Megamum, I tried to explain the reference (which I think you picked up from Greg's video) using straightforward language, free of jargon and a photo which I think illustrates it very clearly. Despite this you said you needed to do a Google search to find out what the term meant. Obviously this is a concern to me if I can't explain the concept using plain language and images. You then hit the Bingo Button when the word angulation was introduced. If you understand the word angulation did my explanation and photo not make any sense? I hope you can understand my perplexedness (is that a real word?)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
Megamum, so you understand the word "angulation" but you didn't understand the phrase "the legs are at a different angle to the body" and its accompanying photograph? Genuinely perplexed! Makes me wonder why I bother.
When people mentioned lateral separation I wondered exactly what was being separated from what. I thought it probably meant the separation of the base of support from the centre of mass (skis out to the side). My second guess would have been the separation of the left ski from the right ski. I would never have guessed in a million years that it meant the same as angulation. The, um, lateral separation of the angle of the body from angle of the legs. Two things which are normally considered above and below each other. I share your confusion Megamum. Come on BASI, you can do better than this.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar, I think I was still looking for it to be something different to other terms that I was already aware of. Hence, although you had said it was the legs being at a different angle to the body I was then thinking well how is that lateral separation when that different angulation in the body is something that I already understood by another terms. However, as the thread progressed I came to the conclusion that all these terms seem part and parcel of the same need to separate the upper and lower body and that all these terms seem to be different variations on this. Skimottaret's final comment about it being the same as another term that I knew 'angulation' just confirmed what I was already suspecting.
I have no idea if it's a BASI term or not. It's commonly used in discussion between instructors as far as I can tell, but you'd hope that an instructor would only use the term with a client if they were certain that the client understood it. But that's not not an unusual concept, there are all sorts of technical terms which shouldn't be used with clients but function perfectly well as a shorthand between people familiar with the language and the concepts. And that applies to all sorts of activity, not just skiing.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I don't think Basi invented skiing, the concepts or the terminology. The terms can be useful shorthand but I've always had it explained to me in terms of what I should be doing so the terminology is largely irrelevant to actually improving my skiing.
I have no idea if it's a BASI term or not. It's commonly used in discussion between instructors as far as I can tell, but you'd hope that an instructor would only use the term with a client if they were certain that the client understood it. But that's not not an unusual concept, there are all sorts of technical terms which shouldn't be used with clients but function perfectly well as a shorthand between people familiar with the language and the concepts. And that applies to all sorts of activity, not just skiing.
- I agree that many activities come up with new buzzwords. This is rarely a good thing.
- Trainers shouldn't resort to buzzwords. If they use them how can they expect their students not to use them in their lessons? I know you are good enough not to use them but hundreds of instructors who come off the production line aren't. I had a middle aged lady come up to me after one day of skiing and say "my instructor says I need to work on my upper lower body separation" with a look of panic in her eye. Trainers need to set a good example.
- Lateral separation = angulation. Never heard of that before so I assumed it was BASI. The only reference my limited Google skills came up with was:
Quote:
Such extreme edge angles require rather large lateral separation between inside and outside feet
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
TTT wrote:
I don't think Basi invented skiing, the concepts or the terminology. The terms can be useful shorthand but I've always had it explained to me in terms of what I should be doing so the terminology is largely irrelevant to actually improving my skiing.
Unfortunately BASI, PSIA, CSIA etc. seem to come up with new jargon and buzzwords on an annual basis. It gets passed down from on high to the the ski schools who pass it on to the instructors and eventually it makes its way to the poor unsuspecting punters. It's all about being able to show off new and interesting ways of confusing people at Interski.
Note: Some of this post is, ever so slightly, an exaggeration but there is a nugget of truth buried in there .
After all it is free
After all it is free
Kenny, on my L3 Teaching assessment one of the candidates got slammed for excessively technical language in a couple of his demo lessons, by the Trainer and fellow candidates. My experience is probably the opposite of your nugget of truth - every Trainer I've worked has with emphasised the need for language which is easily understood and precise. Technical shorthand can be very precise and concise (which is why it develops), but only if there is a shared understanding. The confusion in this thread shows what happens if there is not a shared understanding.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rob@rar wrote:
Kenny, on my L3 Teaching assessment one of the candidates got slammed for excessively technical language in a couple of his demo lessons, by the Trainer and fellow candidates. My experience is probably the opposite of your nugget of truth - every Trainer I've worked has with emphasised the need for language which is easily understood and precise. Technical shorthand can be very precise and concise (which is why it develops), but only if there is a shared understanding. The confusion in this thread shows what happens if there is not a shared understanding.
That's good to hear. One of the top Canadian coaches told me "the more I do this the more I understand the need to never miss an opportunity to shut the f*ck up" .
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Kenny wrote:
One of the top Canadian coaches told me "the more I do this the more I understand the need to never miss an opportunity to shut the f*ck up" .
That's the voice of experience speaking!
As I've got more experience of teaching I've realised that less is definitely more. I'm not constantly doing demos, I'm not constantly giving feedback, I'm not trying to deal with every little weakness that I see. I probably still talk too much, but I'm trying to get better at that. The consequence of that is you need to hone in on the most important aspect of what you are trying to change, but I think that's the way clients make more progress. Decide what's important, make sure the client knows what they are working towards, then get out of their way (but keep an close eye on what they are doing).
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
I'm not constantly giving feedback
Constant feedback about "every little weakness" is demoralising and pointless. I think your ability to give comprehensible and relevant feedback is one of your strongest points as a teacher, rob@rar - one I think you share with easiski. During the "on2off" course she kept reminding me about my ankles and my uphill arm even though plenty of other things were wrong.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
My experience is that people need less input than they think. Keep it Short and Simple is a fundamental basi teaching principle - I think it takes considerable skill and experience to do this which I don't have but I consciously try and limit any comments to friends to the basics and only when requested as I think I'm at the stage that a little knowledge is dangerous.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Megamum, ok, been away cycling in the beautiful Yorkshire Dales and my threads been hijacked!!
Lateral seperation, is as per Robs description and my and his picture your upper body is still your legs angle out from your body BUT YOU HAVE NOT ROTATED YOUR FEET, otherwise you will skid...
Rotational seperation is what you do in short turns, your upper body is still, facing down the hill, your legs still angle out from your body, but you ROTATE from the hips. This can cause some skidding.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
kitenski, apologies for the hijack. However, your explanations, which refer to an actual difference between the two forms of separation, are very clear - thank you.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
However, your explanations, which refer to an actual difference between the two forms of separation, are very clear
you can, of course, be both angulated and rotated.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
pam w, Stirrer
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
pam w, yes, but from kitenski's, explanation I would guess that come under rotational separation - he uses the word 'still' twice in the second explanation suggesting that in rotational separation angulation 'still' occurs, but the hips are rotating too.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Megamum wrote:
pam w, yes, but from kitenski's, explanation I would guess that come under rotational separation - he uses the word 'still' twice in the second explanation suggesting that in rotational separation angulation 'still' occurs, but the hips are rotating too.
I think you are referring to longitudinal separation here.
kitenski, some of us getting pulled up this week on our lack of rotational separation in longs, inc. me, and this also needs to be evident in non skidded turns we demo. Separation above the hips is important in that case.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
balernoStu, interesting, can you expand a bit?? Lateral separation is harped on about a lot in longs in BASI land...
Did they not mean that you need to seperate at your hips and have your legs at a different angle to your upper body?? If you start twisting your hips in a long turn you'll be in danger of skidding...
Hmm, sat on my chair trying some things out and I guess I can see it now!!
After all it is free
After all it is free
In Performance skiing Lateral sep is important in longs AS WELL AS rotational sep as the turn progresses. Trying to keep it simple .. You are completing a long radius turn, as you release and flatten the skis your CoM should be over your feet, you then start to set up and find the new outside edge by progressively inclining into the turn, not overdoing it and getting to far inside, at the point when more inclination would reduce pressure on the outside ski you add in lateral separation. As the lateral separation and edge angles increase so does the rotational separation and a bit of hip counter naturally occurs due to your shins being constrained at a forward lean angle within the boot .
The line of momentum dictates how much rotational sep you should employ... If you are in a downhill race making huge radius turns no rotational sep needed, if you are doing GS turns (longs in basi speak) your body is travelling a different path to your skis and some rotational sep is advantagous, if you are doing shorts down a narrow corridor a large amount and if doing braquage with the body is going straight down the hill a huge amount of rotational sep.
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Pedantica wrote:
Nnnggghhhhhhhh
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Quote:
That's the voice of experience speaking!
As I've got more experience of teaching I've realised that less is definitely more. I'm not constantly doing demos, I'm not constantly giving feedback, I'm not trying to deal with every little weakness that I see. I probably still talk too much, but I'm trying to get better at that.
This weekend I've been teaching my kids and cousins a bit of dingy sailing and giving my son a little cricket "coaching" in the garden. I realised I was talking far too much about too many different things - realising this is one thing but properly disengaging my mouth is another entirely!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
kitenski, it is easier to feel it standing up Maybe try this:
1. Stand with hands on hips. Point both big toes left, and then right, but don't allow hips to move at all. Rotational separation is achieved by the femur rotating in the hip socket. Same as braquage.
2. Fold arms across chest, then do the left/right toe pointing without the arms moving, but allow the hips to follow toes. Rot. sep. is mostly at the waist.
3. Keep the arms folded across the chest, look at a fixed point at the wall and do the left/right toe thing, allowing the chest to follow round but keeping the head still. The neck provides the separation in this case.
For both 2 and 3 a significant twist may be felt in the body. This twist can really help initiate the next turn.
As Skimottaret has already said both types are important, but the coach last week said no-one in the group is significantly lacking lateral sep, so not been a big focus for us.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
balernoStu wrote:
no-one in the group is significantly lacking lateral sep, so not been a big focus for us.
Best drills for clients who are significantly lacking "lateral sep"?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
miranda, Aeroplane drill is a good one to get you started.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
kitenski wrote:
If you start twisting your hips in a long turn you'll be in danger of skidding...
Which movement pattern do you feel will cause skidding ?
I use method 2 that balernoStu describes for rotational separation for short and long turns. I did wonder whether BASI felt that most students didn't have the core strength to do this so were teaching other things.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
miranda, hope you don't mind me leaving that one for the more expert technique writers on here, in part cos I'm struggling a bit to compose with a 3.3" touchscreen at the moment. Maybe kitenski can fill us in with the latest approach from the L2 course?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
balernoStu, thanks, I am familiar with the differences!
miranda, one thing we did was sit down on the snow to feel the position. So sit down on a slope, not on the flat, legs below you and fairly wide, outside leg almost straight, inside leg bent alot, hip on the snow, body upright - that is the position you need for lateral seperation for performance long turns
Once you can feel that position then another drill I remember as swords. . Outside pole drags in the snow, inside one points straight up, swop on turn, and feel the "pinch" at your waist/core muscles. Try and make sure the outside pole stays in line with the boots and doesn't fall backwards as this could make you sit back...
rjs, if you rotate at the start of a long turn, rather than edge and be patient you will skid, it's a habit it's taken me over a year to break! about 15s onwards in my longs video you can see a skid at the start of my turn.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
kitenski wrote:
rjs, if you rotate at the start of a long turn, rather than edge and be patient you will skid, it's a habit it's taken me over a year to break! about 15s onwards in my longs video you can see a skid at the start of my turn.
Doesn't it depend on how much you rotate?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Mosha Marc, I'd say any rotation at the start of the turn will introduce some skid to the ski, the amount of skid would depend on the amount of criteria. However any skid would fail the 1st criteria
BASI L2 turn "pass criteria" is
Perform cleanly carved turns on a blue piste.
Show a variety of turn radii.
Use effective posture and balance.
kitenski, Rotation of the skis will make them skid, what I'm doing by keeping my pelvis square to the skis is minimizing any rotational forces on them as I extend or flex my legs.
I thought you meant rotation of the pelvis and not the ski; I must have thought I was on the "Counter...." thread for a minute - sorry.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Mosha Marc wrote:
I thought you meant rotation of the pelvis and not the ski; I must have thought I was on the "Counter...." thread for a minute - sorry.
I do mean rotation of the pelvis, that is what balernoStu describes above.
I don't like using the term "counter" by itself, I don't feel it captures just how much you need to rotate to "keep up" with the skis as they turn.
After all it is free
After all it is free
kitenski wrote:
balernoStu, thanks, I am familiar with the differences!
Ok, maybe I misunderstood your earlier 'expand a bit' question. I've been working to use more of 2 and 3 in that list, instead of depending too much on 1 from years on straight skis.
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miranda, good stuff from kitenski above. If you're interested in an exercise to do off snow I reckon the Side Plank activates some of the muscles required to make these moves effective on snow.
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Quote:
Outside pole drags in the snow, inside one points straight up, swop on turn
when I did that drill we were told to hold the outside pole out with a straight arm and stretch it as far out as possible.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
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That's the voice of experience speaking!
