploit them? |
It is IMO when the schools charge them out for lessons....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Personally I think that is the correct role for CI's here as well and would IMO make a nice demarcation between what SSE and BASI offer. SSE could be for volunteer instructors, racing and coaches going through to the IVSI pathway and BASI for professional instruction. (by professional i only mean for paid employment, no snub at the quality of a CI or APC coach intended) |
So are you saying that holders of these qualifications should not be paid ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Hemel will be minimum ASSI/L1 when it goes to snow.
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Chill Factor e is also. They've been inundated with job apps...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Spyderman, I am not having a go here but why are CI's okay to teach at hemel dry slope but not on snow? I think it is a great thing that you are offering training to your CI's to get them to the next level.
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skimottaret,
Price of lessons, probably!!
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david@mediacopy, gosh no I wasn't implying that current holders shouldnt be paid when they are working, i have been argueing against their exploitation. But to get some clarity in a very confused situation, the differentiation between "amateur" SSE and "professional" BASI qualifications could possibly help keep a revenue stream from training going to both organisations but targetted at different pathways. Current holders of the CI rating should be allowed time to upgrade their ratings to the L1 with CI's in the future delivering volunteer school groups, clubs, coaching etc.... just one man's opinion though 
I cant see how the ASSI will continue to go on as most people will see that the BASI route is more future proof and if it costs the same why would you choose an ASSI except when it is the only offering in your area? This leaves SSE with CI and coach training.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Spyderman, I am not having a go here but why are CI's okay to teach at hemel dry slope but not on snow? I think it is a great thing that you are offering training to your CI's to get them to the next level. |
We are still dealing with the old SSE system, in that up to 2 years ago we still had people taking their CI Awards. Most of them have gone on to take initially SSS ASSI and currently BASI L1, either by the full course or conversion from ASSI. We now have very few CI's as a result and have set a deadline of the new snow slope opening for them to raise their qualification standards. The CI's that we do have are all experienced and I see no reason for them not achieving the standard by the deadline. Hemel offers very low cost Instructor Training which works out to about £1.50 an hour, for Instructors to further their qualifications.
What's wrong with us trying to raise the standard of the Instruction that we offer our Customers?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Spyderman, i asked the question as you had argued that CI's are fine for teaching early stagers, just was curious if there was some differential between that view on snow or on plastic.
makes sense as i didnt appreciate that Hemel had stopped training CI's and was so far along in its conversion. Nothing wrong at all about raising standards..
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skimottaret, I firmly beleive that absolute Beginners should be given the best Instructors in the ski school. The clients then get a good experience, want to come back for more, tell their friends and the business grows. It also gives them a firm foundation from which other maybe not so experienced Instructors can build on, rather than having the better Instructors having to put right faults that could have been dealt with in the early stages.
I'm not making any differential between Plastic and Snow, it's just a clean deadline in which to change.
Hemel is a good way along with it's conversion. It's hoped that we'll be a BASI centre of excellence as soon as we open on Snow. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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beanie1, Question answered.
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skimottaret,
Apology accepted, having slept on it I think I may have slammed the door on you pretty hard, no offence intended
My bugbear is pretty simple, I see a really vibrant snow sports community in the UK, from a great racing scene to kids throwing down outrageous inverts on their local snowflex. All of which we manage without a spot of real snow. Does anyone think the French would have this much energy and commitment without the Alps and Pyrenees’? You can bet your bottom dollar they would pout, and then take their ball home... So it really pisses me off when we can't get our act together and organise a coherent strategy for the delivery of snow sports instruction and coaching.
The SSW, SSS, SSW division is a mess, it's the same scenario as the home football nations, routed in history and entrenched by vested interests, I fully support the idea of a single organisation and training pathways, I don’t really care who administers it, but BASI seam to have the get up a go so why not them.
Note to BASI - you need CI’s or equivalent, If the proposed BASI 1 is roughly equivalent to the ASSI then it’s pitched too high IMO. I know great CI’s who have struggled to attain the standard required by ASSI, (psychology, age, injuries etc). They absolutely deliver top quality, technically sound instruction to beginners. Do they need ASSI standard skills to do this – NO. should they be paid for this – absolutely.
skimottaret, Having all ASSI's is a nice idea but you simply don’t have the numbers of ASSI qualified instructors in the UK to deliver what you suggest. The trouble with the CI qualification is the consistency, for ever 5 or so great CI's there the odd dead head who can hardly ski and is teaching his or her own personal voodoo version of ski instruction
Bottom line – local dedicated, enthusiastic amateurs who give their time in exchange for break even pay are the lifeblood of uk snowsports – exclude them at your peril, they deliver the students that BASI’s top instructors in the French alps make a living out of. If BASI were to take over the admin of qualification then they need to make sure they design in a basic level - be it BASI 1 or other, if not they will regret it in time
PS - yes I'm presently doing my CI shadowing and it's really enthused me to teach, I never thought I'd get so much pleasure from teaching and giving back. The catch - its really only as a prep for CSIA 1 & 2 (hopefully) this season. Part of the reason I've chosen CSIA - the mess above - nuff said
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You know it makes sense.
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BG, Some very valid points. As I stated earlier, I observed a BASI L1 course last week. I trained a group of 10 Candidate Instructors for 16, 2 hour weekly sessions thoughout the Summer. They had no previous teaching experience and were reasonable skiers, but certainly no where near expert. They all put the extra time in as well to practice on their own. 4 of the 10 in my group took the L1 last week and they all passed. Just the CPM, First Aid and Shadowing and they'll be teaching.
My point is with the right training and commitment is the CI award really neccessary? What I learnt from observing the course was where the Level 1 was in terms of skill level, which is basically a level 4 (Late Practice) on the BASI 0-6 scale. Can they demonstate the Central Theme and would you be happy seeing them free ski wearing a Ski Instructors Jacket.
When people turn up for a lesson they expect their Ski Instructor to be able to ski and ski well. You are their Model.
Good luck with your shadowing and you'll certainly enjoy the CSIA courses.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Spyderman, Some interesting points raised thgis evening.
With the right training environment, CI fits in nicely, filling a small void below ASSI/L1. It's part of the pathway - development through achievable stages. Although not part of the BASI strategy at present, it fits in and works when there are dedicated coaches and trainers and a ski school that believes in such development.
Maybe, as BG, appears to be doing and using CI as part of a training pathway to CSIA, BASI may have considered it within their system - perhaps as a new training course. The candidate would then leave with a definite action plan with a view to moving onto the next stage as happens with existing BASI courses.
At least through BASI membership, the developing skier/coach/instructor will have a one stop shop for membership payments.
I'm still hoping the home nations will change their minds (again) shouldn't be too hard - they've done it before.
I just wonder what the majority of current home nations members are thinking at the moment. I have yet to renew my SSS licence - I may not even bother and stick with the BASI route - although I have always viewed Home Nations qualifications as valuable ancilliaries to progression through BASI.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Spyderman,
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My point is with the right training and commitment is the CI award really neccessary?
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are you changing your point of view? I thought you were firmly in favour of having a CI level...
It would be interesting to get a feel what percentage of dry slope instructors are CI's
BG, good luck on your CSIA, teaching is fun and addictive isnt it....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, Interesting point. Having seen the L1 course and been part of the pre-training, no I don't think it is necessary to have a CI award. SSS never saw the need to have one and still don't. I started with SSE CI myself, at the time apart from BASI it was the only option as you couldn't access ASSI without CI.
I don't think I've changed my mind, from previously being in favour of CI. Did I give that impression? I don't think the CI is necessary. I don't think that the ASSI/L1 standard is too high for an introductory level Ski Instructor to achieve.
Maybe I should get out more and see some other slopes around the country. I have paid a couple of visits to Welwyn, where they are also converting to BASI L1, the standard of skiing from their Instructors was very high.
I also would be interested to know the percentages of CI's and what slopes are pretty much CI only, so as to go and see for myself.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I would suggest that places like Hemel are the minority, being cash rich and having instructors locally that are able to afford the fees for ASSI or L1.
Many of the dry slopes I know operate with a crew of CCI's that are barely paid enough (not that I agree with that) and double up as spanner monkeys when the pomas break, labour to replace dodgy Dendix, serve behind the equipment counter etc. etc.
So in that respect, the CCI and CI scheme is a useful stepping stone for those who are scraping a living, but have a tremendous passion for teaching skiing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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veeeight, Fair comment, I haven't been to see for myself, but it strikes me that people who can afford to go skiing are not generally on the breadline. They are surely paying for lessons and the slopes should be paying their Instructors. Maybe I'm out of touch, but if a person can afford to get enough experience to become an Instructor, they have sufficient means to pay £350 to do the ASSI/L1. Sure we have some Instructors where money is very tight for them, but the slope helps in every way possible for them to progress their qualifications.
It sounds to me like some operators are just exploiting the passion of their staff.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Many of the dry slopes I know operate with a crew of CCI's that are barely paid enough (not that I agree with that) and double up as spanner monkeys when the pomas break, labour to replace dodgy Dendix, serve behind the equipment counter etc. etc. |
My presumption was that most slopes are like this.
I have not seen the BASI 1 course syllabus nor have I seen the skiing standard in action. I do know a young lad who went through it this summer at Hintertux. He passed with flying colours and as has been said, his skiing was solid but by no means expert standard.
I think I may be coming round to the idea of adopting the BASI 1 as the entry across the board.
Ultimately the standard will adapt to meet demands of the slopes / public. If there is a need for the CI to remain as a pathway / supplement to BASI 1 then the industry will find this equilibrium point after a time.
I do see the major advantage with this approach being that BASI get the chance to re-set the quality standard.
In this case there should be an offcial BASI conversion process not only for ASSI’s but also for CI’s to ensure that those that are capable / have the desire can transition to the new standard. Spyderman, I presume the training you did for your CI's at helmel was a local arrangement it would be nice to see BASI adopt this officially.
Anecdotally it’s been my experience that the SSE ASSI’s I know tend to be much closer to BASI 2 (old 3) than to CI. In fact in terms of teaching ability I would suggest that they would be perhaps superior to a newly qualified BASI 2, the situation with regard to technical skills would be reversed. That might just be my sample group but it’s an observation….but I think we may have been there before.
I don’t know much about the politics or personalities but I’m afraid I don’t share your optimism with regard to the home nations, if SSS came back on board with BASI then they might be able, in time, to create a critical mass that would eventually force SSE to follow suit. However If SSE and SSS produce a combined qualification then I’m afraid we’re set for years of competing qualifications as at present, but then what are the chances of SSS & SSE collaborating?
Thanks for the best wishes with the CSIA
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| BG wrote: |
| I don’t know much about the politics or personalities but I’m afraid I don’t share your optimism with regard to the home nations, if SSS came back on board with BASI then they might be able, in time, to create a critical mass that would eventually force SSE to follow suit. |
That was what I thought would happen, I never imagined that SSS would withdraw.
However, I've got the impression there's a real hostility to BASI in certain quarters of Snowsport England and I don't think they ever intended coming on board unless they were somehow forced to - if you like they were just looking for convenient excuses. I also guess that SSS realised this and combined with the loss of finance from their lost members and courses they did an about turn.
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| However If SSE and SSS produce a combined qualification then I’m afraid we’re set for years of competing qualifications as at present, but then what are the chances of SSS & SSE collaborating? |
I don't know the history so anyone care to elaborate?
I think we're now in for years of competing qualifications to be honest.
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BASI has released a news statement on their website entitled:
BASI Statement on UK Coaching and Instructing Education Progammes.
Good to know BASI is remaining positive, professional, and in continuation of its modernisation efforts.
viait www.basi.org.uk to view the statement for yourselves.
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Snowshark, good spot and it looks like they are trying to keep the door open and remain professional...
one interesting thing in the statement was "Current Club Instructors and Alpine Ski Leaders can upgrade to a BASI level 1 Instructor by attending an assessment day. Upon successful upgrade then you can apply for membership and the benefits of a Level 1 Instructor."
This seems to address the question of will BASI offer a CI level and answer seems to be they will look at the individuals on a per person basis during an assessment and offer an upgrade. sounds very reasonable to me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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got through a copy of the course syllabus for the new basi coaches course. I dont know what the canadian course offers but BASI seem to have used the coaching content from canada and kept in the skier development through a series of drills the candidate must perform..
copy here for anyone interested
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skimottaret, Thanks, it looks as if someone already holding APC1 can go straight onto the Level 2 course and be "converted" at the same time.
The description of the Level 1 course matches my understanding of what was in the APM, no course setting and not obvious whether any skiing through gates.
I posted the link to the CSCF course descriptions earlier in one of the other threads on this stuff.
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FAQ
