 Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Now we do need more info on this ie was there a name on the pass
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there are a good many questionable statements in that post, speed098 and that quote suggests you didn't read the OP properly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| xyzpaul wrote: |
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Ever heard the phrase Caveat emptor?
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No. |
Ignorantia juris non excusat
again 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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feef, but a companies T&C's are not the law and ignorance of a companies T&C's is an established defence in contract law if you show that the T&C's were withheld or indeed a reasonable effort was not made to communicate them.
We're going to argue this to a standstill, and actually I don't think we disagree much at all about the basic rights and wrongs, only their presentation.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Now we do need more info on this ie was there a name on the pass
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there are a good many questionable statements in that post, speed098 and that quote suggests you didn't read the OP properly. |
I did read it clearly enough, at no point does he say that the pass had a name on it. They do mention the name, and the photo being from Vail so was the name taken from the info at Vail as well? or was it from a CC transaction or written on the pass etc that is why I asked is the name on the pass.
No point is any more questionable than the company's T&C.
If people want to look on a company's T&C as a law that is upto them and I feel sorry for them because they are selling their rights for nothing.
This company could have this in their T&C very clearly written but not on display for the public and then refuse to provide a copy when requested. If that went to court even if a judge accepted that it was in the T&C by law they should have to throw out the case because the company did not make it clear and refused to provide a copy, even if the company do provide the info if a judge said well you provide no refund or transfer options etc, ie you just loose the money for days un-used they may well decide that the T&C are unfair and still dismiss the case the company brought in front of the judge. They could decide in favour of the company and then fine them for refusing to provide a copy or for them being unfair as well, plus order them to pay compensation to the other party.
Though I use the example of a judge deciding it is not a criminal matter judges preside over non criminal matters as well.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Old passes checked
Val Thorens/3valleys (France) - nothing in English regarding terms and conditions or transferability. I think if I could read French properly it says in French that the pass is subject to conditions displayed in the purchasing location (or words to that effect. There is nothing to suggest if these 'conditions' would be display in more languages than French. Nothing to suggest that these conditions would cover transferrability or otherwise
Paradiski (France) - Instructions on pass in English and French that use of the pass is in compliance with terms and conditions as displayed in the purchasing location. Given the dual language on the pass I would assume that these would also be displayed in both languages. Nothing to suggest that these conditions would cover transferrability or otherwise
Ski Amade (Austria) - clear instructions in English and I assume German on the pass that it is subject to conditions as displayed in the purchasing location AND that it not transferrable. <<< No doubts with this one!!
It does beg the question that if you buy a ski pass for someone else how they also get to read the T+C's without visiting the purchasing location specially to do so. Maybe the resorts should hand over a flyer with T&C's on if the pass does not contain brief details (like the Ski Amade one does)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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speed098, jinx on the cross posting.
btw when does an on the face of it contract isuue become a criminal one? When I think about it the rail network uses the police to enforce fare dodging and in the UK even has their own 'force' to call on.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
speed098, jinx on the cross posting.
btw when does an on the face of it contract isuue become a criminal one? When I think about it the rail network uses the police to enforce fare dodging and in the UK even has their own 'force' to call on. |
That is different because NO ! money has been paid for the service. If I bought a train ticket with reserved seating etc I could use it my son could use it my wife or daughter could and NO criminal law has been breached.
Now if I bought two tickets one for me and one for my daughter ( still a minor ) and her ticket was at a child rate then took my wife instead even though a ticket for that seat has been purchased it is not for the relevant group ie in this case it would have had to have been an adult ( the exception to this is two adult tickets and one adult one child going). If the train company said buy ten return tickets when I went to purchase two adult tickets and you get them for the price of 9 I do not have to use the tickets with just my wife I could go with a friend or my wife could go with a friend the rail police would not arrest you as it is a valid ticket.
The lift pass case is for an adult using an adult pass and no matter what the company want you to believe it is not a criminal matter as the same fee is due. the fact they offer a discount for multiple days is not part of the discussion as that is irrelevant it is the company trying to entice you to buy a longer pass.
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midgetbiker,
cross posts are fine
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| espri wrote: |
Looking at a pile of passes that I have here (6 from the past couple of years, 2 day tickets and the others for longer periods), I see only one (a day ticket from the SkiWelt) that states clearly on it "Karte NICHT übertragbar!!!". It would seem to be a good idea for every resort to do that.
SKIDATA is a leading company providing ticketing services, at least in Austria but also worldwide, I think (their systems are also used in car parks, at concerts, etc.). You can read about the system on their website, including details of their 'Photo Compare' system. The description in the PDF file does say "All pictures taken on the current day will be available for matching" and "For each day, the first and last picture taken of individual cardhoders will be stored for future reference". Big Brother is watching you (also using tablet computers at the turn style, as I have seen in Saalbach). |
I wonder if that guy ever had an issue? I suppose we will never know.
Im not sure what comes up in Kitzbuhel. I know for certain SP phot appears, but I`m pretty certain, that ordinarily, your photograph isn't taken at the turnstile.
Ive certainly bought 12 day passes before and various guests have used them. Not by 2 different people on the same day I may add.
As Kitzbuhel has very few scanners on there turnstiles, ie you don't even have to show your passes on loads of them, I think they cant be photographing the guests as they go through. And long may it continue, its technology for techs sake really. As long as the appropriate pass is bought for the correct number of days wheres the issue. Other that previously stated, two people using it when 2 were required.
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Caveat Emptor sounds like a good one for the cocktail name thread.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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midgetbiker, anywhere I've skied in Europe has required pic for 6 day passes, since about 1985 ime.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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under a new name, well 100% CdMB have not, upto and including this season just gone. I guess you have a Gen de P annual card like myself, but have you not been with a visitor buying their 6day recently in Chx?
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just had a look at the CdMB site and anything upto a 9day consec or a 3day non-consec MBU pass does not need a pic.
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You know it makes sense.
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As an aside: seeing as i had the liftpass page up on my screen i looked for any info regards nontransferability.
Nothing on the pricing page i looked, nor the info page it linked to. There is mention of terms but it is not a link to those terms, nor could i see a link anywhere on the page or footer to the terms.
I don't doubt the terms are there on the site somewhere, but again my complaint is transparency.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think it was a 6 day pass I used in Tignes in Nov (though I may be wrong) and it also had no photo.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Paradski website says no pic unless over 10 days
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ha - I went to check the 3V pass and guess what
no mention of when a pic is needed, BUT
next year they have a 'duo pass' for two skiers to share!
you read it here first
clearly this thread has in the space of 24hrs made them add this new innovation
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Actually it was available throughout the past season and so Megamum has not in fact twisted there arm into it.
I am crestfallen.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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under a new name,
My L2A passes from 86 and 89 have photo's but they are the only ones. The Davos 91 has space for a photo but was not required but does have a signature.
No other has either but the Gstaad 90 does say non transferable but absolutely no way to check transfer even on same day but they are one day passes due to going end of March and wanting to ski other areas nearby dependant on snow conditions. Nevis range has all the stuff re non liability for loss injury but nothing about transfer and nothing on any of my Austrian passes from about early 80's to early 90's.
To be honest this is something that for a long time company's have wanted to stop (after all it increases their profits) but until technology caught up was either impossible or financially and time constraint to difficult to impose ( after all who will stand around while a lifty checks every single photo to face on every single pass ).
But IMO it is not fair T&C and my view will not change unless every lift company ensure that even after you get home any un-used days can be refunded or credited at the purchasers discretion as to which, because that same technology has to be used equally for the benefit of both parties.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The 3V page also had a clear link to 'conditions of use and sale', unfortunately this had very basic info and referred to 'general conditions' with no link to those.
Clearly in the 3V though the existence of the 'Duo Pass' implies that other passes are not to be shared, which nicely links back to the OP.
I really, really need to focus on this VAT return now 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
Actually it was available throughout the past season and so Megamum has not in fact twisted there arm into it.
I am crestfallen. |
Should we not just credit Megamum with convincing them anyway 
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| Quote: |
Your ski pass is strictly personal and non-transferable.
The purchase of a pass implies full knowledge and acceptance of the transport and safety rules as well as the 3 Vallées Liberty Terms & Conditions of Sale, Use and Subscription displayed in all ticket offices and available on internet: www.valthorens.com
All fraud will be sanctioned, and may result in the ski pass being cancelled. If the card is lost or stolen, the owner should immediately inform the sales service of the SETAM and the card will be blocked. |
Clear enough, I think and very easy to find on the website http://www.valthorens.com/winter-en/val-thorens/ski/skipass/3-vallees-liberty.572.html
Similarly at http://www.skipass-tignes.com/media/upload/CGU_STGM_EN.pdf you find a very clear explanation, ending in a highlighted warning that all passes except for the shortest period on the price schedule are strictly personal and non transferable.
I don't think any amount of huffing and puffing about "unfair terms" would cut any ice, given this very clear information.
I couldn't be bothered to google any more - I need my lunch - but I suspect such information is not as hard to find as some people have claimed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| feef wrote: |
You could equally argue that not paying for a parking ticket in an empty car park isn't doing anything wrong as it's not depriving the car park operator of revenue. It's not like you're preventing a paying customer from parking. |
Not really the same thing is it?
A pass was bought for 4 days and the owner was entitled to use it for 4 days, having a different person in the seat doesn't really reduce their revenue.
Having said that i do accept that its a breach of the contract the purchaser has with the lift company, although its a little unfair for the consumer. Perhaps the answer would be that the company accept returns on lift passes and offer a pro rata refund but i can see that that will never happen.
I wonder how many days are actually wasted on lift passes?
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I am pleased to see evidence of a dual use pass - it has obviously been seen as a move to encourage the attendance of families with very young children. I did not know it existed previous to reading it above.
Leading on from what I put above, I do wonder how many of the resorts think to provide muli-language information. Unfortunately a lot of us Brits lag behind the muti-language ability of our continental neighbours, and for many now adults this is difficult to overcome. I do have some degree of sympathy for anyone 'done' for not complying with T&C's that weren't available in a language they could understand (skiing in Japan must be a nightmare!). In this respect the difference with the passes that I put above is interesting. I have skied in Austria twice now and it is interesting that in Ski Amade the moment they realised my native language was English I was offered a lift map and local information in English and the pass by default carried carried English and German. It would be interesting to know if they offer a similar level of support to Native French speakers. The ski amade pass clearly states that the pass is not transferrable, it also finds room to state:
In case of misuse the pass will be withdrawn, that general T&C's and prices are displayed in lift pass offices and all lift stations! That the pass holder should look after their pass so 3rd parties don't have access, that refunds will be granted on production of a doctors note only, that there is no refund for lift closures, bad weather or natural disasters, it also states the piste closure times with the exception of floodlit pistes.
It says all the above more comprehensively that I have written above and finds room for all that in two languages - well done Ski Amade!
I'm not actually the rebel I appear to be. If I know a pass is not transferable I won't transfer it. However, if I am going to obey the rules I'd like them to be reasonable and clearly noted. To take the example of the three passes I've got access to - it is quite realistic to expect me to know that I can't transfer a ski-amade pass, less easy to know that the same thing applies to a 3V pass. I can't be the only holiday maker to not read all the small print displayed in a lift station when I'm eager to ski or booth with a queue of 50 behind me. It makes sense to put important stuff on the pass itself/on a piste map (which I'm sure most of us pour over at some point)/pinned to a gondola wall or cover of a chairlift. Important stuff seems to me all the bits that could innocently get you into bother and the ski 'etiquette' stuff. The Ski amade pass shows just how much data can be included. I wonder how all the cardboard lift pass stations get on?
NB. Putting information on the internet seems the default these days, and is fine if you a) realise that something may be an issue in the first place and go off with a determination to find the answer (i.e. who reads every bit of small print these days?), and b) have access to the internet - I bet there are still people skiing esp. those from an older generation than myself who are still not au fait with the internet.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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midgetbiker, haven't stood in a line in Cham for years. Never actually bought a week's pass for there, was always a day tripper until I started buying seasonally. Per CMB website it's 9 days and over.
speed098, Sauze D'oulx 1981 (I still have it!), E.K. 1984, La Clusaz 1986, PdS at least from 1988, Verbier 1991, Jungfrau (I think) 1992, etc. all did.
PdS had Skidata since at least 1988, albeit barcodes and not hands free in the beginning. I don't really think it's something that has a huge impact on revenues nor that keeps resort financiers awake nights.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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So basically you drive with bike through the red light Megamum, as I have never seen traffic light with billboard next to it, explaining I'm not allowed to drive through red light. Sorry I have no idea it's actually not allowed to bike through red light, as there's no explicit and visible explanation next to traffic light. And I picked bike because for bike you don't go to driving school, just in case someone would go into that 
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jogi, That's what the highway code, which applies to all road users, is for I think.
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Your ski pass is strictly personal and non-transferable.
The purchase of a pass implies full knowledge and acceptance of the transport and safety rules as well as the 3 Vallées Liberty Terms & Conditions of Sale, Use and Subscription displayed in all ticket offices and available on internet: www.valthorens.com
All fraud will be sanctioned, and may result in the ski pass being cancelled. If the card is lost or stolen, the owner should immediately inform the sales service of the SETAM and the card will be blocked. |
Clear enough, I think and very easy to find on the website http://www.valthorens.com/winter-en/val-thorens/ski/skipass/3-vallees-liberty.572.html
Similarly at http://www.skipass-tignes.com/media/upload/CGU_STGM_EN.pdf you find a very clear explanation, ending in a highlighted warning that all passes except for the shortest period on the price schedule are strictly personal and non transferable.
I don't think any amount of huffing and puffing about "unfair terms" would cut any ice, given this very clear information.
I couldn't be bothered to google any more - I need my lunch - but I suspect such information is not as hard to find as some people have claimed. |
yes quite clear but it has flaws they can not state that purchase implies full knowledge, as it does not, and even full knowledge does not make unfair T&C enforceable. You may have purchased as part of a package from a tour operator for instance.
"All FRAUD ! will be sanctioned and MAY ! result in the ski pass being cancelled "
In other words they know they can not legally impose this but still try and impose this on people less informed of their rights and get away with it more times than not.
As I have said numerous times it is NOT FRUAD ! the purchase price has been paid at the going rate they have said needs to be paid for an adult (discount for multiple days is irrelevant to this matter). By using words that people know as criminal they try and scare even bully you into giving up your rights, this is common tactics from many company's and people need to realise this and stand their ground. I accept they don't want you sharing a pass or transferring it I do not blame them for trying to stop it after all they are in the business of making money but laws are there to protect members of the public from being ripped off and laws are all that matters in the end which include not just the criminal laws they threaten ( most times incorrectly ) but also contractual laws they do not want you to know about.
These company's like huffing and puffing it is std company policy, and their company policy for you me and any member of the public is about as useful as secondhand toilet roll Though pam w I do love the cutting any ice bit
You could argue more strongly that someone who gets up at 2am walks to the very top skis offpiste till they reach the pisted runs and uses said runs back is defrauding the resort as it costs money to piste said runs but I don't think any resort would every try pulling that one on a skier or snowboarder etc.
My statement re PPI shows how company's work how many were told "you have to take out our insurance" etc or told they needed insurance when in fact the policy would not cover them anyway. THEY lied ! if people want to trust a company blindly that is their choice I prefer to question them and challenge them if I feel it is right to do so.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, exactly.. but how should I know that, if there's no clear sign next to traffic light?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Megamum wrote: |
I'm not actually the rebel I appear to be. If I know a pass is not transferable I won't transfer it. However, if I am going to obey the rules I'd like them to be reasonable and clearly noted. To take the example of the three passes I've got access to - it is quite realistic to expect me to know that I can't transfer a ski-amade pass, less easy to know that the same thing applies to a 3V pass. I can't be the only holiday maker to not read all the small print displayed in a lift station when I'm eager to ski or booth with a queue of 50 behind me. It makes sense to put important stuff on the pass itself/on a piste map (which I'm sure most of us pour over at some point)/pinned to a gondola wall or cover of a chairlift. Important stuff seems to me all the bits that could innocently get you into bother and the ski 'etiquette' stuff. The Ski amade pass shows just how much data can be included. I wonder how all the cardboard lift pass stations get on?
NB. Putting information on the internet seems the default these days, and is fine if you a) realise that something may be an issue in the first place and go off with a determination to find the answer (i.e. who reads every bit of small print these days?), and b) have access to the internet - I bet there are still people skiing esp. those from an older generation than myself who are still not au fait with the internet. |
equally, I tend to err on the side of caution and would assume non-transferability, so would seek out clarification even if it involved asking someone at the ticket office.
As in so many things in life, if in doubt, ask.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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speed098, I'd like to be a listening marmotte on the day you decide to try out your theory on a French or Austrian lift pass inspector.
Megamum, here you go http://www.s3v.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/CGVU-GB.pdf
very easy to find in my view - and if you google "ski pass non transferable" you get pages of similar stuff from resorts all over the shop. In English.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, best get in touch with 3V, they have clearly mis-understood your idea 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
if you google "ski pass non transferable" you get pages of similar stuff from resorts all over the shop. In English.
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If you google 'engine swap on a Morris Minor' you will get loads of stuff on that (in English) doesn't mean most folk would know how to do it!
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 8-05-14 14:35; edited 1 time in total
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I'm just doing this to ease the tedium of VAT now 
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I think resorts are missing out on a fantastic marketing/publicity ploy here.
Imagine if you say a couple bought a 12 day pass each one ski's every day other only ski's for 6 days.
You get home and soon after get an email from the resort/lift company.
"Thankyou for choosing to visit XXXXXX we hope you really enjoyed your time and would love to welcome you back. We note that one pass was only used for 6 days and we have kept your details on our system and if you book to visit us again within the next 2-3 seasons we would love to credit these days to a liftpass purchase by either of you.
We have included a survey link with this email and if you can find the time to complete this and help us ensure we always provide the best service if one of you only buys a 6 day pass we would not charge the nominal admin fee for producing the pass, ( this would not be charged if extra days are purchased on the pass )".
Now maybe this is wishful thinking but being proactive and positive is far nicer than making threats and leaving people out of pocket.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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speed098, I got a letter last year noting, and regretting, the fact that I'd suffered an accident at the resort, hoping I'd return and offering me a free day's lift pass.
If you want to ski for 3 days buy a 3 day pass. You generally don't save a huge amount on the daily rate for buying longer duration passes and now that many can be recharged online the problem of queues at the lift pass office isn't a big deal either. I really think you are inventing problems. Anyone would think skiers were the most screwed and exploited consumers on the planet.
Certain insurance policies will refund lift pass (and lesson) costs if you are prevented from skiing for some good reason.
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| pam w wrote: |
speed098, I'd like to be a listening marmotte on the day you decide to try out your theory on a French or Austrian lift pass inspector.
Megamum, here you go http://www.s3v.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/CGVU-GB.pdf
very easy to find in my view - and if you google "ski pass non transferable" you get pages of similar stuff from resorts all over the shop. In English. |
Facts re law and corporate law are not theory they are fact just google these and see but sorry if you do not see how company's try to do this stuff even after high publicity cases such as PPI then I don't know what to say to you. I am happy to challenge any company who's T&C are unfair and equally happy to apologise to an individual or company if I do something wrong. It is a shame too many company's do not do the same.
All links re the resorts own website for lift passes are irrelevant if you buy via a tour operator as a package and also links should be very clear and easy to find.
It is not hard to put say a capitol "T" or "NT" next to each and every pass option and clearly state that "T" means Transferable and "NT" means non transferable or colour code them. Would love to see the IT tech for the lift company explain in court why this is impossible to do.
Many keep saying how it is our responsibility to look for to find to ask re T&C but the company are equally if not more so responsible for making it clear and the T&C easy to find and understand. Even then if a court decide they are unfair the T&C are not enforceable.
Please read my previous post re email and crediting and ask is this not a much better option that can actually make people come back potentially year after year.
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FAQ
