 Poster: A snowHead
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alex_heney, the offence took place outside the UK  (unless resort X is in England and Wales).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| alex_heney wrote: |
Legally, theft requires intent to permanently and dishonestly deprive another of their property. (Theft Act 1978 in the UK) |
So all I have to do when accosted by the police in your Ferrarri is say 'Aghh but I was going to return it just now before you stopped me' and I'd be not guilty?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A few years ago, a friend of a friend in our big party (let's call her Mrs X) took Mrs L's custom-fitted boots - with the result that she missed a lesson. She returned them at lunchtime, laughing it off, without a hint of an apology. Mrs L was controlled but blunt. Mr X accosts Mrs L a few mins later to say that her words were uncalled for(!) - carefully choosing his time when I was in the self-service queue at the restaurant. Yours truly subsequently offers free health advice to Mr X. We've never seen them again. 
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Agenterre, I think had your own Ferrari been parked near the one you mistakenly took, and the keys fited the locks then you would have a defence.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Agenterre wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
Legally, theft requires intent to permanently and dishonestly deprive another of their property. (Theft Act 1978 in the UK) |
So all I have to do when accosted by the police in your Ferrarri is say 'Aghh but I was going to return it just now before you stopped me' and I'd be not guilty? |
No, they created another specific offence precisely to cater for "joyriders", which only applies to vehicles. Section 12 of the Theft Act 1968 (previous post was a mistype when I said 1978) - Taking motor vehicle or other conveyance without authority.
For any other articles, the prosecution do have to show beyond reaosnable doubt that you did not intend returning the item.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
AxsMan,
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I think 'theft' may be the technically / legally correct term
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No, it is most definitely not the technically/legally correct term.
Legally, theft requires intent to permanently and dishonestly deprive another of their property. (Theft Act 1978 in the UK) |
Ok I'm no lawyer, but my point was really that this was NOT a case of theft anyway. 
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| bh1 wrote: |
| alex_heney, the offence took place outside the UK (unless resort X is in England and Wales). |
Yes I know.
I don't know the Swiss law, but I expect it is very similar. I don't know of any country where theft does not require deliberate intent.
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alex_heney,
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But if somebody brings them back, saying "oops sorry" or words to that effect, then it obviously was not theft, and you would not get a police force to prosecute anybody
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I never said I would get the police to prosecute someone. I said I would report it as I could not assume that the skis might be returned. If they were returned later I would then have to speak to the police again at even more inconvenience to myself.
Frosty the Snowman,
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The mistake will not be repeated. I am at a loss that you cannot see it this way
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I accept it was a mistake - but this does not restore someone's lost morning/day skiing.
I don't get this. Someone makes a mistake and invites opinion but it seems to be rather unpopular to provide an opinion that we don't want our skis taken/stolen 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| bh1 wrote: |
| alex_heney, the offence took place outside the UK (unless resort X is in England and Wales). |
Have Scotland and NI seceded?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Agenterre, They call that a "brick" up here 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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[rant]
I have read this thread from start to finish and an genuinely shocked by some of the comments here.
Megamum took the wrong pair of skis, which was bad, but not deliberate, and a genuine mistake. She realised her error and then took them back, explained and apologied for the mistake (and by the sounds of it actaully did feel bad and sorry about it). Yet still she is being strung up like she is a criminal.
I to would have been pi$$ed if someone took my ski (my mistake or otherwise), but mistakes happen, she said she was wrong, no harm done. hell, by reading it, the actual owner of the skis didn't even miss out on any skiing.
Get of your high horses folks, smell the roses, a new skier made a mistake that is not overly difficult to make (judging by the comments here at least), and gets called a criminal.
Sure, she asked for an opinion, and she got some, i just think calling someone a thief for making that kind of mistake is a little OTT
[/rant]
I feel better now, thanks.
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stevec,
Spot on, enough with the barrack room lawyers (any genuine Officers of the Court please accept my apologies)
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You know it makes sense.
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| Agenterre wrote: |
alex_heney, OK , bad example so if I knicked your skis/whatever and said I was going to return them at the end of the week (as I wouldn't need them again), the police wouldn't prosecute ? UK law is an a*** !
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They would probably try to find something to prosecute you for. They could almost certainly get you for criminal damage if you had used them, and put even the smallest scratch on them.
And they may well try to prosecute you for theft, and if the jury were convinced beyond reasonable doubt that you were lying about intending to return them, then you would be convicted.
And I could sue you for any losses caused by my not having them during that period.
But yes, in general, borrowing something without authority is not a criminal offence in the UK.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Caspar,
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Anyhow, I took them directly back after my lesson, and was just leaving the basement when another family arrived - their teenager looked up and down the racks of predominately dry skis and then discovers ones that look like hers wet and snowy. I tentatively enquire if they are hers - yes (oh...no...thinks I, but luckily they had not missed them whilst I had my lesson), so I try to describe what I've done with huge apologies and embarassment and mum seems to immediately comprehend and indicates that she is not annoyed. Luckily I don't see them the rest of the week!!
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No skiing lost. Dont get me wrong though as we were furious the 3 times it has happened to us.
I think this is a very enlightening thread and one that all skiers should read.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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AxsMan, I am uncomfortable with the amount of thrashing of the bottom cheeks that your post suggests. Please check which forum in "my favourites" you have just clicked on
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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AxsMan,
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I hope I get some of you on my jury if I ever end up in court
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So all I have to do when accosted by the police in your Ferrarri is say 'Aghh but I was going to return it just now before you stopped me' and I'd be not guilty?
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Strangely enough you are Not Guilty until proven Guilty. It is up to your defense to argue you were going to return it and up to the prosecution to provide you weren't.
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Megamum, Sorry if I seemed a bit harsh - it's a particular annoyance of mine. As it happens, I always use a lock (for the same reason). However, having read some of the entries above, I am now also getting concerned for my boots 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Caspar, FWIW Someone once tried to steal my curry. A fork produces a very jagged cut.
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Frosty the Snowman, was that after 15 pints of lager? - Chances are he intended giving it back!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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This has been fun but I must leave you to it - I have to sort everything out to go to La Plagne tomorrow 
Note to self: Must pack lock, must pack lock, must pack lock...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The assumption of a theie lurking around every corner is an interesting one.
Last summer we were at our shack in Le Chable (near Verbier) and rented fome mountain bikes for the week.
The shop only had two types of bikes: expensive bikes and very expensive bikes (to buy that is, rental rates were not high).
We got our bikes and asked him for lights..."mais bien sur" and then locks "mais pourquois?"
Down in the valley it seems people just don't bother to lock their bikes...no theft, so why even bother to have locks.
It still felt a bit wierd to leave them just propped against a lamp-post while we went to a bar/shop....but it was quite normal, and the bikes were still there at the end of an evening.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In answer to the original question,
I'm afraid that, Megamum the answer is yes. You were lucky this time that it didn't seem to create too much hassle, but it can be a right bloody pain in the back bottom, especially if you have to go and report them as stolen.
However if my skis went missing out of the ski locker, without anyone elses being stolen, and there were a similar pair to mine left, then my first assumption would be that such a mistake had been made. I would have hired alternate skis for the day, and presented the cuprit with the bill that evening or the next day, making it quite clear that I expected them to pay for their mistake. I would also expect them to pay for any missed lessons or guiding etc as a consequence of their mistake. As long as they were prepared to do this, and grovel appropriately for the trouble that they'd caused, it would be pretty churlish not to forgive them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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mistermouse, I think I'd generally give things a couple of hours to turn up (unless it was a credit card ). A lot of the time, in my house at least, things are generally lost, misplaced, forgotten and often do turn up. Mind you we did even act and report credit cards one day only to find they all fell out of shirt pocket when the washing machine was emptied - about 5 of the rotten things - caused all sorts of hassle with getting replacements!
The only thing to add is that I desperately wanted to take the skis back the moment I realised what had happened - but 1/2 way up the slope with the instructor and one hell of a language barrier meant there was no way of getting him to understand what I wanted to do. As it turned out the fact that it meant I waited another 15 mins more meant I did meet the family and could explain - it saved me having to leave a note (which I have done in the past on the one occasion I clipped someones door in a carpark - even though there was no apparent damage!).
I was brought up with a very finely divided sense of whats right and whats wrong, and that you should never be in the wrong. Therefore, its right to admit things (hence this thread). I have handed in solid gold watches, wallets, tenners that I have seen folks drop at agricultural shows etc. I fully believe that what goes round comes round - this is supported by the fact that I have twice had my own purse handed in to the local cop shop complete with cash and credit cards after leaving it in the village telephone box. Also, on this years trip I handed back in to the central restaurant for collection, a pair of ROD goggles and an expensive looking childs mitten that I found on two separate occasions in the carpark, perhaps it was the right and wrong balance concept that meant things turned out OK with the ski incident.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Not a comment on this particular subject......but I do find Resort X one I wouldn't particularly wish to visit. Not even a shop in the resort and instructors who can't speak basic English. How can they teach you if they don't even understand enough English to explain the boots situation?
By the way - we always lock our skis up to prevent accidental taking. I think a mistake not theft in this case. But Megamum, if you're inviting comments, you've been around here long enough to know you will get all shades of comments .
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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cathy, I know, I really know......!!
Mind you my German is just as lapse as their English - they are used to dealing with a local Swiss clientelle you see. They demonstrate - I try to follow - All sort of things are understood by arm waving a few words in both languages. My instructor spent 10 years on the Swiss racing team circuit, but clearly not much was conducted in English!
Only <14Km of Piste as well!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| cathy wrote: |
| By the way - we always lock our skis up to prevent accidental taking. |
I think that's the biggest risk to be honest, as shown in this thread. Plus it also helps you (and the Megamums out there) to identify your pair of yellow skis with the blue lock hanging round them from their pair of yellow skis with no lock hanging round them.
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Frosty the Snowman, Any birching of Bottom cheeks required ? You know who to call
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FAQ
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