I don't think that banging the back of your head is that unusual.
Its not, but most back of head injuries are beginner snowboarders, most side of the head injuries are beginner skiers, both as a result of where they tend to naturally fall while learning.
Wear what you like but the crack in the back of my helmet saved me too. Only time I have bounced my head off the hard snow that way but once is enough. Happened within 10mins of starting a holiday whilst I was on a simple green run, just caught an edge and next thing I know I am on my back. Never done it since. Spent the next couple of weeks with whiplash too.
What really rips my knitting in these threads is the people who have absolute certainty and presumption about every incident. In your case the part I have made bold above.
How do you know it saved you? How do you know that it wasnt the extra girth/size of the helmet protrusion that caused your whiplash??
The FACT (and lets try and deal in them rather than hysterics) is that you dont know, as you have no point of reference for exactly the same incident sans helmet.
I could come on here asserting after EVERY run that my life was saved because I could hear the noddies coming toward me at high speed and avoided them - but that would be daft, wouldnt it............
Finally......you will note very few (any??) threads started by non helmet wearers castigating or abusing helmet wearers to throw them away, emily pankhurst style and don a wooly hat.
So, cheers, I will wear what I like - thats my point, it is up to the individual.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
nelly0168 wrote:
Jake43 wrote:
nelly0168 wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
I don't think that banging the back of your head is that unusual.
Its not, but most back of head injuries are beginner snowboarders, most side of the head injuries are beginner skiers, both as a result of where they tend to naturally fall while learning.
Wear what you like but the crack in the back of my helmet saved me too. Only time I have bounced my head off the hard snow that way but once is enough. Happened within 10mins of starting a holiday whilst I was on a simple green run, just caught an edge and next thing I know I am on my back. Never done it since. Spent the next couple of weeks with whiplash too.
What really rips my knitting in these threads is the people who have absolute certainty and presumption about every incident. In your case the part I have made bold above.
How do you know it saved you? How do you know that it wasnt the extra girth/size of the helmet protrusion that caused your whiplash??
The FACT (and lets try and deal in them rather than hysterics) is that you dont know, as you have no point of reference for exactly the same incident sans helmet.
I could come on here asserting after EVERY run that my life was saved because I could hear the noddies coming toward me at high speed and avoided them - but that would be daft, wouldnt it............
Finally......you will note very few (any??) threads started by non helmet wearers castigating or abusing helmet wearers to throw them away, emily pankhurst style and don a wooly hat.
So, cheers, I will wear what I like - thats my point, it is up to the individual.
So kind of you to be so subtle in your response. Being in mind I said that the beginning - so please do. I do not care what you wear.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'm guessing talking about helmets on this forum is like talking about religion and politics!
I originally wore one because I find woolly hats irritating.
The same week I landed head first on ice and was very glad to be wearing one.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I used to find the idea of helmets horrifying but since being ordered to use one by the management I have never looked back. Apart from keeping my very poorly thatched head nice and warm, it definitely saved my bacon a few years ago when I had a full pelt catch of an edge and bounced on the top of my head 4 or 5 times. Saw stars for a few seconds then got up and on I went. Without the helmet I expect the outcome would have been very different. Used to think it would never happen to me, was my first fall in about 10 years....
Can't really use my head cam without one either. The mounts won't stick to the side of my head
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Posidrive wrote:
Can't really use my head cam without one either. The mounts won't stick to the side of my head
As you get older, and balder you'll find the 3M sticks much better
After all it is free
After all it is free
I am definitely not buying a helmet. The number of people that seem to have horrific crashes after buying one is scary.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Same goes for people using seat belts in cars sorry, couldn't resist that!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
danmar94 wrote:
I'm guessing talking about helmets on this forum is like talking about religion and politics!
Or like taking kids out of school - newer ending story
And I wouldn't tell
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
They look better, warmer, safer, and keep your goggles in place. What's not to like?
Spent my first 30 years skiing not wearing one, as only Robert Redford in downhill racer wore one.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
twoodwar wrote:
They look better, warmer, safer, and keep your goggles in place. What's not to like?
Spent my first 30 years skiing not wearing one, as only Robert Redford in downhill racer wore one.
I normally wear sunglasses, don't have a cold head and they don't look better on me
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@danmar94, Far more important than that - around about twice a year someone (usually a person quite new to Snowheads) will start a helmet thread. Then you just sit back and watch the fun.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
nelly0168 wrote:
Jake43 wrote:
nelly0168 wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
I don't think that banging the back of your head is that unusual.
Its not, but most back of head injuries are beginner snowboarders, most side of the head injuries are beginner skiers, both as a result of where they tend to naturally fall while learning.
Wear what you like but the crack in the back of my helmet saved me too. Only time I have bounced my head off the hard snow that way but once is enough. Happened within 10mins of starting a holiday whilst I was on a simple green run, just caught an edge and next thing I know I am on my back. Never done it since. Spent the next couple of weeks with whiplash too.
What really rips my knitting in these threads is the people who have absolute certainty and presumption about every incident. In your case the part I have made bold above.
How do you know it saved you? How do you know that it wasnt the extra girth/size of the helmet protrusion that caused your whiplash??
The FACT (and lets try and deal in them rather than hysterics) is that you dont know, as you have no point of reference for exactly the same incident sans helmet.
I could come on here asserting after EVERY run that my life was saved because I could hear the noddies coming toward me at high speed and avoided them - but that would be daft, wouldnt it............
Finally......you will note very few (any??) threads started by non helmet wearers castigating or abusing helmet wearers to throw them away, emily pankhurst style and don a wooly hat.
So, cheers, I will wear what I like - thats my point, it is up to the individual.
It's totally up to the individual. I don't always wear one - although the days between them are becoming fewer.
But what would rip rip up my knitting, if I could knit, or even owned a pre knitted woolly hat is this notion that helmets are overated and and aren't worth wearing as there isn't any evidence to suggest they reduce risk of injury. This is absloute tosh of the highest order. Don't get me wrong, the internet is full of absolute tosh of the highest order but, the more we collectively ridicule the individuals behind this ludicrous counter culture, the closer we will eventually move towards a safer sport where there isn't the odd end of bell (as Yoda would say) trying to convince other skiers that helmets don't make much difference.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
RUGBY PETER wrote:
@danmar94, Far more important than that - around about twice a year someone (usually a person quite new to Snowheads) will start a helmet thread. Then you just sit back and watch the fun.
+ 1 +2 +3 ............
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
But what would rip rip up my knitting, if I could knit, or even owned a pre knitted woolly hat is this notion that helmets are overated and and aren't worth wearing as there isn't any evidence to suggest they reduce risk of injury. This is absloute tosh of the highest order. Don't get me wrong, the internet is full of absolute tosh of the highest order but, the more we collectively ridicule the individuals behind this ludicrous counter culture, the closer we will eventually move towards a safer sport where there isn't the odd end of bell (as Yoda would say) trying to convince other skiers that helmets don't make much difference.
[/quote]
But (see my earlier post), there are lots of credible, peer reviewed scientific data from reputable sources that will show both sides of the debate. Have a look around. Many state that there is no evidence that helmets prevent serious injury (note, not minor injuries which are prevented) and some state that wearing helmets increase the probability of serious injury as they encourage risk taking. All agree that helmets reduce injury in children, and of course many state that injuries as a whole are reduced. These are not my opinions but tested facts. So, I'm afraid those nice men in white coats don't necessarily agree on your absolute tosh of the highest order, and the "it's obvious innit" statements like all such statements don't stand up to close inspection when rigorous science is applied.
You may be proved right in the future but at the moment I'm afraid the jury is out. The problem I think we have is that as skiing/snowboarding equipment gets more sophisticated skiers and boarders of very low ability are more able to ski very fast very badly and this seems to make it more likely that helmets are needed because high speed accidents are more likely. I don't wear a helmet at the moment but I may change my mind, not because I'm likely to put myself in a dangerous position (been skiing far, far too long for that) but because of the latest generation of uncontrolled speed freaks on the slopes who believe they can ski/board and are a danger to me.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
MikeM wrote:
Quote:
But what would rip rip up my knitting, if I could knit, or even owned a pre knitted woolly hat is this notion that helmets are overated and and aren't worth wearing as there isn't any evidence to suggest they reduce risk of injury. This is absloute tosh of the highest order. Don't get me wrong, the internet is full of absolute tosh of the highest order but, the more we collectively ridicule the individuals behind this ludicrous counter culture, the closer we will eventually move towards a safer sport where there isn't the odd end of bell (as Yoda would say) trying to convince other skiers that helmets don't make much difference.
But (see my earlier post), there are lots of credible, peer reviewed scientific data from reputable sources that will show both sides of the debate. Have a look around. Many state that there is no evidence that helmets prevent serious injury (note, not minor injuries which are prevented) and some state that wearing helmets increase the probability of serious injury as they encourage risk taking. All agree that helmets reduce injury in children, and of course many state that injuries as a whole are reduced. These are not my opinions but tested facts. So, I'm afraid those nice men in white coats don't necessarily agree on your absolute tosh of the highest order, and the "it's obvious innit" statements like all such statements don't stand up to close inspection when rigorous science is applied.
You may be proved right in the future but at the moment I'm afraid the jury is out. The problem I think we have is that as skiing/snowboarding equipment gets more sophisticated skiers and boarders of very low ability are more able to ski very fast very badly and this seems to make it more likely that helmets are needed because high speed accidents are more likely. I don't wear a helmet at the moment but I may change my mind, not because I'm likely to put myself in a dangerous position (been skiing far, far too long for that) but because of the latest generation of uncontrolled speed freaks on the slopes who believe they can ski/board and are a danger to me.[/quote]
I searched and read for many reports. I taught about the physics of collisions for many years. If you collide your head with somebody/something a helmet is going to make a massive difference to reducing your chance of head injury. To suggets otherwise is, sorrt to be so blunt, absolute tosh.
Whether or not putting someonr in in a helmet changes their perceptin of danger and decision making processes whilst skiing is a different matter.
The two factors should not be confused though.
I personally believe that people ski more dangerously now tha they did thirty years ago is a myth. Long skis, slopes in fair worse condition due to less grooming and many school trips before risk assessments came in to play (any teacher could take a group of kids down an icy black mogul field, if they chose to do so) meant it was carnage in Andorra and Tonale in the 80s.....
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@cameronphillips2000, it's an interesting question as to "skiing dangerously" as I absolutely observe many more skiers skiing faster and in no more control (if any) than they would have had skiing much more slowly on old skool skis.
Which makes the situation more dangerous to ME. 20 years ago, on long skinny skis I was skiing faster than those around me in, I humbly suggest, complete control.
Now the exogenous risk is far greater and there's less I can do about it (although I do wear a helmet and it has saved me now many times from bloody lacerations thanks to idiots whi don't know how to carry their skis )
I'm not a helmet wearer and having just come back from 10 days in Jackson Hole it was interesting to see that I was one of the very few that didn't. I'd say that over 95% of skiers were wearing them
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
People see the past through rose tinted spectacles. In the 80s we all bombed down bumpy, torn up red runs at break neck speed in two metre plus skis that didn't have much cut to them so were very difficult to turn. The bloodwagon was a very frequent sight and nobody wore helmets. Livigno, Andorra and 'Suzi Does it' were favourites amongst the British 18-30 brigade who were looking for the next thing. Coachloads of kids arrived at resorts high altitude resorts and drank, got sunburnt and skied with equally pissed teachers between lessons. Hospital visits were frequent and the most common cause of injury was the toboggan run. Third degree sunburn was a close second. The traditional middle class British skier was appalled a these inner city hooligans (it was a god given right for inne city Parisian kids in the 80s to be shipped out for week on the slopes in those days) tearing about the slopes with their snowbaords, long hair, neon jackets, graffiti and drugs so they paid their way to higher, more exclusive resorts. The inner city skateboards and bmxers saw a few of their mates smash their heads open and it no longer became cool not to wear a helmet. This culture extended to the halfpipes and funparks.
We all had a bloody good time though amongst the beer, blood, Sangria and sex.
There's still the old fuddy old skier who thinks helmets don't make you safer, in the same way my gandad wouldn't start wearing a seatbelt then the laws changed and he was in his mid seventies.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@cameronphillips2000, You still aren't convincing me that the speeds are the same.
Shaped skis make it (arguably) too easy.
On piste, the danger is now the other skiers. It was not like that with straight skis.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I probably would but i ski too hot to wear a helmet.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
under a new name wrote:
@cameronphillips2000, You still aren't convincing me that the speeds are the same.
Shaped skis make it (arguably) too easy.
On piste, the danger is now the other skiers. It was not like that with straight skis.
It was carnage with straight skis. It took so much long to learn and get good control. Everyone was talking about how to parallel turn. If you could, and you were British, you were a god. It took most people about 5 weeks on snow to doing them well. A large percntage of skiers were not in full control, particulalrly on the moguls - of which there were many runs.
I was taken out loads of times and I took others out too whilst I learnt. I wasn't aware of the skiers code as nobody ever taught it to us. Lesson were a joke - 'follow me' benzee knees - hello beautiful, what are you doing tonight? I think better piste managemnet has led to hgiher speed perhaps - you just could't go straight on many runs without gaining a lot of air. The whole mountains we full of people traversing across steep mogul fields, in snowploughs, leaning back, losing conrtol and gaining speed until the hit someone or went of the side of the slope - happy days! The skis even have TURBO written across them.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
This is quite accurate - only these guys are very good. It gets better as it goes on....
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@cameronphillips2000, I think you are missing my subtle point.
E.g. Between 1988 and 1991 I worked the season as a "guide" skiing 5 or 6 days a week. Every week.
It wasn't carnage (although I will admit that maybe it was in Andorra) but not around the PdS (mostly - although a couple of slopes were to be avoided due to self locating obstacles).
People simply couldn't generally get the out of control speed that is now common as a. There were often bumps around and b. They'd usually fall off their skis.
And as I was a reasonably competent skier, I could avoid them (and rarely, the "wall" excepted) were they fast enough to be a danger either to myself or my groups. The ones that were fast enough, were at that point, airborne.
Ok, is there some rose tinted glass going on? Maybe, human memory is particularly fallible. But I would have stronger memory about emotion I think than fact and I don't recall often thinking that someone was both too fast and out of control whereas I can't recall a day recently when I didn't think so, several times.
Bearing in mind that my mind set at the time was very sensitive to threats to my clients, I would have notced.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 1-01-16 17:06; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@under a new name,
Quote:
Shaped skis make it (arguably) too easy.
On piste, the danger is now the other skiers. It was not like that with straight skis.
So true. Even I am capable of skiing quite quickly now and I always remember Nadenoodlee posting on here, years ago, the immortal comment - having seen some Inside Out footage of me - that she wasn't sure anything that slow could be described as skiing.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
cameronphillips2000, thanks for that, absolutely brilliant
Some serious fun being had there, and some decent skiers to boot.
No one getting injured and not a helmet in sight
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
under a new name wrote:
@cameronphillips2000, I think you are missing my subtle point.
E.g. Between 1988 and 1991 I worked the season as a "guide" skiing 5 or 6 days a week. Every week.
It wasn't carnage (although I will admit that maybe it was in Andorra) but not around the PdS (mostly - although a couple of slopes were to be avoided due to self locating obstacles).
People simply couldn't generally get the out of control speed that is now common as a. There were often bumps around and b. They'd usually fall off their skis.
And as I was a reasonably competent skier, I could avoid them (and rarely, the "wall" excepted) were they fast enough to be a danger either to myself or my groups. The ones that were fast enough, were at that point, airborne.
Ok, is there some rose tinted glass going on? Maybe, human memory is particularly fallible. But I would have stronger memory about emotion I think than fact and I don't recall often thinking that someone was both too fast and out of control whereas I can't recall a day recently when I didn't think so, several times.
Maybe you havea point. My skiing in the 80s was done in cheap school budget resorts full of young hooligans like myself. When I graduated and started eanring money I started going to resorts like Whistler and St Anton where most ski quite well. Then, when I had kids, I went to family resorts like Risoul and La Clusaz where most are carfeful. Now I'm getting old I ski in the Dolomites where it's middle aged sad gits like myself who need to stop a lot to wee and have nice lunches. I guess, if I went back to the budget school resorts, I may encounter the 90mph snowplough again.
Bearing in mind that my mind set at the time was very sensitive to threats to my clients, I would have notced.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Bones wrote:
cameronphillips2000, thanks for that, absolutely brilliant
Some serious fun being had there, and some decent skiers to boot.
No one getting injured and not a helmet in sight
Those guys could obviously ski. Now imagine the same skis and monoski, same outfits, same moguls, same jumps and tricks - but being performed by Barry, Gary and Darren who've left their XR3i parked up for the week and are on the lash in Pas de la Casa for their first week on snow. That was skiing in 1988........
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
cameronphillips2000 wrote:
under a new name wrote:
@cameronphillips2000, I think you are missing my subtle point.
E.g. Between 1988 and 1991 I worked the season as a "guide" skiing 5 or 6 days a week. Every week.
It wasn't carnage (although I will admit that maybe it was in Andorra) but not around the PdS (mostly - although a couple of slopes were to be avoided due to self locating obstacles).
People simply couldn't generally get the out of control speed that is now common as a. There were often bumps around and b. They'd usually fall off their skis.
And as I was a reasonably competent skier, I could avoid them (and rarely, the "wall" excepted) were they fast enough to be a danger either to myself or my groups. The ones that were fast enough, were at that point, airborne.
Ok, is there some rose tinted glass going on? Maybe, human memory is particularly fallible. But I would have stronger memory about emotion I think than fact and I don't recall often thinking that someone was both too fast and out of control whereas I can't recall a day recently when I didn't think so, several times.
Maybe you havea point. My skiing in the 80s was done in cheap school budget resorts full of young hooligans like myself. When I graduated and started eanring money I started going to resorts like Whistler and St Anton where most ski quite well. Then, when I had kids, I went to family resorts like Risoul and La Clusaz where most are carfeful. Now I'm getting old I ski in the Dolomites where it's middle aged sad gits like myself who need to stop a lot to wee and have nice lunches. I guess, if I went back to the budget school resorts, I may encounter the 90mph snowplough again.
Bearing in mind that my mind set at the time was very sensitive to threats to my clients, I would have notced.
I take your point - I do now ski in far more exclusive places than when i skied as a school kid in the 80s. Maybe if I went to school vudget resorts at peak time I'd see the boy racer brigade out in full force. I really don't think it's skis that have made people faster though. You can do 400 mph on pair of Dynstar 210s with only a few days on snow. I know, I've done it. It's better piste maintainance. Everything was cut up and bumpy in those days and you can't ski thebig bumps with no skill or experience. I still can't. People were slowed by the conditions more than the skis.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
People see the past through rose tinted spectacles. In the 80s we all bombed down bumpy, torn up red runs at break neck speed in two metre plus skis that didn't have much cut to them so were very difficult to turn. The bloodwagon was a very frequent sight and nobody wore helmets.
There's still the old fuddy old skier who thinks helmets don't make you safer, in the same way my gandad wouldn't start wearing a seatbelt then the laws changed and he was in his mid seventies.
As all the statistics that have been published have not indicated any fall in skiing mortality since helmets became fashionable and fallaciously equated to skiing safely.
The old fuddy duddies may well be right.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@cameronphillips2000, great video find (or is that you & mates?) some quality skiing!
Ahhh, very good point. Piste prep (i.e. Slopes that in Scotland in the 70s would have been a good race course) definitely, definitely allows higher speeds.
And less control, until it all goes a little unexpected...
[quote="under a new name"]@cameronphillips2000, great video find (or is that you & mates?) some quality skiing!
No - Much better than I ever was. I think it may be a group of instructors, local race club or a bunch of lads with at least a full season behind them. The don't look old enough to have learnt on the 80s kit so they've done really well to strap on those old planks and ski the way they do, particularly as it loks liek they've had a few. The video shows just how much jumping around and unweighting it took to turn those old skis....
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Hurtle wrote:
@under a new name,
Quote:
Shaped skis make it (arguably) too easy.
On piste, the danger is now the other skiers. It was not like that with straight skis.
So true. Even I am capable of skiing quite quickly now and I always remember Nadenoodlee posting on here, years ago, the immortal comment - having seen some Inside Out footage of me - that she wasn't sure anything that slow could be described as skiing.
Not sure that I would agree with this, I remember finding deserted runs on my old 2m skis and letting them run, doing super g turns at speeds way higher than I would attempt on my current 14m radius skis, shaped / carvers whatever you call them are simply too unstable in a straight or nearly straight line. IF? there has been an increase in high speed slope collisions, increased piste grooming would be a very likely candidate for blame, in the days of straight skis there were more bumps. However, the style of carving turns, long sweeping turns taking the whole width of the piste (by good, experienced skiers that can actually carve a turn) vs a skier doing short radius turns straight down the fall line is probably the main reason for carver skis causing accidents, indeed there was a video clip of such a collision on here last year with the discussion of who was to blame.
I did about 10 weeks in Andorra in the 80's and don't remember it being carnage in the slightest, the slopes were too quiet, everyone was stood in lift queues.
True, to say that wearing a helmet has no effect on reducing head injury if you hit your head is complete tosh but they do not make you a safer skier, all of the anecdotal theories suggest the opposite, I feel safer from (not in) a collision with another skier without a helmet. The only way that helmet use has made me safer on the slopes is by making me feel vulnerable without one so I am constantly keeping my eyes and ears open for danger heading my way.
After all it is free
After all it is free
This is also great. I love the bottle of vocka on the sleigh. It also shows the carnage that used to occur around the chairlifts before detatchables became the norm...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Hurtle wrote:
@under a new name,
Quote:
Shaped skis make it (arguably) too easy.
On piste, the danger is now the other skiers. It was not like that with straight skis.
So true. Even I am capable of skiing quite quickly now and I always remember Nadenoodlee posting on here, years ago, the immortal comment - having seen some Inside Out footage of me - that she wasn't sure anything that slow could be described as skiing.
Early in my skiing days I was on Cairngorm in particularly bad weather and a turn wasn't working as I'd expect, so I shouted over the wind to my friend: "I'm not turning?" to which he replied: "you're not moving !"
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
This one conveys the essence of 80s skiing. Knocking into ech other and falling over was all part of the fun. We smiled at each other, got up and carried on skiing. No days we look miserable and hand the other party our lawyer's card.....
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
sorry, couldn't resist that!
)
