 Poster: A snowHead
|
And what's different in Europe? @Jonny Jones,
4 grades of runs, just like NA
Increasingly, resorts are publicising state of grooming, Chamonix for example (weird, huh?)
Every resort has helpful pisteurs who will more than happily give out that information, and in particular, give detailed advice on avalanche risks.
One critical difference, many European areas are vastly larger than many NA resorts. I wouldn't expect a Morzine pisteur to have detailed knowledge of that day's conditions in Torgon, for example.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| GO1996 wrote: |
| @tangowaggon, to post saying where have all the black runs gone you must be a right w*****, there are so many around. Clearly think you're too good for piste runs? again shows signs of a w***** |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
@jedster,
| Quote: |
2. It would be helpful if resorts were diligent about marking that runs are ungroomed at the top if it is not obvious from the lift
|
Bit late by that stage I would have thought. Far better to have a board at the bottom of each leift with comments scrawled by the name of each run. (If one is really fussed about the pisting situation)
@philwig,
| Quote: |
One issue though is that if it's an "expert run", then you can't legitimately bitch about experts riding it quickly. It's a bit like the laned-out section of a swimming pool: you know people are pounding up and down there, so it's probably not a great idea to doggy-paddle across the lane in front of them.
|
It's not really the same at all. Looking through a pile of piste maps I have here from years gone by I can't see a single example of where black runs are labelled as 'expert runs.' They are labelled as 'difficult', which is an entirely different concept. Personally, I think that anyone of whatever level is perfectly entitled to tackle any slope they wish. A beginner going down a difficult black maybe foolhardy, but as long as they don't endanger anyone else then that is their problem. I have no problem with you going whatever speed you like down a black, or indeed a nursery slope, as long as your speed doesn't endanger anyone else. If others have 'bitched' about experts skiing a black quickly then I presume its not jealousy, but because they feel endangered.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
I have seen "Experts Only" signs at the start of a piste. But have always taken this as a warning to deter skiers of lesser ability, rather than as a sign for fast skiing only. Experts can ski slowly too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
Finally, all resorts in North America are well staffed with helpful ski patrollers whose role in life is to let you know which runs are in good condition on a particular day. Scare of ice? Dislike soft snow? Intimdated by bumps? Worried about thin cover? Ask the patrollers and they'll tell you which runs to avoid. |
Radio Val d'Isere covers snow condition and grooming. Plus half the time, look up when you are on the lift and you can see what's bumpy and what is not.
As for grades, head over to a climbing forum and you'll invariably find a thread running on someone's brilliant idea for a better grading system. Yet somehow that perfect system is never quite found. Funny, that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@dode,
| Quote: |
I have seen "Experts Only" signs at the start of a piste. But have always taken this as a warning to deter skiers of lesser ability, rather than as a sign for fast skiing only. Experts can ski slowly too.
|
Indeed. I've seen the same thing and was chuffed to bits when we plucked up courage and skiied it without problem. I'm officially an expert now!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| johnE wrote: |
| Or perhaps an update on the resort web should tell us what has been done over the last few days. |
Baqueira-Beret in the Spanish Pyrenees has an excellent snow report on their website, updated several times daily, in which each piste is listed and marked not only as open or closed but also as "pisted today". They also put the open/closed state of the itineraries (which are always unpisted, the OP will be relieved to hear  ) All resorts should adopt this! http://www.baqueira.es/parte/report . (There are lots of closed pistes today due to the heavy snowfall we're currently getting in the Pyrenees.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@GO1996, if you were in a group in a pub and someone you didn't know made this comment in the interests of having a discussion, would you call them a w***** to their face, having never met them before?
If your answer is 'yes', then i suggest leaving this forum until you can behave like an adult. If 'no', perhaps you might consider an apology.
I'm no veteran of Snowheads but in 2 years of being a member, I've never read such an unnecessarily insulting comment which is so blatantly against the ethos of the forum.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
the fellow who hankers
after calling others w@nkers
is probably short
of a smarter retort
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| grazzenger wrote: |
@GO1996, if you were in a group in a pub and someone you didn't know made this comment in the interests of having a discussion, would you call them a w***** to their face, having never met them before?
If your answer is 'yes', then i suggest leaving this forum until you can behave like an adult. If 'no', perhaps you might consider an apology.
I'm no veteran of Snowheads but in 2 years of being a member, I've never read such an unnecessarily insulting comment which is so blatantly against the ethos of the forum. |
I would agree with all of that. Other than maybe any threads regarding helmets/BASI/ESF.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Back on topic, I've noticed that the live map for the 3Vs now marks which pistes have been groomed with a little pistenbully.
There is definitely a place for groomed and ungroomed black pistes. I enjoy letting the skis run on the groomed runs which are also handy for working on controlled tight turns. And then I (now) enjoy the challenge of a nice steep bump run. They're labeled black because they're difficult and the ultimate test for skiers before heading off-piste. Perhaps some indication at the top of whether they've been groomed or not would be a good idea but heck, nothing's perfect.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@maggi, though perhaps that depends on the group you ski with and how much you want a 'defined' and 'planned route' sort of holiday. Some resorts aren't so huge that you can 'plan a route' as you might do in the 3V's, then people might tend to ski slopes rather than routes and as such will actively avoid any that might be terrifying. It's a pity that most blacks are narrow by definition, otherwise it might work to piste just a narrow section down one side as a get-out route, mind you I guess that would still get mogulled.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Quote: |
It's a pity that most blacks are narrow by definition
|
Really. I know many very wide black runs and quite a lot of narrow blue runs
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
I know many very wide black runs and quite a lot of narrow blue runs
|
+1
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@johnE, yep, me too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| under a new name wrote: |
And what's different in Europe? @Jonny Jones,
4 grades of runs, just like NA
Increasingly, resorts are publicising state of grooming, Chamonix for example (weird, huh?)
Every resort has helpful pisteurs who will more than happily give out that information, and in particular, give detailed advice on avalanche risks.
One critical difference, many European areas are vastly larger than many NA resorts. I wouldn't expect a Morzine pisteur to have detailed knowledge of that day's conditions in Torgon, for example. |
I'm just basing stuff on my personal experience. I've found that the tone is definitely different over there.
I've personally never been to a European resort where resort staff are standing at the top of every major lift with the sole purpose of providing information to skiers, but every NA resort that I've visited has provided that incredibly useful service. I'm sure some European resorts do it too; if so, all credit to them. From my own POV, I'm happy to ski down any run, but I talk to the resort staff every day because they know the mountain and can tell me where the best skiing is to be found on that particular day in current weather and snow conditions.
I personally find the distinction between single and double black runs and information about the day's grooming to be more useful than the distinction between blue and red runs that's missing in the States. Some, but not all, European resorts are starting to make that distinction: it's increasingly common to find excellent itineraries marked on trail maps and I see that in recent years a few resorts have started to use different symbols for runs that aren't regularly groomed. Both of these are entirely positive developments - good information can make the difference between a great day's skiing and one that's merely good - but it's by no means standard to find this information in Europe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Lots of people use their birth year in their name, in the case of @GO1996, it would indicate that they started skiing long after whole mountain grooming became popular and possibly has no idea what the "Black" runs that I refer to, were actually like and I would never suggest going back to huge moguls on blue and red runs but to have somewhere the size of the Sella Ronda with no REALLY challenging pistes is disappointing. When I was on the lift with Francesco, the offpiste guide on the BB, the subject was brought up and he pointed out a piste and said "That was big moguls from top to bottom, it was the challenge of Arabba!, now, it is nothing!".
I don't think relying on reports or resort radio to find which runs have been groomed is very effective unless you have a very good memory and a knowledge of the resort (I certainly would not remember!)
I just booked a week in La Plagne / Paradiski and looking forward to the good variety of marked pistes there, when I was there two years ago there was a lot of people using the ungroomed itineries even in mid January so it looks like there are still some people who enjoy the challenge.
Yes I am quite a good skier, sorry about that, It's the only "sport" that I have ever been good at, I love the bumps, trying to see how far I can follow the fall line, keeping my head and shoulders as steady as possible before my legs say enough! or I cock it up and have to bail out. I also love the groomed pistes, carving as hard as I can before the g force of my belly overcomes the strength of my legs  , I like doing excercises on the groomed pistes too, skiing on one leg, skiing backwards (though my body is too old & stiff to turn round far enough to see where I'm going), skiing backwards on one leg (joking, have tried it but need more practice  ).
I looked at an old piste map and blacks were marked "Very Difficult", a regularly groomed black is not "Very Difficult" The blacks may still be marked as such on the maps and mountain but many of the "Very difficult" runs have certainly disappeared.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
Some, but not all, European resorts are starting to make that distinction: it's increasingly common to find excellent itineraries marked on trail maps and I see that in recent years a few resorts have started to use different symbols for runs that aren't regularly groomed. Both of these are entirely positive developments
|
+1
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
+2
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@tangowaggon Irrespective of whether the problem is slope preparation, your skill improving, better equipment, etc, making black slopes easier (probably a combination of all)...
Italian skiers generally don't like bumps. Resorts know their target audience, so if you want bumps don't go to Italy. Also (though I've never been) SellaRonda is known (so I've heard) for the quality of it's piste prep'... probably the worst place to expect bumps
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Jonny Jones, Hmmm, yes, good points. That said, in my relatively limited experience (I've only skied NA ~8 trips) the ambassadors (as they are called often) are delightful folk, but not always the most entirely clued up. In my more considerable experience, if you ask any pisteur, they're more than happy to give advice.
More information = more fun for all. No question.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Top of Vallons apparently had a few bumps of the icy variety according to the OH. Burz wasn't bumpy, neither was fodoma but both were steep any icy. After slithering down about half of the steep pitch of fodoma trying to get skis above or below me I passed on Burz.
I'd suggest that a steep icy run is as challenging as a bump run. Just a different challenge. .. race prepped Face in Val d'Isere??
The runs on the Sella Ronda or main through routes definitely need grooming or the major appeal of the area for many wouldn't exist. Others could be left
Tbh wouldn't mind the odd mogulled red/blue pitch option to train for tougher stuff. Can finally cope easily enough with end of day bumps on busy runs so wouldn't mind a step up before meeting the likes of Sache, Sarenne or any of the other notorious French real black runs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In Verbier before entrances to the itineraries there are signs saying that this is not a piste, but a ski route reserved for good skiers, so people can make up their mind since there is no bailing out once you start skiing down, though I've seen people walking back up both from Tortin and Col de Gentianes with skis over there shoulders. Probably "good skiers" is little bit misleading, and you can only see what the route is like only after you passed the gates. Mont Gele have two warning signs - one before boarding the tram up and one at the top, saying that no part of the mountain is groomed. There are also plenty warning signs about the state of the groomed runs, when there is no new snow warning signs that snow is hard and fast (read icy) are common, the same early season when some pistes are open but there is a warning that snow cover is thin (read beware of rocks) or in spring there are signs that a piste is degraded. So there is always challenge and it's announced. I can't see the point leaving blue-red runs unpisted and letting bumps grow - people who like blue runs and red cruisers don't usually like bumps, and to practice for 'serious' stuff there are plenty bumps between runs where skiers can practice with an option to bail back to the run.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
The game has changed since the colour coding of pistes was first introduced, black runs that are regularly groomed are, without argument, easier to ski than they would be if they were left to build moguls as they were 20+ years ago.
There would be extreme resistance from the resorts and probably some practical reasons not to re grade regularly groomed blacks as reds, I think there is a case for resorts to mark ungroomed runs as such so that skiers can seek or avoid them because an ungroomed red is a very different beast to a groomed black.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
black runs that are regularly groomed are, without argument, easier to ski than they would be if they were left to build moguls as they were 20+ years ago.
|
I think this is one of the points which people have been contesting - I can certainly remember pisted black runs 20+ years ago and others have said the same.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| tangowaggon wrote: |
| ...black runs that are regularly groomed are, without argument, easier to ski than they would be if they were left to build moguls as they were 20+ years ago... |
I'll prove your 'without argument' assertion wrong by arguing. Which one is easier depends very much on the skier and their experience. I've skied more in the USA and Canada than in Europe, and resorts over there tend to leave most of their steeper slopes ungroomed; as a result, I'm much less comfortable on a steep groomer than I am on a steep slope slope that's covered with bumps or powder.
Here's a picture that I posted in another thread a couple of months back; it shows three ways down from the Sublette chair in Jackson Hole. Your options are: Bivouac, the steep single-black groomed run on the left; Wally World, an easyish double-black through the centre trees; or Cheyenne Bowl, a massively mogulled single black to the right.
I personally find Bivouac, the groomer, by far the most challenging of these runs. It's typically massively polished and icy, and a tiny mistake will leave you hurtling helplessly like a missile to the bottom. If, like me, your technique is less than perfect, you don't have a chance of edging properly on the ice-sheet and the whole thing is a heart-in-mouth horror-fest.
Cheyenne Bowl, by contrast, is a joy: soft forgiving moguls that leave you gasping for breath with screaming quads but a grin from ear to ear. If you fall, you get snow in every orifice - but nothing bad happens because the powder stops you. Wally World through the trees is much steeper and more challenging, but I still find it much easier to stay in control there than I do on the groomer.
So I disagree. There is definitely room for argument.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I'd say most people would agree with you @Jonny Jones, on that comparison set.
Looks nice, all of it 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
@Jonny Jones, By the look of it I would go for the one with bumps. After all - as I was once told by instructor - bumps are there to help you turn 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
I'd choose the bumps, too, given that alternative. But I'd not expect to enjoy it one little bit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Bumps for me too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
You don't go as far if you stuff it up in bumps...
As a low intermediate bumps were evil as turning being dictated by other factors was hard to deal with. Now a cut up piste full of obstacles and unguided missiles is flat light isn't a total mare so I'd like to think bumps of a reasonable size aren't too impossible. ..
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
I'd prefer the ice but probably take the bumps 2 out of 3 times just because you only get better at something by doing it.... I'm not good on either, just more confident on the icy bits.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I'd 180 off the cliff then charge switch GS turns through the bumps (to the road) without twintips 'cos I'm #somuchradderthanyou 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Not sure this is a fair comparison. Massively polished and icy does not really equate to 'groomed'. Surely the question is whether a black with moguls is easier than a freshly groomed black. I'd prefer the latter.
Is it just me that dislikes the word 'groomer?' Apart from being grammatically weird it just sounds like it's going to start stroking my thigh and inviting me to see it's naughty bits.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| pam w wrote: |
| I'd choose the bumps, too, given that alternative. But I'd not expect to enjoy it one little bit. |
@pam_w, there is actually another alternative: you can take a gentle blue groomer that follows the ridgeline. But what's the fun in that?
The trees are my favourite line, btw, but you have to concentrate. There are a few epically steep spots lurking in the forest that could leave a nervous skier in need of fresh underwear.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'd go all the way round the edge then come down the easy bit in the foreground
However if I had super-sharp edges, I'd prefer the groomer...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| Not sure this is a fair comparison. Massively polished and icy does not really equate to 'groomed'. Surely the question is whether a black with moguls is easier than a freshly groomed black. I'd prefer the latter. |
I think the comparison is fair and pretty common. All three routes have the same aspect, altitude, snow fall and similar traffic; the only difference is the work done by the piste bashers. Bashing a piste almost always turns it into hard pack once the gradient picks up beyond maybe 35 degrees because any fresh snow gets quickly pushed downhill.
Bivouac, the groomed run in the photo, is actually pure joy to ski until about 10.30 each day. By 11.00, it's almost always truly evil.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Is it just me that dislikes the word 'groomer?' Apart from being grammatically weird it just sounds like it's going to start stroking my thigh and inviting me to see it's naughty bits.
|
no, not just you. I dislike it too. Nearly as much as "pow" (especially when applied to freshly fallen clag).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
)
