 Poster: A snowHead
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It is interesting to see a different perspective as it is where I'm also seeking to come from. The perspective from the response to the SW blog is basically the case for the defence. I've seen it before and it is a classic defence approach of seeking to create some uncertainty when you don't have a strong case and does not address the principle of EU law. The defence case is not compelling under EU law and more to the point has not convinced the french police, authorities or judge.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Would you wish the surgeon operating on you to have been taught by an expert surgeon, with extra qualifications due to advanced level fellowships, or taught by someone who barely qualified as a doctor, failed all subsequent postgraduate exams, but was a good teacher?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I would rather be taught by someone who is an excellent skier and excellent instructor. I've been taught by ex-racers and they have been both. The fact remains that a level 4 has more training and experience and is therefore likely to be a better instructor.
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| peanuthead wrote: |
| Would you wish the surgeon operating on you to have been taught by an expert surgeon, with extra qualifications due to advanced level fellowships, or taught by someone who barely qualified as a doctor, failed all subsequent postgraduate exams, but was a good teacher? |
AS a skiing analogy i rather think that it depends on what the operation was as to the expertise and training I would require of my surgeon. I would not be too concerned as to their level of expertise if they were lancing a boil but would wish them to be highly qualified if transplanting a heart or whatever.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Why all the comparisons with doctors and surgeons we are talking sports instruction, so the question is should your instructor be a NBA allstar a regular NBA player or someone with ability to teach and in the end many many years of teaching experience at that level ie teaching beginners or intermediate level.
But then maybe you are right only level 4 ISTD should instruct people so please feel free to contact BASI and let them know they got it wrong and L1 through L3 should not be instructing anyone at all only shadowing till they are quick enough to pass these tests.
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A well known level 4 was humble enough to say he would be like Eddie the Eagle standard if he competed in the Olympics. Level 4 is not professional sportsman standard.
BASI levels are right - 2 hobby instructors teaching people to get to parallel standard in peak periods, 3 for seasonal workers for holiday skiers and level 4 for professional instructors. The skiing standards in the main skiing countries are higher though and once again under EU law countries can set their own standards. I see from a UK standard their standards may seem high but if you compare BZK standards with local skier standards then from a french perspective the SB case is laughable.
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| T Bar wrote: |
| peanuthead wrote: |
| Would you wish the surgeon operating on you to have been taught by an expert surgeon, with extra qualifications due to advanced level fellowships, or taught by someone who barely qualified as a doctor, failed all subsequent postgraduate exams, but was a good teacher? |
AS a skiing analogy i rather think that it depends on what the operation was as to the expertise and training I would require of my surgeon. I would not be too concerned as to their level of expertise if they were lancing a boil but would wish them to be highly qualified if transplanting a heart or whatever. |
The problem is: if they are qualified and licensed to lance your boil, they presumsbly
presumably are also to rrmto ourovr remove your stomach
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Sorry was eating marshmallows while texting
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Anyone know the qualifications required to type on snowheads?
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T Bar, 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Few additional details in this decision as overlooked by the UK media:
SB's instructors also face fines of 1,000 to 4,000 euro.
He is responsible for both sides' legal bills.
The Syndicat National des Moniteurs de Ski Français and their local branch were awarded a symbolic 1€.
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You know it makes sense.
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speed098, 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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albinomountainbadger, in practice Simon's instructors won't be paying any fines. The fines are suspended, but the instructors won't be hired by Simon in France next year (unless an appeal overturns the verdict, which is probably not realistic in the timescale), so no chance of a repeat offence. Simon is looking at a reduced ITSD-only operation in France next season and the possibility of starting an operation in Switzerland, where he would be based, while all verdicts are appealed. He's made all of the above public on the BASI Facebook page.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just read an email from Simon confirming that he (+ Alex) will indeed be teaching in Switzerland next season, in Crans Montana. They're still maintaining the Megeve operation though, with "Jay heading up the instructor team".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Snow Beard, already reserved!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Seems like a helpful suggestion from the friendly French judge.
Are they getting a Swiss patente or working for another ski school or running the gauntlet?
If I was being mischievous I could enquire have you checked the small print that instruction is included subject to not being arrested or extradited. And is a copy of the Daily Mail and UKIP membership still included in the price?
If I wasn't being mischievous then I'm glad to hear they've found an alternative solution.
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In a case which has apparent similarities to that of Simon Butler's, a British Mountain Biking instructor working in France running a business which employs 15 other people has been "formally forbidden" from working and has been told he must report to local police in the resort of Les Arcs in Savoie and risks imprisonment if he defies the ban, see Daily Telegraph story.
Incidentally, the report also mentions that last week, a written judgment on Mr Butler’s case was issued "which could prove critical for hundreds of Britons teaching outdoor activities in the France. It stated that local prosecutors could exercise a “discretionary power” over individuals’ rights to teach, thus creating far tougher rules for ski instructors than those stipulated under EU law." I wonder if anyone has seen the written judgement and can give details?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Newspapers are in the business of selling news so they write what their readership want to hear rather than give full balanced reports.
Not read the judgement but those who have read it state that no change to law in that ET and EMS required unless you have a carte pro under grand father rights. The comments in the DT are from SB perspective and the so called legal expert is actually someone who has previously been prosecuted by the French Authorities. Therefore there is no change from existing law, it will not change anything for instructors and it will not introduce tougher requirements than allowed by EU law. The ET and EMS are specifically allowed under EU law. The article uses the word could to try and make the article more interesting than it actually is. Nothing has changed. This is a specific SB issue and poor journalism.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| In a case which has apparent similarities to that of Simon Butler's, a British Mountain Biking instructor working in France running a business which employs 15 other people has been "formally forbidden" from working and has been told he must report to local police in the resort of Les Arcs in Savoie and risks imprisonment if he defies the ban |
I assume he doesn't have the IML + Mountain Bike option - probably just the IML with his MTB qualification would be enough to work but no IML, no worky.
The French industry minister says he wants to liberalize 50 monopolies in France to get the economy moving - I looked down the list: Taxi Drivers, Hairdressers, Chemists but no Ski Instructors. I guess the Savoyards are some kind of special flowers.
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Why on earth would anyone need a special qualification to teach MTB?
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Because they are working in the mountains. On the continent you will find that people even need a qualification to work in a shop. Admittedly it is bizarre to have an intelligent, helpful conversation with someone who actually knows what they are talking about after living in the UK. Ultimately it is different culture with different perspectives. Continentals find it equally difficult to understand why you would be able to charge for something without any training or qualifications.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| TTT wrote: |
A well known level 4 was humble enough to say he would be like Eddie the Eagle standard if he competed in the Olympics. Level 4 is not professional sportsman standard.
BASI levels are right - 2 hobby instructors teaching people to get to parallel standard in peak periods, 3 for seasonal workers for holiday skiers and level 4 for professional instructors. The skiing standards in the main skiing countries are higher though and once again under EU law countries can set their own standards. I see from a UK standard their standards may seem high but if you compare BZK standards with local skier standards then from a french perspective the SB case is laughable. |
^ True, However 3 comments
1) I know a few BASI L2 who are *superb* teachers and skiers. Patient and enthuastic and would no doubt get clients coming back all the time. Cant always judge peoples ability just by the badge(s) they hold 
2) BASI is well respected. For example L2 can be used anywhere on the planet (even France with TT).
I reckon their technical standards at L1-L4 are roughly comparable to other nations ?
Being a non-alpine nation BASI need to keep their standards high to maintain respect ?
3) For sure the French and Italians have the highest technical standards and are actively looking for ex-racers ?
However the English speaking nations (UK, NZ, USA and Canada) seem to foucs on teaching skills ?
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| Quote: |
For example L2 can be used anywhere on the planet (even France with TT).
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Can it?... i thought it was only on agreements (hence the international standards on the next levels).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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^ Yip - BASI L2 can be used pretty much anywhere on the globe.
Scotland, NZ, USA, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Argentina, Austria, CH, Slovenia, Australia, Japan <etc> France requires BASI L2 + TT pass to become a stagiere with ESF (as would be case for Frech local)..... Italy only allow you to work for 4 weeks.
Humble BASI L2 is more useful and globally accepted for teaching snow-ploughs than many people think ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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does anyone know of Simon Butler has started any appeal for help to pay for his legal fees ? I'd be happy to donate of he's fighting this case for the benefit of independent instructors and ultimately their clients.
I'm organising 3 group holidays this year, have just beekd a 28 bed hotel in Austria in preference to France, partly based on the french attitude to protectionism.
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| Buzzfan wrote: |
does anyone know of Simon Butler has started any appeal for help to pay for his legal fees ? I'd be happy to donate of he's fighting this case for the benefit of independent instructors and ultimately their clients.
I'm organising 3 group holidays this year, have just beekd a 28 bed hotel in Austria in preference to France, partly based on the french attitude to protectionism. |
because of course everything is such an open market in other Alpine countries. I have to say I haven't noticed any dip in numbers in the 3Vs from Brits boycotting France.
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You know it makes sense.
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Was reading last week the tourist authorities say Brits are in retreat on the south coast of France this summer. I doubt this has anything to do with ski hosting/instructing but may indicate a general trend that if repeated in the alps will no doubt be jumped on by certain parties as 'proof' of a boycott. The same authorities don't seem too bothered though as numbers of Scandinavians have increased following publicity efforts in those countries. So even if Brits do stop going to France, the French don't care.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Buzzfan wrote: |
does anyone know of Simon Butler has started any appeal for help to pay for his legal fees ? I'd be happy to donate of he's fighting this case for the benefit of independent instructors and ultimately their clients.
I'm organising 3 group holidays this year, have just beekd a 28 bed hotel in Austria in preference to France, partly based on the french attitude to protectionism. |
Is that the same Austria that's just been told by the EU to stop being so protectionist towards ski schools?
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Poster: A snowHead
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albinomountainbadger, There are problems getting UK passports renewed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| ... I have to say I haven't noticed any dip in numbers in the 3Vs from Brits boycotting France. |
Well it's not an issue if you're not still in school. Plus French ski schools have had a terrible reputation forever, so if you care about stuff like that you'd not be there in any case.
I just think it's a shame that they don't open up a bit more, as it would improve the quality of their product.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Seems a great way for the french to stick 2 fingers up to belgium and control migrant workers..... if only us brits had the same idea 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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There are plenty of options open to everyone for ski school that isn't ESF in the 3V and beyond.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| philwig wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| ... I have to say I haven't noticed any dip in numbers in the 3Vs from Brits boycotting France. |
Well it's not an issue if you're not still in school. Plus French ski schools have had a terrible reputation forever, so if you care about stuff like that you'd not be there in any case.
I just think it's a shame that they don't open up a bit more, as it would improve the quality of their product. |
Most of the people who rent our apartment use ESF. I've never had any criticism of the lessons in feedback from them. I suspect that snowheads posters are not hugely representative of the majority of people who go for a week's skiing. Plus there are a lot of wannabe instructors on snowheads.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| philwig wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| ... I have to say I haven't noticed any dip in numbers in the 3Vs from Brits boycotting France. |
Well it's not an issue if you're not still in school. Plus French ski schools have had a terrible reputation forever, so if you care about stuff like that you'd not be there in any case.
I just think it's a shame that they don't open up a bit more, as it would improve the quality of their product. |
Most of the people who rent our apartment use ESF. I've never had any criticism of the lessons in feedback from them. I suspect that snowheads posters are not hugely representative of the majority of people who go for a week's skiing. Plus there are a lot of wannabe instructors on snowheads. |
I was in both camps - started skiing 7 or so years ago and my first tuition was with the ESF, it was average to my unqualified eyes. Since I hopped onto EN forums I switched to The UK run schools and was 90% happy. Last year was looking for a non-FR school for my kids (they both speak EN and FR) and someone on this forum suggested to try-out ESF again. it was briliant, after 3 hour lessons my kids were still keen to ski the same day. Although I agreethat in local Fr schools you havenot only profesionals, but also those who just do ski lessons as a side job without 'proper' qualifications.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| philwig wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| ... I have to say I haven't noticed any dip in numbers in the 3Vs from Brits boycotting France. |
Well it's not an issue if you're not still in school. Plus French ski schools have had a terrible reputation forever, so if you care about stuff like that you'd not be there in any case.
I just think it's a shame that they don't open up a bit more, as it would improve the quality of their product. |
Most of the people who rent our apartment use ESF. I've never had any criticism of the lessons in feedback from them. I suspect that snowheads posters are not hugely representative of the majority of people who go for a week's skiing. Plus there are a lot of wannabe instructors on snowheads. |
I am a SH and big ESF fan. I usually do classe 4 (if it's offered) and it is always fantastic.
For kids though, ESI (another french outfit) are better but are not in every resort
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For those who want a wide choice of different ski schools, there is nothing to touch the bigger French resorts. Even in my little resort there is an ESI as well as the ESF. The idea of someone going to Austria for a wider choice is a laugh, really. That's not to say the French aren't protectionist - but they are not the worst, it seems.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Agreed. In Monetier-les-Bains alone, there is a choice of ESF, ESI and New Gen (formerly Eurekaski). Move down the valley and there's also Ski Connections, Buissoniere, and several other ESI schools as well as some independent instructors. Far from being protectionist, all are advertised on the Tourist office website.
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Not a fan of ESF. Had some instructors who were great "group leaders" and a fun group of people so I had a great week, but my skiing never really progressed with them. They usually are the cheapest for group lessons/
In Austria there always is only one, max two ski schools at least in the resorts I've been to. The instruction was better, usually (except one year over Christmas when my son's lessons were a mess)
The EuroTest seems irrelevant to ski teaching IMV
But having ski instructors that can make a living out of it is positive
I understood that the problem with SB was that he couldn't employ apprentices as only ITSDs that have gone through the French system can do so? Does seem a bit like discrimination. Small village mentality of us vs the outsiders?
I don't plan in boycotting anyplace but it seems to me like the ESF are fighting the wrong battle. The real issue being giving the clients what they want. Anyway, keep this thread going, it is quite interesting
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FAQ
