“ blackened heaps along the side of the road, decorated at random with dog turds.”
And things can change between that enticing image and the desired idyllic, picture postcard look within a day or two, no matter how long one leaves it to book.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pam w wrote:
Quote:
it’s just asking for trouble IMO.
not if he's a sensible lad who will understand the difference between US and European arrangements. Not all teenagers are idiots. Given that some parents who ski with teenagers announce proudly that they "absolutely will not slow down" I'm not sure that being accompanied is any kind of guarantee of sensible behaviour . If I told one of my teenagers to slow down, and they refused, they'd not get a second chance. Having said that, I once sauntered gently down a little gully in La Rosiere, without a care in the world, and turned a corner to see my 15 year old sitting on the bank beside his snowboard, smoking.
This leads to the mention of European countries have lower drinking ages than US - something to consider with teenagers.
Also, if I had a teenager who had been brought up on riding in-bounds in North America, there’s no way I’d let them ride on their own in Europe, it’s just asking for trouble IMO.
Could you elaborate why? How to use ski lifts, to be aware of your surroundings, look up when you go across or start moving - it's all universal. What am I missing here?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
johnE wrote:
We did British airways to Japan in January and they allowed 2 checked bags per passenger. We used the second Chechen bag for skis. They were quite happy with 2 pairs per bag as well. I suspect they do San Francisco to Venice with a change in London but bags checked through all the way.
2 checked bags means Premium Economy or higher. A regular Economy is 1 checked bag.
I truly hope the bags would be checked through all the way. But, as someone mentioned earlier, the more connections, the more change to get your baggage delayed or lost.
Also, if I had a teenager who had been brought up on riding in-bounds in North America, there’s no way I’d let them ride on their own in Europe, it’s just asking for trouble IMO.
Could you elaborate why? How to use ski lifts, to be aware of your surroundings, look up when you go across or start moving - it's all universal. What am I missing here?
I love your answer ... love it !!!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@pam w, I hope your 15 year old was just going through a phase.
I mean it’s so bad for your health, causes discomfort and 2nd hand health risks to others, especially in confined spaces and can be a gateway to more extreme dangerous behaviour.
The dark side can look so appealing at that age. Did they manage to quit smoking too?
After all it is free
After all it is free
@ketya77, I understand some of the concerns expressed about difficulty finding desirable accommodation last minute. Worth pointing out that early to mid January always has way more unboxed accommodation available than in the mid March example quoted.
Nevertheless, if your preference is to book early, then all things considered, I’d favour the Dolomites.
Unless an Italian new year party is high up your bucket list, I wouldn’t depart for Europe until 5/6 January. If possible I’d leave it a week later.
If I could find accommodation I liked, at a price I could afford, ideally I’d go for a base in Corvara or Colfosco. Possibly San Cassiano and maybe Arabba too.
I’d go for a private shared taxi from Venice Marco Polo (€320 one way this season). Alternatively, if the cost was similar and you don’t mind driving up the mountains, rent a car. A car’s not a necessity but opens up easier excursions to, say, the Hidden Valley, Cinque Torre and Kronplatz.
I think Lech would also tick plenty of your boxes. I don’t know Saalbach but from what I read and hear, that may suit too.
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Quote:
Could you elaborate why? How to use ski lifts, to be aware of your surroundings, look up when you go across or start moving - it's all universal. What am I missing here?
As i previous mentioned, the biggest difference is the on/off piste and avalanche control. If you teenagers are used to skiing the whole mountain, they just need to be aware of the much more important need to be able to read terrain and know where they're skiing if they leave the marked pistes in Europe
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
PeakyB wrote:
If I could find accommodation I liked, at a price I could afford, ideally I’d go for a base in Corvara or Colfosco. Possibly San Cassiano and maybe Arabba too.
I’d go for a private shared taxi from Venice Marco Polo (€320 one way this season).
Just to point out that a private taxi with Venice cabs who a lot of snowHeads have used is a bit cheaper than that, € 300 to Corvara, Colfosco or San Cassiano, and € 270 to Arabba for a taxi for 4 to 5 passengers.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Alastair Pink, good point, I was basing it on the 5 or 6 passengers + big luggage and snow sliding stuff this season.
What with inflation though, I might budget at €320 for next season, even for just 4 passengers.
Venice Cabs provide a great service and you pay the driver upon arrival.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@nbt, I’d just buy from a local hardware shop a couple of tools, just in case ‘the teenagers’ disobeyed any crucial safety rules.
Hammer (with nails) for first offence.
Saw for a 2nd and final offence.
Harsh but fair, Dinsdale.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
ketya77 wrote:
Kramer wrote:
Also, if I had a teenager who had been brought up on riding in-bounds in North America, there’s no way I’d let them ride on their own in Europe, it’s just asking for trouble IMO.
Could you elaborate why? How to use ski lifts, to be aware of your surroundings, look up when you go across or start moving - it's all universal. What am I missing here?
Yes.
In North America, as long as you’re within the ski resort bounds, you’re ok to ride anywhere. In Europe that’s not the case, and something that can look entirely innocuous can in fact be really dangerous. If someone is used to being able to free ride wherever they want, they may struggle to appreciate the danger in what on the surface appears to be a similar situation.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Kramer wrote:
ketya77 wrote:
Kramer wrote:
Also, if I had a teenager who had been brought up on riding in-bounds in North America, there’s no way I’d let them ride on their own in Europe, it’s just asking for trouble IMO.
Could you elaborate why? How to use ski lifts, to be aware of your surroundings, look up when you go across or start moving - it's all universal. What am I missing here?
Yes.
In North America, as long as you’re within the ski resort bounds, you’re ok to ride anywhere. In Europe that’s not the case, and something that can look entirely innocuous can in fact be really dangerous. If someone is used to being able to free ride wherever they want, they may struggle to appreciate the danger in what on the surface appears to be a similar situation.
Got it. Thank you. Then it's a problem not just for a teenager but for anyone who skies in Europe for the first time. How do they mark safe areas in Europe? With flags? fences?
Saalbach's website describe them as a "freeride mecca" - I wonder whether it means that they are different from other European resorts and make the whole resort's area safe to ride.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
How do they mark safe areas in Europe?
Pole markers on the side of the piste. And if the lift is closed, a tape across the top, saying so. Take most website claims with a pinch of salt.......
People DO go outside the marked pistes all the time. Just like people in the States will presumably ski outside resort boundaries. Some of them know what they're doing......
Coverage of winter sports insurance is a much-discussed issue on Snowheads. Many policies will not cover any skiing off-piste. Some that do will insist on a guide and some contains weasel words about "skiing against local advice". Worth finding out from your insurers exactly what they will cover in Europe.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@ketya77, freeride mecca just means there's lots of it easily accessible, not that any of it is avi controlled. As noted up thread somewhere, if you're off piste in Europe you're generally responsible for yourself and recommended to carry the correct gear and take a guide if needed. Also a buddy to call in any accidents!
There will be plenty of good guides so it might be a fun thing to do, to get a different perspective from what you're used to in the US.
ETA this from the Saalbach website: Your safety is our top priority: The Skicircus Saalbach Hinterglemm Leogang Fieberbrunn also has its own Freeride Park, countless freeride routes of varying grades of difficulty, info-point, LVS search fields & checkpoints along with a specially tailored avalanche warning report for the region.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ketya77 wrote:
Got it. Thank you. Then it's a problem not just for a teenager but for anyone who skies in Europe for the first time. How do they mark safe areas in Europe? With flags? fences?
Saalbach's website describe them as a "freeride mecca" - I wonder whether it means that they are different from other European resorts and make the whole resort's area safe to ride.
Yes, it's not specifically a problem of American teenagers, but it is an area that differs significantly from North America. People can, and do, lose their lives within sight of the pistes in Europe.
Why it may be more of a problem for a young person, is that their risk assessment competence will be set to North American standards, rather than European ones, and young people are notoriously prone to struggling with situations where dangers are not immediately apparent.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yes - teenagers are likely to be less risk-averse than their parents (hence the tragic number killed in car accidents a few weeks after they pass their tests) but in Europe the situation is so very clear. If you trust him, you tell your teenager to stay on the piste. If you don't, he skis with you....... on piste or with a guide.
An alternative is to get some private lessons and specify you'd like to go off piste. I've done that a few times, and also did an "introduction to touring" with a guide who thrilled me by conforming to the stereotype to the extent of having his ski poles lashed up with gaffa tape. He also pulled me out from under a bush where my ineptitude had tangled my skis to the extent that I couldn't move.
Got it. Thank you. Then it's a problem not just for a teenager but for anyone who skies in Europe for the first time. How do they mark safe areas in Europe? With flags? fences?
Saalbach's website describe them as a "freeride mecca" - I wonder whether it means that they are different from other European resorts and make the whole resort's area safe to ride.[/quote]
All runs in Europe tend to be well marked, with posts marking each side of the piste, every few yards. Where we ski regularly, in the 3 Valleys in France, the posts (which also show the colour of the run) are no more than 50 yards apart and the right side is marked with a different colour (each post on the right has an orange top), which helps in fog. Left side markers are a single colour only. With that level of run marking it is quite difficult to go off piste unintentionally.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Kenzie wrote:
pam w wrote:
Quote:
it’s just asking for trouble IMO.
not if he's a sensible lad who will understand the difference between US and European arrangements. Not all teenagers are idiots. Given that some parents who ski with teenagers announce proudly that they "absolutely will not slow down" I'm not sure that being accompanied is any kind of guarantee of sensible behaviour . If I told one of my teenagers to slow down, and they refused, they'd not get a second chance. Having said that, I once sauntered gently down a little gully in La Rosiere, without a care in the world, and turned a corner to see my 15 year old sitting on the bank beside his snowboard, smoking.
This leads to the mention of European countries have lower drinking ages than US - something to consider with teenagers.
Most countries 18, Austria & Switzerland 16 (18 for spirits)
not if he's a sensible lad who will understand the difference between US and European arrangements. Not all teenagers are idiots. Given that some parents who ski with teenagers announce proudly that they "absolutely will not slow down" I'm not sure that being accompanied is any kind of guarantee of sensible behaviour . If I told one of my teenagers to slow down, and they refused, they'd not get a second chance. Having said that, I once sauntered gently down a little gully in La Rosiere, without a care in the world, and turned a corner to see my 15 year old sitting on the bank beside his snowboard, smoking.
This leads to the mention of European countries have lower drinking ages than US - something to consider with teenagers.
Most countries 18, Austria & Switzerland 16 (18 for spirits)
Most European countries are 16, at least for beer and wine. Including most of the UK if taken with a meal, which people seem to forget (a bit archaic and dependent on license etc.). It is also the case that pretty much anywhere ion Europe will not bat an eyelid of you order a glass of wine for a teenager when with their parents. Not that I am encouraging teenage drinking but I think this post was not entirely accurate.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
zikomo wrote:
Kenzie wrote:
Kenzie wrote:
pam w wrote:
Quote:
it’s just asking for trouble IMO.
not if he's a sensible lad who will understand the difference between US and European arrangements. Not all teenagers are idiots. Given that some parents who ski with teenagers announce proudly that they "absolutely will not slow down" I'm not sure that being accompanied is any kind of guarantee of sensible behaviour . If I told one of my teenagers to slow down, and they refused, they'd not get a second chance. Having said that, I once sauntered gently down a little gully in La Rosiere, without a care in the world, and turned a corner to see my 15 year old sitting on the bank beside his snowboard, smoking.
This leads to the mention of European countries have lower drinking ages than US - something to consider with teenagers.
Most countries 18, Austria & Switzerland 16 (18 for spirits)
Most European countries are 16, at least for beer and wine. Including most of the UK if taken with a meal, which people seem to forget (a bit archaic and dependent on license etc.). It is also the case that pretty much anywhere ion Europe will not bat an eyelid of you order a glass of wine for a teenager when with their parents. Not that I am encouraging teenage drinking but I think this post was not entirely accurate.
I was referring to the ages the alcohol can be bought by the individual.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Kramer wrote:
ketya77 wrote:
Kramer wrote:
Also, if I had a teenager who had been brought up on riding in-bounds in North America, there’s no way I’d let them ride on their own in Europe, it’s just asking for trouble IMO.
Could you elaborate why? How to use ski lifts, to be aware of your surroundings, look up when you go across or start moving - it's all universal. What am I missing here?
Yes.
In North America, as long as you’re within the ski resort bounds, you’re ok to ride anywhere. In Europe that’s not the case, and something that can look entirely innocuous can in fact be really dangerous. If someone is used to being able to free ride wherever they want, they may struggle to appreciate the danger in what on the surface appears to be a similar situation.
Actually a great point. Think of the pistes as roads, with fields surrounding. The edge of the road is usually pretty obvious. In NA they check the fields and make sure they are safe. In Europe they don't as you are not supposed to be there, so there can be all sorts of hidden rocks, streams, drops etc. They might be fatal, or inconvenient, or injurious, or just a reason for your insurance to not pay out. In the words of Gandalf, don't leave the path.
...unless under professional supervision of course
As above, many people do. That's up to them, their competence and their own private health insurance. Not you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
ketya77 wrote:
Kramer wrote:
Also, if I had a teenager who had been brought up on riding in-bounds in North America, there’s no way I’d let them ride on their own in Europe, it’s just asking for trouble IMO.
Could you elaborate why? How to use ski lifts, to be aware of your surroundings, look up when you go across or start moving - it's all universal. What am I missing here?
Try watching the ski movie "The Blizzard of Aahhh's" to see the difference between USA & Europe, especially off-piste.
Note in Chamonix they used a guide, Plake got lucky, and what happened to the snowboarder they had to help.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@ketya77, ‘Got it. Thank you….’
Great. You can get back to selecting where to go
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Hello everyone,
So, we read everything, and all your comments were super helpful. In the end, we think that we will plan to go to Dolomiti.
First of all, I don't know if we'll be able to afford another trip like that, so this one does have to be memorable. The views in Dolomiti seem to be amazing, based on the photos. Secondly, because we'll be going in the first part of January, and can't be sure about natural snow, I like that Dolomiti has top snow making facilities. The food scene also sounds very promising, especially in the Alta Badia area, based on the comments. Having a nice lunch in the middle of skiing would be a nice change compared to our usual way. Dolomiti is included in the Ikon Pass, so in theory, if we'll go for it, we'll still have to add our local skiing the next season.
The only cumbersome part of this plan is to get to Dolomiti. It requires a flight to Venice with a stopover in London or Zurich, and most likely, spending a night in one of those cities in order to arrive to Venice not too late to catch a shuttle. The flight to Munich would be non-stop but Lufthansa is expensive plus it charges for bringing skis. We think that maybe we'll continue monitor the prices for tickets and will find something. Also, we are comfortable with long drives, so if it would be cheaper to fly to Zurich and rent a car there, it could also be an option.
Do you think I am going into the right direction here? Would Alta Badia be a good fit for us? If yes, may I ask you more questions specific to Dolomiti and Alta Badia? For instance,
- would you recommend choosing the place with the half board option because the food is usually good in these hotels? Or there are so many good options that it's better not to stick to having dinner at the hotel?
- what's about ski rentals in the area? Are some better than the others? If we won't bring our skis, what would be the level of skis we could find there?
- when is the right time to book an hotel there? I see there there are no so many options for January 2024. Is it because most of of them are already sold out? Or because most of them haven't opened their availability so far in advance?
Thank you!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Wow, @ketya77, great decision! Let this be the first of many contradictory replies you will have.
First, given your options, I would definitely drive from Zurich. Google maps says 5 hours. It should be an interesting journey in itself and better than waiting around for a flight then flying over the Dolomites to Venice and having to get a (not inexpensive) shuttle back up. Almost certainly cheaper and quicker.
Second, and more controversial, I would rent an apartment, not stay in a half-board hotel. I love having a good lunch in one of the delightful restaurants on the mountain, but then find I don't always want a big three course evening meal. Evening meals in the same hotel get a bit "samey" and I'm not desperately fond of buffets, which they usually seem to involve. Or limited choice, or always having dessert - which I often don't want but feel resentful about having paid for! I never do justice to enormous breakfast buffets either, though I guess as Americans you're very familiar with those!! For evenings I'd prefer to go out to different restaurants or buy something nice and simple to have in the apartment. A chance to experience more of the local life - there are some wonderful small food shops in Italy, though I don't know the Alta Badia. And the apartment can be stocked with all the drinks you want (coffee and tea, soft drinks, alcohol) at supermarket prices. I also prefer the informality of being able to relax in my own space, not having to choose between an often limited bedroom and "public" spaces.
On availability, accommodation providers are still busy, coming up to the final holiday period of this season. Once you've homed in on an area there'll be lots of people here who can point you in the direction of choosing specific hotels or apartments.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@ketya77, I think @pam w's suggestion of flying into Zurich and renting a car from there to get to the Dolomites has a lot of merit. As she said the route planner apps suggest about 5 hours journey time. Renting from Zurich the car will be equipped with winter tyres(tires) and it will already have an annual vignette which you need to be able to drive legally on the Swiss motorways. Just let the rental company know that you intend taking the car outside of Switzerland, they may make a small additional charge for that or they may not, I don't know never having done that, but I do know for example if you rent a car from Munich airport and take it into Austria they sometimes charge a one off fee of about €20.
Also although having a car with you once you're in the ski resort is not strictly necessary as you can get around the Sella Ronda area using just lifts and skiing it does provide the flexibility of driving to some locations off the Sella Ronda circuit which saves you time in getting there e.g for doing the Hidden Valley run from Lagazuoi (you park at the car park at Passo Falzarego then take the cable car (aerial tram) from there up to the top of Lagazuoi) or having a day skiing in Cortina d'Ampezzo.
As regards accommodation her suggestion of renting an apartment rather than half board in a hotel is a bit of a tougher decision in my view. Both have their merits and I've done both. Half board has the convenience of the evening meal being available for you in your accommodation without you having to put in any effort in preparing it yourself, and it may be an experience which you've not had on previous US based ski trips. If you should decide to rent an apartment in the Alta Badia area then I have stayed in this apartment block in Colfosco: https://www.alpin-apartments.it/en/
They are also on booking.com if you prefer to book via them.
Hope this helps, good luck!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w wrote:
Let this be the first of many contradictory replies you will have.
Spoken like a true Snowhead!
Not that I am going to contradict. Driving from Zurich isn't the most obvious route, but should add to the adventure. I haven't looked to see what the recommended road routes are, but they are all likely to be pretty spectacular though you obviously need to ensure you don't choose one prone to winter closures. And certainly worth considering given you are limited by the flight destinations available.
We have also always preferred self-catering for much the reason Pam says. Two big meals a day is too much, and restaurants on the mountain aren't keen on finding their tables filled up by people having a cheap snack. In practice we usually alternate, some days having a nice lunch and throwing together an easy evening meal, other days working out how to have a light lunch (taking a sandwich can work) to compensate for an evening restaurant meal.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@ketya77, I'm not even going to throw in contradictory advice but just say well chosen, the Dolomites are so beautiful, you're going to have a great trip!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
If you need a car, I expect flying into Munich will be cheaper overall than Zürich. That’s how I do it, although I include Austria since it’s on the way.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Re: half board versus B&B versus self catering in the Dolomites
To us the Dolomites are mainly a summer destination as they have just about the best rock climbing and via ferrata in the world (watch Cliffhanger for the views). So things may be a little different in winter.
Usually we stay in hotels with odd nights in mountain huts. I'll leave out the food in moutain huts as it is mainly about cramming in as many calories as possible and talk about evening meals in hotels.
They will invariably consist of an anti pasta, a pasta, a main course and a pudding. They can vary a lot in quality in different hotels but for me the anti pasta is the highlight with ham, seafood, salad, pears with cheese etc. though in some hotels it is the lowlight simply consisting of a mixed salad. The pasta dish is well a pasta dish. The main course will be something like pork chop with sauce and vegtables. Non of the hotels I've stayed in had a buffet apart from the antipasta and all asked you to selected your main course at breakfast. They were all perfectly happy if you chose not to eat with them in the evening and just go out for a pizza. They all appear to have a 14 day rolling menu.
Now the heresy. I get bored with the sameness of Italian food and end up craving some variety (there is just so much spaghetti vongole I can eat in a fortnight) . Hence I can agree with @pam w and can see the point in self catering. And cook a curry in the evening.
ps @ketya77, Excellent choice, BTW
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@johnE, Large parts of the Dolomites are very Austrian in atmosphere/culture. And so the kitchen is very varied too. Definitely not necessary to have pasta all week. Just need to pick the right accommodation.
@johnE, Large parts of the Dolomites are very Austrian in atmosphere/culture. And so the kitchen is very varied too. Definitely not necessary to have pasta all week. Just need to pick the right accommodation.
Totally agree. I’m headed there tomorrow, and I’m pretty sure I’ll have salmon at least one night at my hotel, where Italian is the third language spoken after German and Ladin.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The half board versus rent your own place argument is very much down to personal taste, obviously. I make no secret that I don't like hotels though I've stayed at some very good ones (mostly for work when someone else is paying the bill) and I've not particularly enjoyed the food at either of the half board hotels I've been on with Snowheads bashes in the Dolomites. I have enjoyed a variety of lunch spots MUCH more and then really not been terribly hungry in the evening. There probably are hotels with quite wonderful food, but they'd probably be extremely expensive!
Of course half board hotels are happy if you decide to go out for a pizza instead. But.........
I'm not a great fan of pasta, but there's masses of other delicious food to enjoy in the Dolomites.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Yes there is, but it seems ALWAYS on the menu for the evening meal in a hotel because it's what the Italians demand. My son is a brilliant cook - has cooked for high end Parisian bankers in their private chalet in Courchevel 1850 and had glowing reviews. He had an Italian girlfriend for a bit (and has an Italian son as a result, but that's another story.....) and often cooked for her family, who were discerning and loved his food. But he never dared to cook them a meal without pasta. He just didn't think they'd go for it. Very conservative.....
After all it is free
After all it is free
Another aspect of staying in these hotels is that you don’t have to go get a reservation for dinner every night. Removes a lot of stress. You can always bail out if you don’t like what’s being served that night.
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Quote:
You can always bail out if you don’t like what’s being served that night.
Yes, of course, and I rarely ate my way through the evening menu. But it's a bit of a waste of money.......
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Scooter in Seattle wrote:
Another aspect of staying in these hotels is that you don’t have to go get a reservation for dinner every night. Removes a lot of stress. You can always bail out if you don’t like what’s being served that night.
Ÿes, or skip one or two of the courses, which is what I do. Pasta is only one of four courses, customarily.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Having said that, I once sauntered gently down a little gully in La Rosiere, without a care in the world, and turned a corner to see my 15 year old sitting on the bank beside his snowboard, smoking. 
