 Poster: A snowHead
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I believe in America they are very proactive in policing the slopes and it is not uncommon for ski pass's to be confiscated from unsafe skier or boarders.
My wife and I often leave the slope when it gets too busy, simply because we often surrounded by young fit people who think they are indestructible and demonstrate no regard for other slope users.
I know of very inexperienced skier who has clocked 72 MPH !! on his ski app !!
Alcohol is significant factor especially when people skiing off the mountain at the end of the day and have few drinks on the way down.
Sorry for sounding like an old fart but I have to admit to transgressing all the above at sometime and now have a knackerd right knee that limits my skiing
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| David B wrote: |
I believe in America they are very proactive in policing the slopes and it is not uncommon for ski pass's to be confiscated from unsafe skier or boarders.
My wife and I often leave the slope when it gets too busy, simply because we often surrounded by young fit people who think they are indestructible and demonstrate no regard for other slope users.
I know of very inexperienced skier who has clocked 72 MPH !! on his ski app !!
Alcohol is significant factor especially when people skiing off the mountain at the end of the day and have few drinks on the way down.
Sorry for sounding like an old fart but I have to admit to transgressing all the above at sometime and now have a knackerd right knee that limits my skiing |
Easily done isn’t it?
Make an early-ish start skiing each day on part empty slopes, gracefully bowing out at hotel cakes time, leaving the late afternoon slopes to the drunk/coked up ‘legends’.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A tragic event. Quite unbearable for all concerned.
I recall learning those rules (not formalised as such) when I learn to ski but I am not sure they even teach FIS rules or safety much in ski school (as it most things now, it being boring). No matter this, and who should look uphill before they start, I've learnt that kids will not always remember to so and to give them a wide berth. Also slowing down where is says "Slow" is not the biggest ask of people in the world.
The worst places for agressive skiing I have seen in my very small sample of lcoations is in France and Austria, whilst at the other end was Italy and Norway. I think those speed measuring apps do have something to do with it, as does less concern for others and responsibility for ones actions, but when you mix bullet proof youth, unbounded confidence and pontentially dangerous activities, this can result anywhere.
I have taken to ski upslope of our youngest rather than have her follow me, not skiing in her tracks but directly above shadowing her turns so screening her a bit more from someone hooning down, at least they might see me better than a smaller figure.
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| Dr. Will wrote: |
| frejul wrote: |
One French article I've seen suggests this happened in the area in front of the Blanchot restaurant.
This is pretty much the widest, most open area on the entire Serpentine piste.
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I think sometimes the widest areas can be the most dangerous as they encourage the largest speed differences between the fast carvers and beginners- just a catched edge or misjudgement could lead to serious injury. Whereas nobody is going to be going to quickly down a crowded narrow icy path. |
I agree and this particular section has another piste joining and a chair lift entrance. It’s also undulating so it can take people by surprise. I don’t like Serpentine - there have been a number of fatalities on it ( two in one season four or five years ago) and I think that it needs to be remodelled to slow people down/make more separate routes or similar. This may not have helped in this particular tragic case, but I do think that it needs some thought by the ski lift company.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This is an appalling, shocking story. Desperately sad.
I am very intolerant of people skiing too fast and close to other skiers. I’m definitely not someone who feels “stuff happens - just get on with it”.
I’m resisting getting on my high horse at this point until we know more about what happened. The bare facts that we do know obviously merit the manslaughter INVESTIGATION.
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From memory those two fatalities on Serpentine a few years ago were also collisions. Coming out of that half pipe onto Serpentine is dangerous.
Absolutely horrible incident.
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| ster wrote: |
I have taken to ski upslope of our youngest rather than have her follow me, not skiing in her tracks but directly above shadowing her turns so screening her a bit more from someone hooning down, at least they might see me better than a smaller figure. |
I don't think screening works unless you are uncomfortably close to the screenee or you are straightline skiing (like maybe on a catrack). It may in fact increase the hazard as the reckless passer is intent on getting by you and may not even see or recognise the screenee until it is too late.
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| David B wrote: |
I believe in America they are very proactive in policing the slopes and it is not uncommon for ski pass's to be confiscated from unsafe skier or boarders.
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Only in Vail resorts.
Though many resorts do post ski patrol at busy intersections late in the day to make a visual impression for all to slow down on their "last run".
Many here complain about the high ticket cost in North America. I frequently see ski patrols when skiing in US/Canada. But I don't often see pisteurs when skiing in the Alps. That large number of ski patroller is part of that cost.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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As parent to two boys this has really put my heart in my mouth, coming so soon after the Tamworth snow dome tragedy. I cannot imagine the heartbreak for these families. My eldest is 12 and happy on blues and easy reds, my 4 yr old about to ski for the first time this Feb. do any experienced skiers have any tips to avoid or minimise risk of injuries - what advice can I give my 12 yr old son on the slopes to keep safe…as a parent are there any steps we can take?
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I ski with my daughters 1 almost 6 the other almost 8. My experience the folks blasting by don't feel they're doing anything wrong. It wrong to say its just men. 1 that stands out in my mind is an older women who just skied off at new year. Left my daughter in a tangled mess after skiing over her skis. she looked back as well
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jedster wrote: |
This is an appalling, shocking story. Desperately sad.
I am very intolerant of people skiing too fast and close to other skiers. I’m definitely not someone who feels “stuff happens - just get on with it”.
I’m resisting getting on my high horse at this point until we know more about what happened. The bare facts that we do know obviously merit the manslaughter INVESTIGATION. |
I’m no expert on French law, however, I suspect in the case of a slope fatality involving another skier, it’s standard practice to open a manslaughter investigation. As many have said, anything else is pure speculation.
From personal experience, on quieter weeks, the skiers I see who are predominantly local, ski with far greater control and ability. When the 1-2 week a year skiers arrive is when the incidents/accidents occur with a lot of fairly incompetent skiers on the slopes skiing with limited technique and way too fast for their ability.
Anecdotally, a few weeks ago, Mrs C and I were both nearly taken out by a 7/8 year old lad, straight lining with skis skittering all over the place. It was only a matter of time before he caught an edge, cartwheeled over and narrowly missed us both, sliding for a good 10 metres. His father, way behind, got a piece of my mind about speed and control (we first checked the lad was not hurt), in German. He clearly didn’t understand and didn’t even muster an apology or acknowledgment. At the very least that could have been broken leg territory for either of us  Fortunately no one was hurt.
As for long ski snakes with an instructor and 8-10 young skiers in a lesson, all too often one encounters piste wide trains on wide red runs where the instructor doesn’t check uphill before leading his group across the slope. And when a youngster falls over? Leave the remainder of the group standing around, often mid-slope, whilst going to pick up the fallen skier. Throw in out of their depth other skiers and, sadly, it becomes a toxic mix.
Unfortunately, there isn’t anything like enough emphasis on hill craft/mountain rules these days. If adults don’t follow them, then one can hardly expect children to either.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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RookieS: yes.
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Equipment: Get a good helmet and back protector for them all. We used POC VPD vests - that became very important in one incident.
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Awareness: youngsters have low situational awareness and low accumulated experience of risk. We emphasised ‘never start without looking behind and around you’. It took time for them to develop good situational awareness but they got it.
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Skills: We taught our young ones to do tight turns, in a line, not veer all over the place. And to use the side of the piste a lot. And to be able to scrub off speed instantly. Don’t worry about stopping and waiting if you feel unsure about what’s happening.
4
Attitude: skiing is about skill, not speed. We used role models of this, people that they really respected. And we emphasised that injury stops you from skiing and might be life changing.
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Unlike cars which have become faster but safer skiers remain almost as vulnerable in a collision now as 50 years ago. Meanwhile snowmaking, piste grooming and earth moving have all encouraged higher speed skiing and shorter wider skis make everyone faster. More enforcement is probably only a partial answer.
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You know it makes sense.
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It's like cycling. A properly-kitted out child who has been taught the rules and is in good control of their bike will be in less danger, especially when cycling with watchful parents. But there is still a significant risk. The only sensible thing is to decide whether you are prepared to take that inescapable risk, and get on with it without pointless "worrying". The difference between being vigilant and being paranoid.
If you can't cope with that risk you shouldn't go skiing.
And, if the worst happens and your child is injured, it doesn't mean you were wrong.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| valais2 wrote: |
RookieS: yes.
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Equipment: Get a good helmet and back protector for them all. We used POC VPD vests - that became very important in one incident.
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Awareness: youngsters have low situational awareness and low accumulated experience of risk. We emphasised ‘never start without looking behind and around you’. It took time for them to develop good situational awareness but they got it.
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Skills: We taught our young ones to do tight turns, in a line, not veer all over the place. And to use the side of the piste a lot. And to be able to scrub off speed instantly. Don’t worry about stopping and waiting if you feel unsure about what’s happening.
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Attitude: skiing is about skill, not speed. We used role models of this, people that they really respected. And we emphasised that injury stops you from skiing and might be life changing. |
Thank you, much appreciated - am rereading your old post about back protectors and off to order the POC air vest.
I didn’t really know much about these.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Awful story.
Many sports have an element of risk - most of us rationalise this against the health benefits of being fit.
Unlike something like cycling, piste skiing means you are almost always in close proximity to other participants - so you need to be competent and ski within your abilities.
As a kid, I was taught a number of things - some self preservation, some obvious, some to protect others, but there is one that trumps all others -
If you are the uphill skier, you are responsible for steering clear of anyone below.
There is no argument that "a bunch of learners changed direction" because.......duh.....that happens.
I think that - as you get more experienced - you try not to put yourself in positions where you may be vulnerable, but I doubt I could get through a week in an Alpine resort without having a "robust chat" with some fool after witnessing dangerous behaviour.
Having said that, when I am out cycling there are times I have to have similar chats with car drivers, so the stupid factor is not confined to skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
I see in other posts you are also splitting hairs about the FIS rules, . |
I've not split anything. I was clearly and obviously asking for another opinion regarding finer points.
I've cut you some slack as I've assumed that English isn't your first language due to your clumsy use of it.
Let's wind our necks in and rather than sling mud, respect the spirit in which the OP opened this post. |
As I said in my post, the the FIS rules are not designed to apportion blame and all of rules apply all of the time. The "finer points" you allude to only arise when an attempt is made to apportion blame based on a singular rule. The scenario you outline would not have led to increased risk if all skiers involved followed all the rules.
I always appreciate anyone willing to cut me some slack, so thanks for that. I cannot for the life of me understand what on earth led to your assumption, but it did make me laugh which is always a good thing.
I agree that we should respect the spirit in which the OP opened this post, and it might be better to debate these points elsewhere. I would posit that that especially applies to discussion of the finer points of the FIS rules. And the use of ski tracking apps.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Rookiescot wrote: |
| valais2 wrote: |
RookieS: yes.
1
Equipment: Get a good helmet and back protector for them all. We used POC VPD vests - that became very important in one incident.
2
Awareness: youngsters have low situational awareness and low accumulated experience of risk. We emphasised ‘never start without looking behind and around you’. It took time for them to develop good situational awareness but they got it.
3
Skills: We taught our young ones to do tight turns, in a line, not veer all over the place. And to use the side of the piste a lot. And to be able to scrub off speed instantly. Don’t worry about stopping and waiting if you feel unsure about what’s happening.
4
Attitude: skiing is about skill, not speed. We used role models of this, people that they really respected. And we emphasised that injury stops you from skiing and might be life changing. |
Thank you, much appreciated - am rereading your old post about back protectors and off to order the POC air vest.
I didn’t really know much about these. |
Really good advice from valais2 as always.
I would add that is is a good idea to leave a 1-2 meter gap between your turns and the edge of the piste when possible. This gives room for the morons who either misjudge an overtake or are skiing too fast for their abilities to at least have an exit option. And also good to train yourself and the kids to have a good look uphill for said morons before stopping at the edge of the pistes. When teaching a class, if we are stopped at the side of the piste I get the class to leave 1 meter or so between where they stand and the edge of the piste, this 1m is used by the morons (even on empty pistes) more often than you might imagine.
Once you are all fully competent, keep a reasonable speed on cat-tracks. Of course not so much that you are not fully in control, but there is less risk if you are as fast or faster than the majority of traffic.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Whilst the uphill skier rule should be sacrosanct, in theory at least, sometimes in practice it just doesn't work out that way.
Last Friday we were out piste skiing up the hill going to lunch, we usually avoid skiing on a Friday especially in the afternoon, as for most it's their last day, and in the afternoon "they" are no longer in ski school and it's kinda crazy with what seems the worst protagonists 20 somethings from UCPCA letting rip.
We were simply skiing down a chemin to get to the piste from the chair, no need for turns as the gradient was not too bad, @KenX, who is very experienced was just in front of me and we're carefully avoiding an obvious UCPCA group and then the skier in front of KenX decides to throw a 360 in, and without the necessary skills fecks it up nearly taking Ken out.
There is also the occasion which I have on Youtube of a skier out of control skiing back up the hill crashing into me, the purists would say that both Ken and I should have not been there, but sometimes it simply does not work out that way.
It's the reason why I very rarely ski on the piste in the busy periods as I just do not enjoy it and last Friday even though it was very quiet I saw at least four, what I would call wipe-outs, where a skier ended up losing it at speed, with a ski left back up the hill, where fortunately it released or is that a separate issue with too loose a bindings (set up at the beginning of the week?) and hence releasing as they ski harder and faster come the end of the week, and they then hurtling down the piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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One other factor worth considering is that the development of skis towards being shorter and wider over the years does seem to have taken away straight line stability when not on edge, meaning when skiers are skiing fast beyond their ability they are either wobbling in a straight line or "carving" on edge across the entire piste...
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| rachelharrisonsmith wrote: |
| Dr. Will wrote: |
| frejul wrote: |
One French article I've seen suggests this happened in the area in front of the Blanchot restaurant.
This is pretty much the widest, most open area on the entire Serpentine piste.
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I think sometimes the widest areas can be the most dangerous as they encourage the largest speed differences between the fast carvers and beginners- just a catched edge or misjudgement could lead to serious injury. Whereas nobody is going to be going to quickly down a crowded narrow icy path. |
I agree and this particular section has another piste joining and a chair lift entrance. It’s also undulating so it can take people by surprise. I don’t like Serpentine - there have been a number of fatalities on it ( two in one season four or five years ago) and I think that it needs to be remodelled to slow people down/make more separate routes or similar. This may not have helped in this particular tragic case, but I do think that it needs some thought by the ski lift company. |
Yes - you're right - there are some undulations on the right hand side (facing downhill) and there a few videos on youtube of people flying over those undulations - heading towards the Blanchot. Don't want to post links - as I don't want to inadvertantly associate the folks in the videos with this particular incident.
Pistes do join in this area - but they join to create a vast wide open piste. The undulations on that side (combined with excessive speed) seem like the most plausible reasons for loss of control - and approaching a group lesson without having seen them a long way off.
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Worth pointing out that no one in front can ever do anything ‘unexpected’. Expect the unexpected. Also worth mentioning that over the years my family have been hit twice. My 16 year old daughter at the time by a roughly 16 year old French girl snowboarder, and my wife by a teenage French or Swiss French skier in Wengen. Losing control happens in skiing, especially when young. Admittedly skiing too fast for your ability can happen at any age. How does anyone ever go any faster? Boundaries are pushed it’s the essence of the sport, but judgement should be used. Sadly people of all sorts will get it wrong sometimes. We all need to ski a little defensively as well as carefully.
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| Peter S wrote: |
| Unlike cars which have become faster but safer skiers remain almost as vulnerable in a collision now as 50 years ago. Meanwhile snowmaking, piste grooming and earth moving have all encouraged higher speed skiing and shorter wider skis make everyone faster. More enforcement is probably only a partial answer. |
This is very relevant.
Other comparisons, I cycled on a velodrome for the first time recently and the similarities with skiing a busy piste were startling, the proximity, trust in others and speed that mistakes turn into pile-ups. But that is a regulated environment so felt much safer than a 4pm descent to an apres ski bar!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The most common collisions I have seen have not been from one skier having excessive speed, but from two similar speed skiers coming together: both can see that the piste below them is 'clear', so there is no-one they have to avoid, but neither have sufficient peripheral vision to realise that there is someone close by! Can often happen within groups skiing together. Also where pistes meet - particularly at a shallow angle when skiers on both pistes may not even realise there is a junction. Junctions are always signposted at the top, but at the foot there are at best 'SLOW' banners and often no indication at all. There is an argument for having some form of 'Junction ahead' sign on the sides that will merge, so that skiers can look up / slow down / move away from that side of the piste.
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| Rookiescot wrote: |
| As parent to two boys this has really put my heart in my mouth, coming so soon after the Tamworth snow dome tragedy. I cannot imagine the heartbreak for these families. My eldest is 12 and happy on blues and easy reds, my 4 yr old about to ski for the first time this Feb. do any experienced skiers have any tips to avoid or minimise risk of injuries - what advice can I give my 12 yr old son on the slopes to keep safe…as a parent are there any steps we can take? |
The majority of incidents happen after 3pm. Does vary slightly by time of year (basically the last 1 - 1:30 hr of lift opening), but a combination of tired legs, alcohol before last run down, people who haven't left enough time to get back over link lifts between areas so rushing and a concentration of skiers onto 'home' runs back into resorts.
An awful lot of people underestimate the risks they are taking;
Certain I have done it; One of the reasons for getting far more seriously into off piste skiing is for the adrenaline rush/opportunity to push myself (and then in general use the pistes to relax while getting between places far more calmly as well as a break from hard skiing) where most of the risk is too myself, not other people.
I suspect there are a combination of factors in why it has gotten worse (if indeed it has; some may also be more publicity to incidents):
Better skis - people feel in control at higher speeds (while far less likely to fall, I expect the ability to avoid collisions isn't as improved as we think)
Helmets - As with cycling people ascribe massive levels of protection to them; They are great for coping with messing up on a race course and going head first (instead of pole first) into a gate or pushing a thin tree branch out of the way off piste. They are almost useless if you ski into another skier (Seen stats that suggested a reduction in head injuries proportional to all injuries, but an increase overall, corresponding to more collisions) They are still relevant as beginners (more likely to have low speed falls), racers (see hitting gates) off piste (see hitting trees) should use them, but I expect the push for everyone to use them is similar to some car improvements; A huge chunk of the benefit is eaten up by people simply taking more risks (increasing the risk to others; though at least for skiing being the 'other' is down to your own choices...).
GPS trackers - While I use one, I far prefer my garmin watch to a phone, because it is somewhat harder to get top speed data out; IMHO the interesting part is where I have been (or if touring, how long it took to go up) but it is far to easy to get into discussions of "how fast did you go" with some groups at stops/on lifts/anywhere else on mountain and start competing immediately; Far less motivation to do so when the discussion happens at 5pm in the bar; Generally getting this out of the watch means stopping and faffing with watch + phone to sync, so can't get dragged into competitions (at least without a timed track with proper controls and timing gear... Most resorts have (at least) one open to everyone and a far better challenge + test of skills than how quickly can you go straight lining it...)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I was once sat at bar enjoying a hot wine.
I saw a person come down the slope & he was completely out of control. He had lost his poles & was wobbling like bambi on ice & was doing his best to keep upright. He had probably picked up to much speed to take a tactical tumble & at one point he instinctively tried to grab out at anything & at that happened to be a kid of about 7 or 8. He missed the grab by inches & ended up falling into a pile of snow on the edge of the slope. That could have been nasty if he had managed to grab the kid. While was only a blue, the piste was cut to pieces & quite icy in places.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| The most common collisions I have seen have not been from one skier having excessive speed, but from two similar speed skiers coming together: both can see that the piste below them is 'clear', so there is no-one they have to avoid, but neither have sufficient peripheral vision to realise that there is someone close by! Can often happen within groups skiing together. Also where pistes meet - particularly at a shallow angle when skiers on both pistes may not even realise there is a junction. Junctions are always signposted at the top, but at the foot there are at best 'SLOW' banners and often no indication at all. There is an argument for having some form of 'Junction ahead' sign on the sides that will merge, so that skiers can look up / slow down / move away from that side of the piste. |
Indeed - skiing in groups at any sort of speed is just stupid - I've seen instructors in clinics take each other out and as for "friends and family" groups some total insanity. I play the "will they look" game at merges and usually well over 50% of people don't look at all trusting in their forcefield of ignorance to protect them and others.
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All good points and the "after 3pm" is probably very valid, however the accident happened at 11am and the skier was a local ...
Having said that, I suspect that a lot of the speedy skiers and snowboarders have an over confidence in their abilities (like after passing your driving test).
I am not sure that the resorts help, faster and greater capacity uplifts make for much busier pistes and best to avoid the runs down from a Folie Douce from lunchtime onwards.
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You know it makes sense.
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| DavidYacht wrote: |
| best to avoid the runs down from a Folie Douce from lunchtime onwards. |
I don't think the 'festivities' at any of the Folies Douces kick off until after lunch, so anything before 3pm is just the standard rubbish skiing IMO.
After that, agree, below a FD, Mooserwirt, or similar, watch your back.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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. . .this is awful - and as Pam W mentioned earlier accidents occur 'out of the blue' in most instances (a bit like car crashes) and no amount of diligence can protect from them occurring.
Takes me back to my first ever ski trip with my family in Wengen . . first day on the slopes and my middle child (7rs old at the time) was minding his own business in a line of kids waiting for the poma lift on a nursery slope when an 18stone out of control adult conveniently used him as a brake / safety fence and broke his leg in two places.
Luckily I wasn't there to witness it (my non skiing wife was however) as I'm sure there may have been some additional injuries but it could have easily been a lot worse.
As to fault who's actually was it? Both my son and the adult in question were complete beginners so both had a right to be on the same slope - arguably it was my fault for maybe not checking the slope itself (I'd selfishly b*ggered off up the mountain) as although gentle it was really 'wide / open' and perhaps not appropriate for small kids / total beginners however at the end of the day maybe fate was actually on our side as he lives to tell the tale and has turned into sporty and confident 6' teenager. . .
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 17-01-22 14:30; edited 3 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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What an awful story...
I've mentioned this before: I find it incredible that on blue runs half the skiers are faster than me, on red runs maybe 20% and on black runs hardly anyone - and I'm not any kind of ski god. (Offpiste is another story but that doesn't count for this discussion.)
I simply don't understand how so many people feel that it's fine to ski that fast on busy blue runs.
My view is simple: assume that anyone in front may actively try to get in front of you - make sure that you can still avoid them. In many cases, this means you just have to accept skiing a lot more slowly than you would otherwise be comfortable with.
(If you're skiing slowly and you still hit someone, not good but at least the likelihood of a serious accident is far far lower).
And one more point: in Serre Chevalier in the week between Christmas and New Year, lots of ski club youngsters were skiing really fast. Amazing quality and control, I looked in awe but I also thought even they were going too fast on the blue runs filled with us normal people.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I agree with that - it’s not really the ski club kids who are the main risk factor but they do ski way too fast on a busy blue.
Doesn’t matter how good they are.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Agree with this . . .blue runs / slow ski areas should be policed if possible just like they are in Vail . . .if Europe had the same 'sue you' culture maybe people would slow down.
Its one of my pet hates in resorts but the one resort that has always seemed consistently 'safe' in my experience is Obergurgl . . maybe its the amount of grey hair / lack of snowboarders on the slopes compared to other resorts . . .(controversial) . .!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I am struggling to see any justification at all for the bloke who hit the kid or any views about instructor error - there were only 4 children in the class ffs, so it was hardly one of those classes that you can say had a long tail and was difficult to judge. I wasn't there, so cannot say for sure, but reading about it and based on my experience of lots of pistes, I definitely think the skier who hit the poor little girl is guilty of criminal negligence and therefore the resultant manslaughter. It's not like you cannot see the children or their bibs - even in a white out, which it was not. There can be no forgiveness based on evidence so far - if extenuating circumstance emerge then a review of our feelings can then happen.
I have skied that piste in Flaine...it's clearly blue, used for classes regularly and not difficult to sight the children - hence my comments.
Maybe I am lucky that I find the enjoyment of the youngsters a joy to see and tend to stop or slow down massively when they are in my jurisdiction to watch them (although saying that is, sadly, contentious in this day and age). I love seeing them zip along as it reminds me of the fun my daughter's had in ski school and the times I would catch a glimpse of them.
I must confess to being really sad for the girl and her family. These moments when it could be one of your own kids or you should always make you think hard.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 17-01-22 14:48; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Anyone who thinks NA is some paragon of virtue in this should be aware that should this have been an incident in the US discussed on a US forum the discussion would be EXACTLY the same. The efforts at speed control are fairly token at best and often fairly mis-focused (a case of being seen to do something rather than actively achieving much). Fear of being sued does nothing to contain hotshot teens/20s, Joey Beercan in his Steelers jacket or Bro Butterlicious trying to ollie the slow sign on his board.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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As a parent of young children, reading this is just crushing. Thinking, I wonder what the options are? Mixing large numbers of people of very different skill levels and very different goals for their skiing is clearly fundamentally risky. It's truly remarkable that there aren't more stories like this.
I'm just throwing random ideas out there, so don't be too harsh on me: What about segregated 'expert' slopes, where kids are banned and adults accept the risk of accidents? It would only need to be one red or black in a resort, perfectly possible in the large mega-resorts, but perhaps less practical in a small resort. Or 'expert' times (e.g. 8am to 8.30am) where people can go as crazy as they wish?
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@greengriff, or segregated kids slopes called the bunny hill or nursery area which most resorts actually have? I know the counterpoint is how dare anyone suggest restricting kids and families from the whole mountain but reality is dickheads don't keep themselves to a designated expert slope (for starters its too bruising to the ego of a typical blue run hero to feel a bit of fear) and they still need to get down the mountain for lunch or at the end of the day etc.
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| abc wrote: |
| David B wrote: |
I believe in America they are very proactive in policing the slopes and it is not uncommon for ski pass's to be confiscated from unsafe skier or boarders.
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Many here complain about the high ticket cost in North America. I frequently see ski patrols when skiing in US/Canada. But I don't often see pisteurs when skiing in the Alps. That large number of ski patroller is part of that cost. |
Things are very different in Europe vs North America. Patrol has NO policing powers. They/We are snow safety ( avalanche risk + signage) and medical help/rescue.
If someone is really up to no good we are advised to take note in case something happens but not to do anything about it. We can call the policw/gendarms If some is being dangerous. And we have to call them in case of any injury due to collision.
In Italy the Police actively patrol the pistes in certain resorts. Normally visible in Courmayeur.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @greengriff, or segregated kids slopes called the bunny hill or nursery area which most resorts actually have? I know the counterpoint is how dare anyone suggest restricting kids and families from the whole mountain but reality is dickheads don't keep themselves to a designated expert slope (for starters its too bruising to the ego of a typical blue run hero to feel a bit of fear) and they still need to get down the mountain for lunch or at the end of the day etc. |
Fair points. I should have made myself clearer sorry: by 'expert slopes' I didn't mean that they were the only ones people inclined to go fast on could use. I meant that they were provided as a place for you to go hell for leather on in exchange for you agreeing not to do so on a crowded blue.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, that's my impression. Most of my experience is at Whistler and there always seem to be plenty of people skiing too fast for the conditions on the home runs
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