 Poster: A snowHead
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I was out driving slowly with about 60 KM/H on a back road in April, and temperature was about 8c and all was good. The road twisted its way down into a forest, which didn’t see any sun
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Inexperience and a tad too much speed - quite understandable and no doubt you'd read the road better now.
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they had a lot of calls for VW transporter type vehicles with winter tyres overheating to the point of blowing out every summer
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Punctures are about the most common reason for "call outs" for all breakdown services. We could do the conversation about people daft enough to drive round with no spare tyre again, if anybody is bored. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just for the benefit of casual readers. I arrived at Alpe D’Huez yesterday driving my Summer-Wheeled car without any issues at all. The small amount of snow on the village roads was like a typical uk estate road, so drive sensibly and everything’s fine.
I did have snow socks ready just-in-case, but like every drive to the alps for the past 10years* they stayed in the package.
*11 years ago I had to fit chains to a Honda on the road up to La Plagne
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
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I was out driving slowly with about 60 KM/H on a back road in April, and temperature was about 8c and all was good. The road twisted its way down into a forest, which didn’t see any sun
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Inexperience and a tad too much speed - quite understandable and no doubt you'd read the road better now.
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they had a lot of calls for VW transporter type vehicles with winter tyres overheating to the point of blowing out every summer
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Punctures are about the most common reason for "call outs" for all breakdown services. We could do the conversation about people daft enough to drive round with no spare tyre again, if anybody is bored. |
Absolutely road inexperienced at that time, but did competitive racing since age 11, and were racing nationally and internationally, so have ALWAYS respected speed - Point being: In winter/spring you NEVER know what is hiding behind the next bend - If you are not equipped to handle this, then stay at home.
I do find it encouraging that you can give the verdict “a tad to fast”, despite it being in a 80 km/h zone with no ice - Until the situation changed:-) This was so icy, that even 20 km/h on summers would make you crash!
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 29-01-23 19:11; edited 1 time in total
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| jamescollings wrote: |
Just for the benefit of casual readers. I arrived at Alpe D’Huez yesterday driving my Summer-Wheeled car without any issues at all. The small amount of snow on the village roads was like a typical uk estate road, so drive sensibly and everything’s fine.
I did have snow socks ready just-in-case, but like every drive to the alps for the past 10years* they stayed in the package.
*11 years ago I had to fit chains to a Honda on the road up to La Plagne |
And it have worked until now - Maybe next time you end up driving over a cliff because you can’t stop - Nobody knows - Remember that you need to get down again!. I love your hunger for taking chances - Have you ever considered BASE jumping - Just for fun?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@billb, ....'...summers are fine...'....except in CH, where if you have any accident even not your own fault, if it's winter and you are on summers the law will deem that you are at fault.
It's getting increasingly that way in different nations.
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| Chris_n wrote: |
| May or may not be true but I remember being told by a guy who worked for ADAC (German AA) that they had a lot of calls for VW transporter type vehicles with winter tyres overheating to the point of blowing out every summer. He said he had never seen it on a car only the vans and transporters. |
This happened in the US several decades ago when Canadians and US citizens were driving down to places like Arizona for summer in their heavily loaded vans and SUV's with winter tires. Driving at speeds of 70+ MPH. The road temps can easily hit 48C+. Mostly it was older winter tires that were blowing out and causing roll over accidents.
The Canadian Auto and Insurance industries actually put out a PSA about it.
http://www.autoexpert.ca/en-ca/road-safety/beware-winter-tires-in-summer
Winter tire compounds are more pliable and flexible. As road temps increase the tires become softer and squirmy. You will not stop as fast, you will sense a noticeable difference in cornering. Stopping distances increase in both dry and wet conditions and giving you less margin for error.
FWIW, I run out my winter tires in the summer when I plan to replace them in the winter, but I know that they do not handle very well. This summer I ran out my winter Hankook iPikes on my pickup truck. Did I slide on wet pavement? Yes. Did it take longer to stop on wet pavement? Yes, I had to compensate for that and drove much slower when it rained, which is not often here in Central Oregon. I could feel the tires start to lose grip while cornering at higher speeds. People just need to understand the winter tires are meant to be driven in the winter, and if you do choose to keep them on during the summer, you need to drive slightly slower and give yourself more space between vehicles. And make sure to monitor tire pressure.
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| jamescollings wrote: |
Just for the benefit of casual readers. I arrived at Alpe D’Huez yesterday driving my Summer-Wheeled car without any issues at all. The small amount of snow on the village roads was like a typical uk estate road, so drive sensibly and everything’s fine.
I did have snow socks ready just-in-case, but like every drive to the alps for the past 10years* they stayed in the package.
*11 years ago I had to fit chains to a Honda on the road up to La Plagne |
I believe you but it's not a big enough sample. In my 30 odd years of driving I've never needed my seat belt. That is a much bigger sample and it is still not an argument for not wearing a seat belt.
I drove up from GVA to Les Contamines in a hire car with winter tyres about 4 years ago in early March. Normally the drive is easy because Les C is only 1100m and the switchback section is at 600m. But it was snowing heavily and there was snow (and compressed frozen snow aka ice) even on the A40. Off the A40 and up to St Gervais it got a bit spicy as people on summers lost traction, slithered all over the road and precariously fitted chains on the hairpins blocking the road. Higher up I caught up with another vehicle (I was doing about 25 mph and the car in front was making no progress with wheels spinning). I pulled out to overtake and then the car continued to make no forward progress but slid sideways across me out of control rapidly narrowing the gap to the edge of the road. It certainly got the adrenaline going but I avoided him.
It's not really acceptable to say "ah it will probably be alright". The same is true overtaking on a blind bend but it doesn't make it responsible.
BTW - I'm not accusing you of being irresponsible - you had the socks. But I would say that on that drive from GVA, the socks would have been ex-socks by the time you'd got to resort. They aren't really a substitute for chains. Or winters.
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In my 30 odd years of driving I've never needed my seat belt
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I made the point a while ago, when people had been saying they'd never need chains, that in many years of sailing I've never needed my life jacket. And in many situations I don't even wear it, though I always have it grabbable.
It's a fine judgement call sometimes when to put chains on. Personally I did it at the first sign of loss of traction (because it's when you're in a situation like that described by @jedster that you will suddenly need all the traction you can get). Same as judgement call on wearing a life-jacket. But to suggest that because you've been lucky so far (or clever enough not to fall overboard) you don't need one, is foolhardy. In the 15 winters I drove a winter-tyred car in the Alps I needed chains a few times. One time I'd jettisoned them to make more room for loads of kids boots, skis and sledges. Thankfully I only had to walk a few hundred yards up the steep hairpin bend to my apartment to get them, then slog back down through the blizzard and put them on.  I learnt my lesson.
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When I set off for the Alps last Friday (20th Jan) I’d ‘winterised’ my car more out of hope for some snow to drive in than with an expectation I’d actually need it. There was little snow in the area I was going to and it was a fairly low altitude area.
So off I went, down to Folkestone, through to Calais and over to Dunkirk. By the time I got into Belgium it was snowing slightly, by Brussels it was snowing heavily. I then realised the wisdom of all season tyres, in fact by the time I got to Spa Francorchamps I was already planning my chain fitting strategy! On some of the big hills on the motorway through the Belgian/German forests I was just about the only one getting up them, with cars and lorries strewn all over the place. I only made it by giving it some welly and weaving in and out of stranded vehicles. At one point I drove for miles and miles on my own in about 4 or 5 inches of fresh snow. In the end I think I must have driven about 400 of the 800 miles in snowy conditions with most of it where there was a decent amount of snow on the road.
The Goodyear Vector tyres were amazing, the difference is like night and day. In the resort (where it snowed most days) I didn’t notice anything different between where I could go and where people with full winter tyres could go. In fact I saw some people getting stuck with full winters where I had just got up on the all seasons. My tyres were brand new though. I had them on my last car and never got the chance to use them in the snow but they were great all year round and didn’t appear to wear much more than summer tyres. Even though we mostly get boring, mild winters in the UK I think I’ll be paying a bit more and keeping the all seasons.
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| japes1275 wrote: |
When I set off for the Alps last Friday (20th Jan) I’d ‘winterised’ my car more out of hope for some snow to drive in than with an expectation I’d actually need it. There was little snow in the area I was going to and it was a fairly low altitude area.
So off I went, down to Folkestone, through to Calais and over to Dunkirk. By the time I got into Belgium it was snowing slightly, by Brussels it was snowing heavily. I then realised the wisdom of all season tyres, in fact by the time I got to Spa Francorchamps I was already planning my chain fitting strategy! On some of the big hills on the motorway through the Belgian/German forests I was just about the only one getting up them, with cars and lorries strewn all over the place. I only made it by giving it some welly and weaving in and out of stranded vehicles. At one point I drove for miles and miles on my own in about 4 or 5 inches of fresh snow. In the end I think I must have driven about 400 of the 800 miles in snowy conditions with most of it where there was a decent amount of snow on the road.
The Goodyear Vector tyres were amazing, the difference is like night and day. In the resort (where it snowed most days) I didn’t notice anything different between where I could go and where people with full winter tyres could go. In fact I saw some people getting stuck with full winters where I had just got up on the all seasons. My tyres were brand new though. I had them on my last car and never got the chance to use them in the snow but they were great all year round and didn’t appear to wear much more than summer tyres. Even though we mostly get boring, mild winters in the UK I think I’ll be paying a bit more and keeping the all seasons. |
What type of car were you driving? I've had the same experience with 4Matic AWD and Michelin Cross Climate 2. This is my second set and can also notice the difference in wet London winter the car will do 9 out of 12 weeks with the other 3 weeks in France. I have an expensive set of unused Thule Easy Fit chains in the boot (and a life jacket with whistle and light) just in case.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| japes1275 wrote: |
| The Goodyear Vector tyres were amazing, the difference is like night and day. Even though we mostly get boring, mild winters in the UK I think I’ll be paying a bit more and keeping the all seasons. |
The current Generation 3 of the Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons have an extremely good wear profile. The German Auto Bild tyre test predicted that they would cover around 39,000 miles, more than most of the competition whilst still being near the top of the tree in all performance characteristics. In contrast, the more expensive Michelin CC2s were only predicted to last 27,000 miles. That's a pretty significant difference and makes the Goodyears very good value on a cost per mile basis.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Tyres aren't that expensive. I'm not bothered if my Michelin Cross Climates need replacing a bit sooner than some other tyres might. Compared, for example, to my Council Tax or gas bill, the marginal cost is trivial.
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There's good reason why these all season tyres have come to this performance level.
Traditional winter/cold/snow type tyres made use of taller more flexible tread blocks and supplimented by small cuts (sipes-ish) altogether facilitated by soft compounds that were optimised to help most in lowered temperatures. These try to drive with the traction blocks only levering in a straight line along the vehicle direction, primarily by flexing and return of these cut blocks come into and out of the contact patch area of the tyre as it rolls along the surface.
These, all season, substantially led by the Michelin CC, completely shifted the thinking and subsequent design sphere in approach to that same problem. They all effectively evolve towards that directional arrow in the tread pattern. This in drive traction puts that arrow into the snow the same as climbing in a V with skis, one conflicted with the other, they try to push that now wedge of snow lent against the tread, backwards in shear along the ground. Snow etc is substantially resistant to this action with the vehicle mass more easily moved rather than that vee of snow pushing along the surface. There are of course limits, but clearly they are located a little above that which the vehicle generally needs to move it.
The opposite is worked when braking. Collecting snow with the tyre to try and push it along the surface is the most effect way of braking a vehicle (and serious limitation in ABS system performance. It keeps rolling over this snow pile every time it releases the brake) with the "wedge" in opposite traction to acceleration, it now does an effective job of keeping the snow engaged with the tire. Also less likely to bring on ABS anyway as the tyre now withstands more torque applied to effectively slow the vehicle without early ABS intervention.
It's the above method that mostly removes the need for such soft compounds as used in traditional approach, in effect you get a virtually "summer" type tyre (if you want to label them as such) with attendant performance in that type, along with this winter performance. Its very clever thinking and heads towrads tyre utopia for a very wide operating conditions range.
The Michelin, more extreme in it's principle of design, the goodyear a little more of a mix/hedge perhaps in pure design idealism, would be how I'd look at them.
They are a very viable option to many as a single purchase. People stuck with the view that you can only do this with a very soft compound are not in possession of technical details to judge this CC led initiative I feel.
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You know it makes sense.
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@ski3, do you think traditional winters will take on the same approach or will they simply become obsolete, given the “all year” convenience and evolving performance of the latest generation of all-seasons?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@ski3,
Does that only apply to snow? For ice I'd have thought that short of studded tires, the key is the compound and the sipes to allow movement and hence heat generation?
Mostly the winter driving I do (and I do quite a lot of it - was driving in -25C yesterday!) is not on snow as such, but rather either slush, compact snow, snow that is so compact it is ice, or some mixture of those.
For me coming across loose/deep snow is less common and mostly away from the main roads which are ploughed. For these situations you probably aren't going to make it in a car no matter what tires/chains you have - having ground clearance, a locking-diff, and low range helps a lot here!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| @ski3, do you think traditional winters will take on the same approach or will they simply become obsolete, given the “all year” convenience and evolving performance of the latest generation of all-seasons? |
They seem to be moving that way in WRC (world rally championship) for their snow tyres, but they also have the option to add studs, perhaps along one side for snow into ice conditions.
I'd guess they must be testing this type of design to see what it gives them.
Its in the area of moving to studs as optimal as they do in Scandinavian countries for part of the year. It's located into marginal gains area as i'd view it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stuarth wrote: |
@ski3,
Does that only apply to snow? For ice I'd have thought that short of studded tires, the key is the compound and the sipes to allow movement and hence heat generation?
Mostly the winter driving I do (and I do quite a lot of it - was driving in -25C yesterday!) is not on snow as such, but rather either slush, compact snow, snow that is so compact it is ice, or some mixture of those.
For me coming across loose/deep snow is less common and mostly away from the main roads which are ploughed. For these situations you probably aren't going to make it in a car no matter what tires/chains you have - having ground clearance, a locking-diff, and low range helps a lot here! |
It's certainly getting outside the remit of a rubber tyre surface as you move substantially into ice. Most straight rubber tyres, whatever the flexibility, will struggle in that arena.
To question though the tyres getting hotter, they don't really do that as their method, it's essentially staying flexible at lower temperature that facilitates the steering ability that helps most with control.
For that (to understand it fully) we'd need to get into detail of just why and how a tyre does steer a vehicle to then see why different approaches work.
There doesn't seem to be a taste on here to involve that level of detail though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Adding to the Michelin CC and others properties, it looks to me that they benefit considerably by trying to keep slip to a minimum (spinning that wedge away with uncontained spin) seems to be the last thing you'd want.
This is the principal reason I feel that traction control etc is beneficial to be used (left switched on) to best let the torque be contained within the parameters that the tyre will accept.
Thats a different scenario to a vehicle that's stuck and immovable by normal driving.
It seems very contentious on here, ultimately limiting intelligent/interesting debate though. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ski3,
Agree. My truck is no Subaru on the traction front, but you can tell that on an icy road (very icy saturday as a cold snap came in after some warmer weather and snow) that traction control is doing something useful
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Yep that's difficult I can see and we don't ordinarily encounter that in UK Europe alps normally.
Some living up steep unploughed roads have no option even here though.
Scandinavia areas dedicated to switching do usually run complete winter set with studs as they all operate the same for that period, running on compacted unploughed as I understand it.
Anecdotal support, friend toured Scandinavia in winter in front wheel drive car, bought locally specified fully snow orientated tyre without studs, although generally OK he was surprised to find that he was just a menace to all the others that were using studs. The studs just driving around at normal speeds and frustration built with his relative caution.
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| @ski3, do you think traditional winters will take on the same approach or will they simply become obsolete, given the “all year” convenience and evolving performance of the latest generation of all-seasons? |
Maybe - but more likely as is currently occurring, snow tire sales will continue to decline. Largely due to recent innovations in tread design and compounding.
In the tire engineering world, it's referred to as the "magic triangle", tread wear, rolling resistance and grip. Those 3 items in a lot of ways are juxtaposed to one another. The better the grip, the less rolling resistance as more friction is the result of better grip. Better tread wear, generally requires a harder rubber compound to get better wear, which means less grip. All that means is the magic triangle requires compromise in one of the 3. So engineers are always playing with those 3 attributes depending on what type of tire they are designing.
However, as ski3 mentioned, new tread pattern designs have helped with the magic triangle to a certain degree. Siping is one component where new siping tech has improved road handling on dry roads. Old tread siping from 20 years ago, was just add more sipes in the tread blocks. That made the tires squishy and not handle so well in dry conditions. But gave more biting traction in snow and ice. Now, they have what are referred to as 3-D siping, which allows interlocking of sipes and better dry weather handling, while also aiding in better snow traction.
The other breakthroughs are in compounding. Silica had a great property of making tires stay pliable at lower temps, but also helps with tire wear by providing better tire wear in warmer operating temps. and better wet weather stopping than w/o silica. All that means is that the gap between winter tires and a 3 season tire has shrunk.
All weather tires like the Michelin Cross Climate, Vredestein Quatrac 5/Pro, the Goodyear Vectra, the Toyo Celsius and the Bridgestone Weatherpeak offer a good compromise between and all season and a winter tire. They don't quite close the gap but the gap in performance continues to shrink.
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@Toadman,
Apparently nuts are the magic ingredient in my winter tires! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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As someone who runs studs, yes, they do provide a slight advantage on ice. Certainly in lateral motion when cornering, and start/stopping. But not as much as people might imagine. You will still find your self sliding if you brake hard, or spinning when you accelerate hard. My wife's AWD SUV has non studded Vredestein Wintrac Pros and they do fine in compact snow and ice, and only struggle in solid ice conditions like I experienced on my way to the office this morning!
You have a 50/50 split here in the PNW with studded and non-studded winter tires.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Yes 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Tyres aren't that expensive. I'm not bothered if my Michelin Cross Climates need replacing a bit sooner than some other tyres might. Compared, for example, to my Council Tax or gas bill, the marginal cost is trivial. |
Yeah but you're in the affluent retired section of society; it's hardly the majority skiing demographic  You've previously declared yourself to have retired early on a good pension and so presumably have no other significant expenses other than house utilities so of course you don't care.
But what if you're a lifestyle seasonaire on €150/week odd and your most expensive possession is your £3k car? A £600 set of rubber that wears out 30% quicker than a cheaper but equivalent (better, actually, in most tests) competitor would certainly bother me and, I suspect, the vast majority of the tyre buying public.
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You know it makes sense.
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Poppycock, @Raceplate. My 4 Michelin Cross Climate tyres cost £385, fitted (if your poverty stricken seasonaire is paying £600 he's an idiot). They don't wear out 30% quicker, but even if they did, that cost me £130 over 3 or 4 years. Your poor lifestyle seasonaire (who surely does nowhere near such a high mileage as a bloated plutocrat rich old lady in the SE of England) would only have to forgo a couple of beers a month to make up the difference.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| Poppycock, @Raceplate. My 4 Michelin Cross Climate tyres cost £385, fitted (if your poverty stricken seasonaire is paying £600 he's an idiot). |
Tyre costs depend on size. Your basic Skoda Fabia will use a basic and cheap size because it's, er, a Skoda Fabia. Most lifestyle seasonaires will at least try to have some kind of AWD vehicle, usually an ancient 4motion VW, Audi quattro or a Subaru AWD. They won't run on boggo 14" or 15" wheels with a high and cheap tyre profile that your Fabia does. The average cost of a CC2 on a 17"+ wheel is easily north of £150/wheel and if you don't believe me look for yourself. https://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-model/michelin-crossclimate-2
| pam w wrote: |
| They don't wear out 30% quicker |
Really? Are you qualified to make that statement ? Maybe you should research the literature from people that almost certainly are qualified to make judgements on tyre wear before declaring your definitive opinion? https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Auto-Bild-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| Poppycock, @Raceplate. My 4 Michelin Cross Climate tyres cost £385, fitted (if your poverty stricken seasonaire is paying £600 he's an idiot). |
Tyre costs depend on size. Your basic Skoda Fabia will use a basic and cheap size because it's, er, a Skoda Fabia. Most lifestyle seasonaires will at least try to have some kind of AWD vehicle, usually an ancient 4motion VW, Audi quattro or a Subaru AWD. They won't run on boggo 14" or 15" wheels with a high and cheap tyre profile that your Fabia does. The average cost of a CC2 on a 17"+ wheel is easily north of £150/wheel and if you don't believe me look for yourself. https://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-model/michelin-crossclimate-2
| pam w wrote: |
| They don't wear out 30% quicker |
Really? Are you qualified to make that statement ? Maybe you should research the literature from people that almost certainly are qualified to make judgements on tyre wear before declaring your definitive opinion? https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Auto-Bild-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm |
Not picking any sides here, but this is from you link about the CC’s:
The results of this wear test certainly doesn't align with previous tests. If true, it's a big shake up we've not seen before, but there's always a chance it might be specific to this size, or it might be an issue with how the wear tests was measured.
New for 2022 is the abrasion tests, which is measured by weighing the tyre before and after the wear test and seeing how much weight was lost. This doesn't track with wear because some tyres have more void ratio in the tread pattern, and some tyres have narrower profiles overall, both meaning less material in the tyre.
In this test, the Michelin did lose the least amount of weight, which is the best result for the environment. This also shows the Michelin compound is still performing well.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 31-01-23 0:09; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| DanishRider wrote: |
Not picking any sides here, but this is from you link about the CC’s:
The results of this wear test certainly doesn't align with previous tests. If true, it's a big shake up we've not seen before, but there's always a chance it might be specific to this size, or it might be an issue with how the wear tests was measured. |
Yes I'm well aware of that. I'm also aware that neither product has been around long enough to have a significantly large enough real world database to make a definitive judgement.
But I am interested in your, "results of this wear test certainly doesn't align with previous tests" statement because tyre wear forecasts in general are very rare, presumably because the testers don't want to be sued for negative publicity.
Perhaps you'd be good enough to share the data that says the opposite for CC2s?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@DanishRider, sorry, I should qualify the above. I know the "certainly doesn't align with previous tests" bit is from tyre reviews but the same thing applies. He's never predicted tyre wear in his tests so what's his statement based on? There are no other wear predictors that I've seen. I think he's just trying to cover his professional credibility because his test said the CC2 was by far the best all-season tyre and a fair proportion of other tests haven't. For sure, it's still a good tyre but some tests have it as a mid best option, nowhere near the top.
The next best in most tests is the Hankook Kinergy 4S2 which is cheaper than both the GY Vector 4S and the CC2 but has an even lower wear prediction which completely negates its price. The other excellent option is the (new) Vredestein Quattrac but it's not available in bigger, lower profile sizes so not a fat lot of use for the majority of AWD Alps commuters.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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OK the pedand in me thinks the correct grammer should be "still too many drivers tired without winter"
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@johnE, how's the wine consumption going?
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| Raceplate wrote: |
@DanishRider, sorry, I should qualify the above. I know the "certainly doesn't align with previous tests" bit is from tyre reviews but the same thing applies. He's never predicted tyre wear in his tests so what's his statement based on? There are no other wear predictors that I've seen. I think he's just trying to cover his professional credibility because his test said the CC2 was by far the best all-season tyre and a fair proportion of other tests haven't. For sure, it's still a good tyre but some tests have it as a mid best option, nowhere near the top.
The next best in most tests is the Hankook Kinergy 4S2 which is cheaper than both the GY Vector 4S and the CC2 but has an even lower wear prediction which completely negates its price. The other excellent option is the (new) Vredestein Quattrac but it's not available in bigger, lower profile sizes so not a fat lot of use for the majority of AWD Alps commuters. |
Wife actually had the Vectors on her old car (just bought new one a month ago with the CC on), and she had them for three years, driving around 25000 km on them with no noticeable wear - If the CC’s perform at roughly that level, I am more than happy. Ask me again in three years
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
@DanishRider, sorry, I should qualify the above. I know the "certainly doesn't align with previous tests" bit is from tyre reviews but the same thing applies. He's never predicted tyre wear in his tests so what's his statement based on? There are no other wear predictors that I've seen. I think he's just trying to cover his professional credibility because his test said the CC2 was by far the best all-season tyre and a fair proportion of other tests haven't. For sure, it's still a good tyre but some tests have it as a mid best option, nowhere near the top.
The next best in most tests is the Hankook Kinergy 4S2 which is cheaper than both the GY Vector 4S and the CC2 but has an even lower wear prediction which completely negates its price. The other excellent option is the (new) Vredestein Quattrac but it's not available in bigger, lower profile sizes so not a fat lot of use for the majority of AWD Alps commuters. |
I should also add here, that I have the Hankook winter i*cept 3 on my own performance car - Maybe the best I have had in snow yet, but the fuel consumption and thread wear… Don’t get me started ! I spend more than 15% more fuel compared to my Bridgestone summers!
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Bear in mind that most tyre reviews are very subjective and inconsistent. Because for most, there’s a human driving the test vehicle, not a robot or a rig. If a rig is used then there’s always the converse issue that it may not represent well how the car is actually driven in reality. Reviews mostly give the tyres a subjective score and then differentiates over a very narrow range e.g. scores on a scale to 100 but most of the test results come out at 89 to 95 and the top five score within an even narrower band. Prompting you to wonder if an ordinary driver can even detect the differences. And how do they test mileage? Do they actually run the tyre on a car for 30,000 miles over exactly the same public roads in exactly the same conditions with exactly the same driver? And many tests simply omit parameters that are hard to test but which are of significance: for example resistance to aquaplaning when turning - lots of winter accidents involve coming off the road in the wet on a bend. The few that do test this on a rig often highlight significant weaknesses on some popular products in conditions the average driver is very likely to encounter, but which you’ll never see mentioned in many reviews.
This doesn’t invalidate tests a such: it’s better to do something than nothing. And even if they are subjective, the drivers are often experienced in teasing out the differences between products. But it does explain why, when I worked in the tyre industry, we were often puzzled by the conclusions of tyre tests, compared to what our view of the products was.
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FAQ
