 Poster: A snowHead
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@gixxerniknik, no doubt there is crossover between skiing and snowboarding. There is also a lot of differences. There is a reason we generally don't see mixed competitions where snowboarders and skiers compete against each other. Which is what makes direct comparison hard - e.g. a Freeride world tour snowboarder might straight air a cliff, where's a similar ability skier would be expected to 360 the same feature.
I just think it seems more straightforward to compare on a curve. So for example is it easier to reach the top 20% of all skiers or all snowboarders? I'd hypothesise it's similar difficulty, but I don't have any evidence.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@boarder2020, when you first weighed into that thread, there was no mention of Carv it was just about technique, yet you felt qualified to comment on it, without even putting in the caveat that you don't ski.
I'm pretty sure you've also commented in various ski-touring theads as well.
Maybe you should set up your signature to say "I'm a PHD but don't actually ski" 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Weathercam, here's my original post in that thread:
[quote]
As others have said a lot of it is what was deemed the "proper" way to ski in whatever generation the person started learning.
The idea of chasing an optimum ski technique seems pretty pointless. There are too many different techniques observable in elite skiers. That's before you consider biological differences between people (i.e. hip shape may well influence stance width comfort).
Also as pointed out above, the science suggests that the best athletes have more movement variability than intermediates. (This is wierdly even true for very closed activities like piano playing and triple jump). Being flexible to adapt technique for conditions and situations is clearly advantageous to ski ability.
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Imo this is a problem with the technique focused approach skiers take. Is changing technique actually going to improve performance? What is the end goal?
I have spoken before about my instructor friend with beautiful technique who can't ski off piste to save her life. On the other hand I'm nowhere close to technically perfect, but can get down most things with decent style - which I expect is the goal for many. Improving my technique would take money and time which could be spent much more enjoyably elsewhere. While it may make me slightly better, it's not going to open up anything new for me I can't already do.
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In fairness to you, I didn't specifically state when I was talking about my technique it was in relation to snowboarding. So perhaps I could have been more clear, but I've never claimed to ski, and my username is probably a bit of a give away.
I don't think it really changes the point of my post though. There's nothing in there particularly controversial. As you can see it's very general more science/theory based stuff. I'm certainly not trying to act as a coach or offer any technical advice. (In fact my main argument is that "optimum" technique is a bit of a fallacy!).
As always, feel free to pm me if you want to discuss it rather than derail this thread. Thanks for the distraction though, I'm sitting on the trainer and your posts are a nice distraction 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@boarder2020, well hopefully now people will take a lot of your posts with the pinch of salt that they deserve, I always when reading yours had my BS radar going
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@Weathercam, I'm pretty sure what @boarder2020 has credentialised is his ability to do biomechnical analysis while being sport agnostic. I can see in some circumstances being a skier might actually inhibit the objectiveness of observations if the commentator superimposes what he thinks might be going on from his own experience. You trust Carv implicitly yet it can't actually ski either it's just software running off data from a logging device. I'd be impressed (and it would actually probably be good marketing) if Carv could build a Carvbot that took it's optimal scores and actually skied. In fact the Carvbot could do a really interesting progression from bag of spanners through dangerous wonk and blue run hero to skiing god.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, there's also been a whole history of him commenting on other posts, without the tiny little caveat that he doesn't actually ski, which I find a tad frustrating, and how are we to know that he is as qualified as he says he is. I would have thought with all his sports science, nutrition etc etc he'd have a website or something?
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 9-02-23 10:18; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@boarder2020, how is there ANY skill crossover between boarding and skiing??
I mean there’s precious little between skating and skiing and at least you’re facing the same direction 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My people don't as much take crossover skills from skiers - more 'warnings from history'. It's why flatland tricks are limited to 3 each to prevent the outbreak of ski ballet.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Weathercam, it’s the old argument between book learning & real world experience.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Weathercam, the last time you made out I was lying about my experiences I took photos of passport pages showing I'd been to a bunch of places you doubted and a bunch of season passes for resorts across BC. Never did get a sorry, perhaps I shouldn't have claimed you were a liar with no evidence 
I don't think you are stupid, so maybe you are just trolling. Either way I'm on the trainer and bored so let's kill some time.
In sports science it's absolutely normal that someone with a fundamental understanding of general concepts can apply them to individual sports. As I said above, I did biomechanical assessments for a few golfers without ever having played. Last time I was in a lab having my cycling lactate thresholds measured the women doing it has zero interest in cycling. Any good dietician can prescribe a pretty good diet plan to any athlete without knowing the technicalities and intricacies of a specific sport.
Giving an example relevant to yourself I could show you a photo of a bike, with all its specs, components, groupset, weight etc. I'm sure you would be able to make a pretty good assessment of some of its pros/cons and how it could be improved. All without ever having even seen the bike in person or ridden it.
On the other end of things I have a friend of a friend with a very nice canyon speedmax. He couldn't even tell you what groupset is on it! Some sports engineers know more about bikes than 99% of world tour pros without ever riding a bike. The idea that using something provides expertise or vice versa is very flawed
I would be the first to tell you I'm not the person to offer practical coaching. My background is very much the other end of the spectrum in the theory and scientific testing. Over the years I've had many interesting discussions with coaches and ofcourse we don't agree on everything, but there is learning in both directions.
If you have a criticism of anything I've said feel free to point out what is wrong with it. There are plenty of alternate theories of skill acquisition and movement analysis, we can have a very interesting conversation.
Simply saying someone's opinion is not valid, without being able to point to what they've actually said being wrong is a bit authoritarian. Carv aren't sponsoring one of your reviews are they?!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@boarder2020, like I said, just put a simple cavaet in your signature saying you don't actually ski.
Trust me I'll be the first to point that little fact out next time you post in a thread about skiing
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@boarder2020, the reason I didn't apologise was that it all seemed a little vague, post your intervals.icu and I'll apologise, and might even buy you a beer should we ever meet up
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So the thread is up to four pages now, CBA to re-read every reply, but just going back to the original post, does _anyone_ actually "think that snowboarding is more difficult than skiing" ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@boarder2020, how is there ANY skill crossover between boarding and skiing??
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There's loads. I've not boarded for 20+ years, and then only a few times to get the hang of it, but I have successfully used my ski instructor knowledge to help improve snowboarders, on and off piste.
The physics of the ski or board, the shape, the edge(s) work the same way for both, so the rider is trying to do similar things with their weight distribution and rotation to make it work best. Notably, the "weight too far back" problem is equally true for both, particularly noticeable on steep off-piste, which for both the can lead to issues like over-rotation, and is really quite easy to spot once you know what you're looking for, and for which in both cases the remedy can be to lean downhill over the board/skis (oversimplifying, but YKWIM).
So yeah, IME a decent boarder will pick up skiing _much_ more quickly than someone who's starting from fresh.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Personally I found snowboarding more difficult but then I went snowboarding a couple of times in my twenties with no lessons. I did find if I caught the front edge I made contact very heavily with the snow in about a 1000th of a second. I also almost broke my coccyx and was almost in tears every time I fell backwards until there was a massive dump of snow. I really struggled with drag lifts and at the end of the one day with a long queue for the lift the attendant after I fell off several times let me lay on my back and get dragged up the mountain. I was also quite fit at the time but after about a thousand uphill sit ups in the first few days was a bit achey. But I absolutely loved it. Then I took up skiing and had lessons every year for several years. Nowhere near as many falls and even when I have fallen I’ve always had time to put my hands out. Lifts are easier as are flat sections. If I had several weeks a year I’d love to do both.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| ....So yeah, IME a decent boarder will pick up skiing _much_ more quickly than someone who's starting from fresh..... |
A Snowboarder Facing A Steep Learning Curve
When a backcountry snowboarder for over 30 years decides to swap one plank for two, how hard can it be? Check out how our sideways rider is on a steep learning curve and finding his way in a ski resort...
https://www.stylealtitude.com/snowboarder-learning-to-ski.html
Only trouble was staying with me often results in too much red wine and meat
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| So the thread is up to four pages now, CBA to re-read every reply, but just going back to the original post, does _anyone_ actually "think that snowboarding is more difficult than skiing" ? |
Yeah, that escalated slowly.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@boarder2020, How else will you know that you're properly having fun unless you can correlate and corroborate it in your Seiler Decoupling Chart.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Can we go back to the original post?
| Mid4656 wrote: |
| I am lucky enough to ski or board for around 14 weeks each winter. I do snowboard but generally prefer skiing as it is more challenging and arguably more versatile and certainly takes much longer to become very proficient. I am sometimes intrigued by my perception that most people seem to think that snowboarding is more difficult than skiing when clearly the opposite is true, apart from perhaps the first two or three days. I am wondering whether others here might have an answer to that question? |
What evidence do you have that...
a) most people think that.
b) the opposite is true.
c)what was the question....
And (separately) to save me trawling back through 4pages, when did the @boarder2020, @Weathercam, spat start?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 14-02-23 21:07; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| adithorp wrote: |
| ...And (separately) to save me trawling back through 4pages, when did the @boarder2020, @Weathercam, spat start? |
About four years ago when I began to question how genuine his posts were, aka BS
And the icing on the cake this time was when he let slip he's never actually skied yet thinks he's qualified to comment on numerous posts about skiing based on his supposed academic record, which now seems to envelop every conceivable aspect of sports science  |
He disagrees with my take on some things he likes such as carv and Strava. Plus generally likes to play devils advocate (I'm pretty sure some of the things he's argued for he doesn't really believe, or he just has zero understanding of the science). He has numerous requests for my Strava or intervals.icu which seems a bit weird as it's never had anything to do with what we are discussing.
Yes you called me out for lying. Which I showed wasn't the case, uploading passport stamps and a bunch of season passes. I have a degree in sports science, msc in sports biomechanics, PhD in biomechanics, and have provided biomechanical analysis to elite golfers. I think I'm more than qualified to understand general theories/principles of technique/skill acquisition/movement variability than most, and it's not particularly hard to apply them to skiing. Which is very different to actually offering technical feedback or advice on how someone could improve - which I avoid, that's for someone with actual ski coaching qualifications, which I've never claimed to have.
Similarly I've never claimed to ski. My username is pretty clear that I snowboard. So not really a "gotcha" moment. As I keep saying, show me what I've said is wrong. Ignoring someone's actual points and just going after their credibility just makes it look like you have no real argument. I suppose you have some pretty good coaching credentials to be able to discuss skiing at such a high level though?!
It's become a bit tedious. I'd rather he just messaged me personally to discuss things rather than sidetracking threads. I'm probably equally to blame for bothering to reply, but as I've said it's a nice way to kill time on the trainer.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Weathercam, so you're suggesting that someone can only talk with validity on a subject if they can prove that they're capable of performing at a certain level?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@SnoodyMcFlude, in a word, yes.
I bow to experience / physical practice and not to armchair Mountain Guides and the like, maybe I'm too old school
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 15-02-23 18:03; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Weathercam, oh, well you're wrong.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@SnoodyMcFlude, well one could say it would be like trusting a so-called guide in Japan, would you do that now based on recent revelations, or would you prefer to know that they knew what they were doing?
In fact, as I alluded to in that thread, one of the guides we had was a classic example, and he was a snowboarder too.
Wow have I brought this thread back on subject
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@SnoodyMcFlude,
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you are unlikely to find a single top level athlete who doesn't have a coach or coaches that are not as good as the athlete.
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Yep, and the same applies to the countless world-famous classical musicians who credit their success to teachers who have almost never performed on the concert stage. But I've had this argument before on the forum...
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This isn't even good sport. It's a bit like watching Charlie Chaplin in character going into a boxing ring with a champion, trying to land punches, and convinced he's winning. You could imagine the referee stopping it & the Tramp refusing to accept his authority, still utterly convinced that he'd won.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I was watching the Super Bowl last night - the head coach of the Eagles had a nothing playing career.
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FAQ
