 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's sort of the equivalent of a degree programme isn't it really? But with the advantage that students can be paid as they go along.
I suppose the main advantage the French in particular (and I presume the alpine nations in general) have over Brits wanting to follow the same route /gain ISTD/Equivalence is that racing has been an integral part of their skiing from the very start whereas my perception is that most Brits learn technique but not to race and you have to go out of your way to get any race training (e.g. do a specific course rather than have it as part and parcel of learning to ski); so for the French going through the French system, the race aspect (TT/Eurotest) tends to be got out of the way earlier instead of being a big mental barrier and having to learn specifically just for ISTD?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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eng_ch, but does racing make you a better instructor, or is it ego massaging, or something else?
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Wear The Fox Hat, no it probably does little for your instructing capabilities, as in finding ways of putting the message over to someone whoe is not necessarily on your wavelenght. And it is certainly nothing to do with massaging an ego...as in any race you will be seeing someone else doing what you want to be doing far better than you are almost all the time, unless you are extremely talented. What it will do is make you a far, Far, FAR better skier than any amount of time spent pootling around the mountain - however big the grin is on your face. Why does it do that? Because it forces you to concentrate on every single movement you make when you ski. Every minor mistake you make with mistiming edge engagement by the odd few milliseconds, or failure to get your balance right, or get the wrong amount of pressure on one ski or another will be shown up in either a) completely missing the turn you were trying to make or b) by sticking 1/10ths or more on your finishing time. The stopwatch doesn't lie, but you don't often need it to tell you when you got something wrong - even if you sometimes have a hard time accepting it.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 12-06-07 14:56; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
does racing make you a better instructor
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sure it does, just like having proficiency in off piste skiing or a second discipline like snowboarding or telemarking. The more you understand about skiing and are able to do the better equipped you are to teach others.
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Wear The Fox Hat, I tend to believe that teaching is a natural desire and talent, not an acquired one so no, racing doesn't imo make you a better instructor. I can see an argument that it can focus the analysis of effective movements. But the crux of the matter is that the system specifies the Eurotest so if you want to make a lifelong career of ski instructing in Europe, them's the rules. I'm sure anyone with a qulification of any sort probably had a mandatory part of the course that they didn't enjoy or didn't see as relevant to what they want to do in future, but if it's a mandatory part of the course you have to live with it and heave a sigh of relief when you pass that module. Taking that as a given, anyone who has been racing from age 4 will surely have an advantage over someone who only takes it up at age 20 or 30+ purely for the purposes of passing the Eurotest in the same way that someone who has lived in France will have an advantage in an oral exam over someone who has only had conversation classes once a week.
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GrahamN, skimottaret, thank you for your responses.
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eng_ch, sorry, you too!
Now, given the other thread about men being more interested in speed, and women in technique, then does the racing favour male skiers at a disadvantage to female ones?
And if that happens, are punters not receiving as good technique instruction as they could if the speed challenge was removed?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I very much doubt it. I don't believe the first premise anyway - I have some thoughts on that which I've not got around to posting yet. The point about setting the bar at such a high level is that there is no way you can pass that test on strength - your technique must be perfect (excluding the finest of gradations that are only relevant to the world of the WC/EC racers) to pass. There is an argument that the height of the bar for men is such that there is too much emphasis on strength (I've heard the opinion expressed by Eurotest trainers that it's virtually impossible for a male over 40 to pass the Eurotest). The women's bar is set lower (IIRC something like 25% off a WC time for women, 18% for men - but those numbers are off the top of my head so they may not be entirely accurate), so it's actually considered easier for a woman to pass the test than a man.
As rob@rar has said elsewhere, please do get the idea out of your head that speed [edit: "raw speed" was the phrase that eluded me when I first wrote this] is the essence of good racing - it's first and foremost control and line, and the speed to get you through the course in the shortest time follows from it once you get those right.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 12-06-07 16:08; edited 2 times in total
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Wear The Fox Hat, there are female racers and male racers, havent read the thread on speed vs technique but for instructor tests the pass times are set differently depending on sex and all men and women wanna be instructors have to pass the Test Technique to teach in France they must also pass the Eurotest if they aspire to the highest level of qualification.
the Eurotest pass is under 18% for men 24% women as referenced to 0 FIS points (world champion)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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So to be a good physics teacher is it best to have a physics degree and then teacher training?
Or should it be compulsory to have been an outstanding astrophysicist before you are allowed to teach?
Even if not perfectly framed question....you get my drift!
Sorry to the Francophiles here but I think the French system is fundementally flawed. I am 100% sure that the best American, Canadian, Swiss (or even British!) instructors are just as good as the best French.
I am equally sure that the average are comparable in terms of teaching ability....and I stress teaching rather than skiing.
Have some coaching from Warren Smith and his guys....and afterwards ask yourself if it would have been improved had they passed a racing test.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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This thread is going off piste, and was originally intended to get advice on regulations for instructing in Europe and understanding the training requirements and qualifications required in European countries. France was discussed a lot as it was very unclear but Italy is pretty messy as well 
I think the whole "how good of a skier do you have to be to a good teacher" argument has been done loads of times on other threads.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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This is all in danger of diverting what was a remarkably on-topic thread up until now on to a well-trodden path of argument. Oh well. (Ah I see skimottaret has just made the same point)
rungsp, to avoid another easiski explosion as she repeats it for the umpteenth time, the Eurotest is NOT just a French requirement, it's a requirement for the top level qualification of (IIRC) the Eurogroup, consisting of France, Britain, Italy and Austria(?). The Germans are working towards harmonisation on that basis too. Yes, it seems to be the equivalent of a degree.
The thing that seems to be slightly different in France is the requirement for you to be either fully qualified, or working in a training centre. The British (and US and Canadian etc) systems allow for different level of qualifications to work. However we've seen in other related threads that e.g. the Canadian system isn't perfect as you don't know what level of instructor you're going to get until one turns up (unless you've specifically hired a private). I know that I'd be very unhappy if I got a BASI 3 (or CSIA or PSIA II) to teach me stuff when I'd been expecting a 1 or 2 (or III/IV). There may be an argument that you don't need degree-level Physics teachers at Primary level, but I think it's a very good idea to have them at Secondary, and vital at 6th form level.
I've not had coaching from WS, but I have from PS. He certainly makes use of his experience as All-England champion.
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Poster: A snowHead
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OK, I'll shut up now and go back to "pootling around the mountain", since I've no desire or ability to go as fast (but it's not about speed) as would be required for me to be considered "good enough"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, I'll be there on 23rd. This weekend I'm in Paris.
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brian
brian
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It comes down to how good a skier do you want your top level of instructors to be ?
The eurotest is objective, it's not somebody standing watching you with a clipboard. If you get the time you've passed, you can't get the time without having excellent technique. Of course it's possible to have excellent technique and not be able to go as fast over a course due to lack of strength, fitness etc.
However, if I was going to suggest a change, I think it's arguable that some sort of age handicap might be a good idea as it does present an effective barrier to older entrants to the profession.
(... and who knows my stock options might come in one day and allow a career change ).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
think it's arguable that some sort of age handicap might be a good idea as it does present an effective barrier to older entrants to the profession.
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i would vote for that!!!!!! i have heard the oldest to pass the eurotest was 46.
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| brian wrote: |
| However, if I was going to suggest a change, I think it's arguable that some sort of age handicap might be a good idea as it does present an effective barrier to older entrants to the profession. |
That would make sense - it seems a shame to exclude the experience benefits that older entrants to the profession would bring simply on the basis of natural physical slowing that may have nothing to do with their technique.
FWIW, going back on topic, whilst, according to Easiski, Switzerland isn't in the Eurogroup, the Eurotest is still part of their full qualification (eidgenössisch diplomierte(r) SkilehrerIn - which is the same official qualification title as any other profession here such as accountants)
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eng_ch, It was reported somewhere that at the last ISIA conference virtually all countries were in favour of adopting a form of the Eurotest as part of their qualification process.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| IAs rob@rar has said elsewhere ... |
Thanks for noticing that  Too many people think that speed is about having lots of bottle, kind of a macho thing. It couldn't be further from the truth, in my very limited experience.
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rob@rar, I think it might be fair to say it needs a bit of bottle to become familiar with speed in the first place - do you remember how terrifying it was to drive at 40 mph for the first time while learning to drive, having never turned a hair at that speed as a passenger? But I would agree that when you're in control, it doesn't feel so fast (in my even more limited experience) - if it feels fast perhaps the control isn't all it c/should be (unless you have lots of racing experience and are comparing like with like). The trick is dialling in that control so it's second nature
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| rob@rar, I think it might be fair to say it needs a bit of bottle to become familiar with speed in the first place |
If you're relying on bottle you are skiing beyond your ability and you should slow down.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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eng_ch, rob@rar, I think there's a bit of chicken and egg here. You get moments that every instinct in your body is screaming at you that if you try that and lose it you're going to clatter straight through that pole etc and hurt yourself, so back off and run away NOW! But your head is saying "just do what you've demonstrated to yourself several times over you can do and you'll make that turn". The more you convince yourself to stick with it and make it, the less the reflexes scream. The big problem is when they each get an equal vote! 
(But we must stop hijacking this thread)
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rob@rar, I think that's a tad simplistic. At some point surely we all rely on bottle to progress It's purely a familiarity thing, fear of the unknown, doing it for the first time before you know you can ski at a particular speed in control. If it doesn't take bottle to push your comfort zone, by definition you're not actually expanding your comfort zone? Once you have proven to yourself that you can do something new successfully and consistently (e.g. ski fast and in control / maintain control at a higher speed) then I absolutely agree it's not macho nor does it require bottle to repeat it. But that first time? More often than not IME it's a case of "feel the fear and do it anyway". Rob, you're considerably further up the learning curve than I am and I suspect you've got that consistency better dialled in than I have yet so are possibly less likely than me to get the "yikes" moments that GrahamN refers to, but I'm sure you've experienced it?
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Tue 12-06-07 19:28; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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eng_ch and GrahamN, fair points, but if you're way out there relying on brute force and misplaced courage I'd still say you're skiing too far outside your ability and slowing down would be a good thing to do. Pushing the envelope is one thing, but bursting out of it altogether on a public piste is not entirely sensible...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| Rob, you're considerably further up the learning curve than I am and I suspect you've got that consistency better dialled in than I have yet so are possibly less likely than me to get the "yikes" moments that GrahamN refers to, but I'm sure you've experienced it? |
Just once this season, and I was not happy with myself for getting that quick and that out of control. The piste was very quiet (although I did sweep past the outside of RachelQ at a rate of knots) so I was able to wait until the snow conditions allowed me to scrub off a bit of speed, but there was a very nervous 30 seconds as I waited for the piste to flatten out and get less bumpy. I've never enjoyed GSing a field of gentle bumps  I took a bit more care about my choice of line for the rest of the day...
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, some people are naturally cautious and doing anything new takes a lot of courage, others are willing to have a go at anything. Your comments seem to refer to the latter. On another thread easiski said you don't have courage (bottle) if you don't have fear to overcome - I would venture that the truly dangerous people on piste are those who have no fear and don't realise that fast does not equal good, not those that are scared and overcome it. I think you're right that there are indeed people out there relying on brute force and misplaced courage to ski outside their ability, but it think it is spurious to conclude that everyone who relies on bottle to do something is outside their ability. It takes a hell of a lot of bottle just to get back on skis after an injury, or back in a car after an accident; you - or at least I - cannot conclude that ergo one shouldn't do either.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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eng_ch, maybe, although I think we are discussing semantics rather than anything else. However, I stand by my original point: to be a quick skier requires technique not the lack of fear or the ability to overcome it.
Anyway, apologising for gatecrashing this interesting thread with one of my hobby horses. Please resume normal service.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| eng_ch, maybe, although I think we are discussing semantics rather than anything else. However, I stand by my original point: to be a quick skier requires technique not the lack of fear or the ability to overcome it. |
Snap. And yes, I agree with you - my perspective probably stems from being behind you on that learning curve, there's still a lot that's new to me (or at least not as familiar to me as I would like)
| Quote: |
| Anyway, apologising for gatecrashing this interesting thread with one of my hobby horses. Please resume normal service. |
Ditto.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 12-06-07 19:42; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| Am I right in thinking you're talking about people who get into situations through ignorance or accident and then rely on bottle to get out of it, then think because they got out of it that once that ergo the situation was OK because they had the bottle to get out of it? |
Yes, that's roughly what I'm talking about, although my concern is with the people who think they are good skiers because they get away with skiing that fast despite the fact they rely on courage/lack of fear rather than sound technique.
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rob@rar, as this digression started in the context of racing, that's where my comments are directed, rather than the public piste. I find the "yikes" moments always come when convincing your reflexes that your technique is up to the job. In the absence of the fear of getting it wrong, you are perfectly OK, but the fear factor stiffens your muscles, your technique goes out the window and it all goes Pete Tong.
At least that's my excuse for what happened on Sunday!
On public pistes - hmm - probably agree with you there, which is one reason I avoid them most of the time. One day in Gressoney though on the run home the piste was deserted and a race sort of developed between Pete Silver-Gillespie and me. I kept with him a good half of the way down, but then botched a half-hearted attempt at cutting past him and took an ill-advised line through slush-bumps....unfortunately I decided I couldn't stick with it, tried to bale out and the inevitable then happened  .
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 12-06-07 19:47; edited 1 time in total
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rob@rar, ah yes, I was going to add on "and ergo that they are good skiers". OK, I'm with you - both in understanding what you're referring to and agreeing with your take on it!
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| I find the "yikes" moments always come when convincing your reflexes that your technique is up to the job. |
Sort of the difference between rationally knowing you have the technique and achieving a gut belief that you have it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eng_ch, yep...and I suspect the one-word equivalent of that phrase is "experience" (which is sort of what you've been saying all along)
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eng_ch, GrahamN,
I'm a total chicken - they up my speed in small degrees... done that way I don't really notice... it sneaks in with the technical improvements.... ask Fastman if he appears anytime soon... he changed the speed I skied at quite markedly in a short time and no bottle required for that... (getting me in the race course itself took a shove - but that was a psychological thing not a speed thing)... If I feel technically safe then higher speeds feel the same....
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FAQ
Am I right in thinking you're talking about people who get into situations through ignorance or accident and then rely on bottle to get out of it, then think because they got out of it that once that ergo the situation was OK because they had the bottle to get out of it? (If you can follow that convoluted sentence) I'm thinking more of people who are well aware - possibly too aware - of the potential dangers of what they are about to embark on and what can go wrong and therefore need bottle to do it anyway