Masque, jimmer wrote what the rest of us were thinking. You're the one that's full of crap.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
jimmer,
said
Quote:
So you really think that no-one in this thread understands what a steered turn is?
Well, on the basis of the evidence of the previous set of posts no-one seemed to be talking about the type of turn that I had referred to, so I did wonder if everyone understood the type of turn I was on about
Quote:
Can you carve a turn? If not, why would you not understand that they are harder to do than a steered turn, which I assume you can do?
Yes, on easy terrain I can knock out the odd carved turn. I think they are harder to link together consistently, but I am not convinced that they are significantly harder than the steered turns. It seems with carved turns once you get the skis on their edges and can maintain them on the same curve and an even distance apart that the turn just happens - in fact that is how they are initially taught isn't it?: i.e. Run the skis down the hill then edge both equally and the carved turn happens making two non-scuffed rail lines in the snow if you get it right - yes? You don't have to move your foot through the turn at just the right sort of rate to get the turn the right shape do you? I think that the steered turn requires just as much precision and accuracy as a carved one does and possibly a bit more effort to achieve.
Quote:
Carved turns are not only at the radius of the ski, incline more and the ski bends more and makes a tighter arc.
OK, Ill give you that.
However, I don't think there was any need for sarcasm was there?
Well, on the basis of the evidence of the previous set of posts no-one seemed to be talking about the type of turn that I had referred to
Well maybe you didn't describe them properly? Seems to me you're just trying to compare grippy, smooth, rounded skid turns with carving. On the blue and red gradients you're skiing on, carving is harder because it's a higher level skill. On a black, grippy, rounded short turns are difficult but possible, carving close to impossible for most skiers.
Quote:
Yes, on easy terrain I can knock out the odd carved turn.
Having watched your "woodentop" video with the stem at the start of all your turns, I rather doubt that.
Frankly, I find the whole concept of a rank intermediate posting on BZK and questioning whether a full-time ISIA instructor/trainer and freeride competitor knows what he's talking about (which is what I believe jimmer is) ridiculous.
Are you just trolling again? Or are you secretly hoping everyone will say "steered" turns are harder so you can justify your own inability to ski at the speed and skill level required to carve effectively?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Megamum, Are you sure you are not describing a simple carved arc and not an actual turn from one direction to another without skidding or pivoting the ski?
Raceplate, the internet is a blind forum, I don't know who most people are - all I know is that the turns posted in that racing video had no resemblance to the turns I was talking about and that video is what everyone was discussing.
Avalanche Poodle, it is possible, but I think there is more going on with what I've been trying to do than a carved turn. However, thank you for the suggestion
However, clearly I know nothing and have no business posting here (unlike some folks that get allowed tens of pages at a time ), so maybe I'll just sod off and not open this thread again. Nothing to see here folks, and no need to open this thread or post again because I'm not going to do so. Unless of course you want to continue to argue the subject amongst yourselves or bemoan yet another perceived Megamum flounceo (which is my prediction), but I'm sorry I'm not going accused of being insulting when that is not the case. Just let this thread fall off the first page and I'll go back to posting in après which is clearly the only place I am welcome.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Megamum,
Quote:
the internet is a blind forum, I don't know who most people are
Megamum, You know what, I have some sympathy for you. I can carve, etc, and mix and match what I do and when I do to suit conditions, how tired I am or just for the fun of it.
I don't however really have much idea of exactly what I am doing. I have always struggled if I over analysed what I am doing. I used to play golf ( I know, what was I thinking ). I could drive straight and true 300 yards no bother. Then I had some lessons and I started slicing. I was a decent rugby player, but I couldn't really tell you why.
My advice is just enjoy what you are doing and leave the anal-isis to those that are into that kind of thing, but if you want to pick up new skills, book a private lesson or two specifically for the skill you want to learn. See you in apres
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Megamum, FWIW you should stick around and ask questions but expecting things to stay rigidly on topic seems unlikely... this is the Internet!
On the topic IMO:
- Bad steered turns require little skill.
- Basic steered turns require a little skill.
- Basic carving requires quite a lot of skill.
- Good steered turns require a lot of skill.
- Good carving requires even more skill.
- Blending it all together in order to do things like the stivot is on the lots and lots of skill end of things.
IMO there is a bit of overlap for want of a better way of thinking about it but as is noted in the thread people don't typically carve a lot of the stuff they ski because it's technically harder and when done at speed physically harder.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
meh, +1
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I'd hate to "steer" things up again but WTF here's some graceful "steering" along with a hint of extension and absorption. Was this the sort of steering that the thread was about? http://youtube.com/v/yIhw0z1d1ko
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
thecramps wrote:
Megamum, You know what, I have some sympathy for you. I can carve, etc, and mix and match what I do and when I do to suit conditions, how tired I am or just for the fun of it.
I don't however really have much idea of exactly what I am doing. I have always struggled if I over analysed what I am doing. I used to play golf ( I know, what was I thinking ). I could drive straight and true 300 yards no bother. Then I had some lessons and I started slicing. I was a decent rugby player, but I couldn't really tell you why.
My advice is just enjoy what you are doing and leave the anal-isis to those that are into that kind of thing, but if you want to pick up new skills, book a private lesson or two specifically for the skill you want to learn. See you in apres
Amen!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Megamum, I don't think I was sarcastic at any point? Sorry if it was taken that way. I was just a little exasperated that in a thread of people participating in a debate you asked for, you ignored what everyone was saying and told us we just didn't understand the question. I don't really mind if you think that a steered turn is harder than a carved turn, but please don't get offended when you ask a question and I answer it.
Masque Oh really? Thanks for contributing that gem to the debate.
Kenny, Weird, pause the vid at 1.47 and you'll see railroad tracks behind the skier, not saying I don't believe you, just that it seems inconsistent for the CSIA to be anti carving when they put out so many videos featuring good carving.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Got to say I expected a bigger response to my post, but I suppose a little creeping from jimmer is as good as it gets.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Megamum, don't berate yourself too much. You asked a question in the "Technique tips and ski school recommendations" section using terms your instructor had used. I am by no means an instructor (I tend to treat the hill as I treat the pub... I don't want to work in either, they are for pleasure only, thank god for bar staff and ski instructors), and there is a glut of expert information here, thankfully. Glean what you choose, but don't throw the toys out the pram when you hear the unexpected.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
dode, don't think she did, she just came under fire and flame from anal-ists
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
Handy Turnip, when the turn has a dominant element of rotation (twisting the ski rather than only edging it). Most turns have at least some rotational steering, other than cleanly carved turns.
So this thread is about almost any turn that is not a pure carved turn. (It's also not about a turn which isn't a pure carved turn but is a turn without any rotation. Not sure I can imagine what that turn might be, but then I'm no ski instructor.)
Isn't this thread therefore about going skiing as millions do?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
jimmer wrote:
Kenny, Weird, pause the vid at 1.47 and you'll see railroad tracks behind the skier, not saying I don't believe you, just that it seems inconsistent for the CSIA to be anti carving when they put out so many videos featuring good carving.
I think they look at other things like speed control and the side cut of the skis being used when making that call. If you turn up on slalom skis then you are going to have a hard time persuading them there is any steering going on!
Btw they look steered to me. The turn shape, speed and amount of spray make them look steered. They just don' look racerish. Fundamentally of course I know that the intent of the skier is to steer.
thecramps, I was creeping? Don't quite get what you mean.
Kenny, you are obviously the expert on CSIA here, I just find it weird that they would be against carving (or SL skis), and hypocritical given how much carving on slalom skis their demo team does. I'm also not planning on a move to Canada soon, so I'll keep on working on my carving!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
jimmer wrote:
thecramps, I was creeping? Don't quite get what you mean.
Kenny, you are obviously the expert on CSIA here, I just find it weird that they would be against carving (or SL skis), and hypocritical given how much carving on slalom skis their demo team does. I'm also not planning on a move to Canada soon, so I'll keep on working on my carving!
There are a lot of people in Canada who would agree with you. Anyone can do GS turns on slalom skis.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I actually quite like how Harb carves, but the guy is a prick.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
I actually quite like how Harb carves, but the guy is a prick.
Hi jimmer, if you know HH you also say he believes that a brushed turn is only a carved turn not edge-locked, maybe depending on skill and slope.
It's a different way from steering. I beleve in HH way of skiing..................is he a prick? I do not agree with your idea but you are not the only one who thinks so.
Can you tell me why? (I'm sorry my English is not that great)
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
sgarrozzo wrote:
Quote:
I actually quite like how Harb carves, but the guy is a prick.
Hi jimmer, if you know HH you also say he believes that a brushed turn is only a carved turn not edge-locked, maybe depending on skill and slope.
It's a different way from steering. I beleve in HH way of skiing..................is he a prick? I do not agree with your idea but you are not the only one who thinks so.
Can you tell me why? (I'm sorry my English is not that great)
Sorry, was feeling like trolling this morning. Yeah I think the guy is obnoxious, his marketing style is to trash everyone else whilst exaggerating his own skills. He would have people believe that the only way to be a good skier is to buy his books and be trained by him. It's pretty funny reading his forum because I am sure that a lot of people on there are very mediocre skiers, but because they buy into PMTS they feel like they can look down on anyone who doesn't ski the 'correct' way, which often includes very successful racers, instructors etc.
As I said, I actually agree with some of his ideas about skiing, but they're incredibly specific, good for SL and GS turns and not much else.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
it has no absolute truth, I agree with you
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
under a new name, Raceplate, Let's take it step by step for those that aren't you . . .
So you really think that no-one in this thread understands what a steered turn is?
There are plenty who don't; People who have come to skiing by the self fail method or the 'do what I do instructor', taught by friends and peers, people who have skied for years and ski well yet haven't a clue to the lexicon of what they do . . . or even care for that matter. There will also be many people who will look at this thread with desire to learn or understand that vocabulary and apply it to their skiing and/or their lessons. Just 'cos you think that everyone knows what you do is . . . well, others can apply their own epithet
Can you carve a turn? If not, why would you not understand that they are harder to do than a steered turn, which I assume you can do?
So a carved turn is harder than a steered turn is it? You could have at least added just a wee bit of justification for that little steamer. The OP is an early Intermediate who loves skiing and the sensations it brings, she may not be a 'natural' but she is enthusiastic and works very hard to improve her skills. She is also highly analytical and a harsh judge of her own abilities. If you had followed her progress in the forum on even a casual basis you might have phrased your questions in a less 'judgemental' way?
But while we're on the subject of steering turns and carving turns and their respective "hardness", hmmmm interesting that is [/yoda]
People come to skiing from all sorts of backgrounds and all sorts of sporting history, some of which include edges, angulation, centripetal forces and speed. The human body is a wonderful thing, it can autonomously remember and apply old muscle and mental skills to new circumstances and I know half a dozen skiers who were 'natural' carving skiers and who like me, coming from snowboarding, have had to learn to steer turn. The level of difficulty or hardness in learning and consistently applying the myriad of techniques 'steering' skis for some will be far greater than 'inclining a ski to bend it'. The individual and their instruction defines the hardness of learning any technique and not some arbitrary comment on a website.
Carved turns are not only at the radius of the ski, incline more and the ski bends more and makes a tighter arc.
Aha! Physics . . . Wunderbra(sic) I really should hope that you were joking when you posted that . . . but I doubt it The worst of your comment is that I'm certain that you both know it's so simplistic as to be meaningless and misleading. Edit: I'll give you that it is difficult to explain in simple terms but that doesn't let you off the hook for saying summat so vapid.
So, I'll write this from a far less lofty position than yours . . . Every turn, from the ski's point of view, begins with pressure on one edge or the other. The sidecut of the ski creates a pressure curve along that edge from high to low to high again. Given that the front of the ski is the widest point then when an edge is pressured more force is generated where the front of the ski meets the snow*
*Snow, the biggest variable in all of this is what defines the techniques we have to apply whether steered, carved or a combination. A race piste or hard crust is very different than a couple of inches of nice grippy stuff and very different than 12 inches of powder . . . then there's late season sugar slush . . . oh and everything in between. All of these have differing effects on the skis and techniques. And we've already ignored slope pitch but for this purpose just leave it at constant smooth blue.
Back on the pony; 'Sidecut' can be constant, parabolic, asymmetric or even multi radius(i) all of them do roughly the same thing, provide a leading 'pressure' (not going down the pedant nomenclature argument) point and allows the ski to bend. The size and shape of the sidecut bite in regard to both the width and length of the ski has a big influence on what happens next. You can read Ted Liggerty's blog to get his thoughts on the FIS for the new rules on racing ski shapes and how it has affected GS and DH technique and safety. But let's not forget two other major parts of bending a ski . . . its flex and its torsional rigidity . . . forget the last one for the sake of this argument but flex is a big part in allowing a ski to carve.
That first point of contact with the snow is where it all begins. It both defines and restricts the radius of a turn. To all intents and purposes skis behave just like front wheel drive cars, you can create oversteer by letting the rear skid out, or understeer by pushing too hard and releasing the leading edge letting the nose of the skis wash away (and all situations in between)
Here we're talking about carving, where a ski(s) travels along and leaves a clear, clean, cut in the snow surface for the length of the turn that you decide. That could be a complete turn or just a part. For some reason people think you need edges like razor-blades to do this. Fresh edges are highly appreciated on race prep'd pistes and frozen crust but for most of the conditions we slide around on it's not going to make much difference if your edges haven't seen a file for a week or three . . . or even 10 in the case of my old Nomads . . . but back on point . . .
For most of its length a carving ski doesn't really “carve” anything, it runs flat along a track created by that first point of contact and the flex in the next 250mm or so of ski. This is where the shape of the sidecut plays its part, a short radius ski has a 'sharper', more concentrated point of contact and long radii skis cannot exert the same force. Imagine pressing the tip of a carving knife into a piece of wood and then compare that to the cut left when pressing with the same force with the belly of the knife.
The contact point of the ski cuts into the snow surface and the flex of the ski behind it is what creates the turn shape. The sidecut is what allows the ski to follow that turn shape without breaking out of the cut track and if the cut is shallow with the sidecut the same the ski will not stay in a carve but just wash away in a skid.
Just inclining a ski is no guarantee that a turn will tighten and with some skis and/or a hard surface will just result in you landing on your ear as the nose fails to cut a track or the tail of the ski washes out of it. You can also add that a ski will bend only so far as snow will compress. If the initial cut is set at high pressure . . . really driving the carve, which has not been added to this description . . . then no matter how much you incline the ski the turn radius will not tighten but the track will disintegrate as the force vector overcomes the internal binding structure of the compressed snow.
It really burns me that people who do know how its done, belittle people who are looking to learn, by posting quite frankly smug crap without any justification for their POV . . . so I respond in kind.
Steered turns and carved turns are both complex balancing of many variables. People are just the same you cannot say that one is easier than the other without either admitting you're a smug git or you don't know what you're talking about . . . that later I don't believe, but I think you're being lazy.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Masque,
1/ I think you'll find that the comment regarding ski inclination was written by jimmer so you might like to address your comments to the correct person.
2/ Didn't I read somewhere that you're doing PSIA 1 this year and teaching? I sincerely hope you come up with a simpler explanation of how a ski works than that 'cause you're going to confuse the hell out of your pupils.
3/ Carving is universally accepted as an advanced skill and a key differentiator between an upper intermediate and an advanced/expert skier. Therefore carved turns are harder than steered turns. Disagree if you wish but I don't think you'll find many allies.
4/ This is BZK, a forum for Instructors. If people who are not Instructors post on here and then question whether Instructors understand skiing terminology, it's hardly surprising that they get shot down is it?
5/ I do hope you find my response reasonable and courteous. I could of course have been as courteous as you are and just written:
Quote:
Well that's a delightfully steaming pile of crap
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Raceplate,
1/ you weighed in
2/ If you have a simpler explanation, I'm sure we would all be enlightened and I will have a much better chance of passing . . . you did note that I was was not trying to tell anyone HOW to carve?
3/ just because something is said doesn't make it so. Teaching practices change all the time. I won't argue that there is a clear difference in technique between steering and carving but the only thing that places it as an advanced skill is its position in the curriculum for the teaching methods. That doesn't necessarily mean its harder, it just puts it within a stated progression. You confuse difficulty with established practice and we have all seen how much that has changed even in the near past. I don't ask for allies, I simply state that all people are different and we have the ability to learn in different ways. Have you never considered that the way skiing is taught may be counter productive for some people?
4/ No BZK is not a forum for instructors it is an open forum for discussion and inclusion of all snowheads . . . and for that your response is neither reasonable nor courteous
5/ It is and was "a delightfully steaming pile of crap" from someone who knows better and if posted in as you put it "a forum for Instructors" . . . all the more stinking for that.
edit: Raceplate, for all that you think I'm long winded, am I incorrect?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Raceplate,
Quote:
BZK, a forum for Instructors
I don't think so, though making it so has been mooted in the past.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
The Flying Gooseberry wrote:
Raceplate,
Quote:
BZK, a forum for Instructors
I don't think so, though making it so has been mooted in the past.
Yep, my mistake by the look of things. It's a "technique" forum. Fair enough.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Masque, I can't be bothered arguing the inclination subject. Too much boring physics. All I know is it is generally accepted that inclination tightens turn radius. When I am on a tiny edge, railing, on a green path my skis go almost straight. When I crank them over at speed, they come round quickly. You can argue that at speed it's pressure plus inclination but effectively those two are inextricably linked so that's good enough proof for me.
Quote:
I won't argue that there is a clear difference in technique between steering and carving but the only thing that places it as an advanced skill is its position in the curriculum for the teaching methods. That doesn't necessarily mean its harder, it just puts it within a stated progression.
Utter crap. Are you trolling? I know you like picking arguments with people on here but that's ridiculous. If you really believe that, you don't understand skiing.
The skiing curriculum is in an order for a reason - it's increases in difficulty in line with people's increase in skillset. Carving requires subtle range and rates of movement and balance that people new to the sport simply don't possess. What percentage of punter skiers can genuinely carve? 10%? 20%? 100% of them can skid turn. If carving's easy why can't they all do it? Just because nobody showed them how to? Bollox.
I tell you what, why don't you skip the plough-parallel with your first group of pupils and move straight to railing? See how you get on. I seem to recall that several years ago there was a movement in the US to start people directly with carving, using 1m longish skis and then increasing the length of the ski over the course of the week. Can't remember the specific ski school but I do know I haven't heard anything more of it for years; that's how successful it was (not).
It's 3am now and England are crap at cricket so I'm going to bed. You'll have to pick an argument with someone else. Enjoy.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Raceplate,
Quote:
I seem to recall that several years ago there was a movement in the US to start people directly with carving, using 1m longish skis and then increasing the length of the ski over the course of the week. Can't remember the specific ski school but I do know I haven't heard anything more of it for years; that's how successful it was (not).
Dunno about the US. Ski Evolutif was pioneeered in France and ESF at Les Arcs uses to do it, still might. I think the remarkable range of equipment needed might have been a bit of a bar to uptake, skis lengthened twice a day sometimes. they started way under 1m length. I think it's featured in "We Learned to Ski".
There now appears to be a Methode Evolutive featuring a ski of less than 1m in length and allowing people to go parallel in one day. La plus ça change
I've seen people go straight to parallell turning who remained unable to demonstrate a skidded turn or a plough for that matter.
The plough parallel represents a natural progression from plough turns to parallel, if done properly. Otherwise it represents a major stumbling block in the progress of skiers. This can be because the skier has been passed up to the next class on the basis of a snowplough turn that has no element of steering, but rather a brushed out change of outside ski orientation, followed by a weight transfer that applies a sideways braking force and some change of skier direction. These skiers have never actually consciously felt the effect of riding a ski round a turn and are the ones who will have to force the inside ski into its end of turn paralllel.
There may be many options for dealing with such skiers, here are two that I know of:
1) Go back to basics, fix the posture, establish a proper schuss, use leg rotation to apply plough glide, use the same for plough steering, increase the speed at which turning takes pace, adding extension and retraction with timing, until proper balance and leg rotation, combined with the forces on the ski produce a natural plough parallel, from which the plough can be removed, often without conscious effort from the skier.
2) Do some railing. Start with a line of tiny markers to avoid, broaden the markers gradually whilst stressing the need to keep a circular turn shape, eventually a skid/steer comes in depending on the flexibility of the skier.
Method 1 is probably best in terms of overall skier development, but can meet with resistance from the clients. Unless you are Ali Ross, this is probably best left until instructor training when the teacher can dispense with the the nicey-nicey type of feedback and verbally knock seven ells off the aspirant ski god.
Method 2 gives a change of pace for the class and gives the chance for them to feel skis working the way they were meant to.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I personally ditched plow parallel after trying it a few times and moved straight onto parallel. It just felt unnatural to me whereas pure parallel felt like a much more natural movement. I've since revisited and adjusted my snowplow technique, and am pretty certain that it was bad snowplows that made the plow parallel feel wrong. I think that done when badly, it contributes to a lot of intermediates having a persistent stem in their turns, especially if they spent a while doing it before moving on.
That said, I'm certainly no instructor (yet), and can't make in informed judgement - just pointing out my own experience.
thirty06, how does someone that can only carve stop? Surely everyone can at least use a skid to bring themselves to a halt?
Masque, when teaching someone to do something do you think it is beneficial to give an overly complex description of how the ski got into a certain state or describe how the input they give will change the output they get. I'm going to hazard that for at least 90% of learners describing that leaning over more when skiing correctly will result in a tighter turn radius because the ski is bent into a tighter arc imparts much more useful and immediately applicable knowledge.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
how does someone that can only carve stop?
having got up in small hours because I was coughing and needed a hot drink, very glad to find that we have not yet determined how many angels can dance on the head of a pin - an interesting read. Presumably somebody who can only carve goes back up the hill until they stop - then starts carving backwards - I envisage a kind of pendulum swing coming to an unstable stop.
I've been entirely convinced since the beginning of this thread that carved turns are a higher level skill (if only because I can't do them whilst I can sometimes do quite nice steered turns ) But like rob@rar I also see very few people in the hill doing them and I suspect that as raceplate said rather harshly the OP can't do them either.
I don't think I'd find an instructor telling me to "lean over more" any more helpful than Masque's effort (though it would be unhelpful much quicker )
Rick Schnellman's DVDs clearly explain and demonstrate both steered turns and carved turns - I've suggested them to Megamum before and given that she is prepared (unlike most) to give a lot of thought and attention to analysis I'm sure she'd find them extremely helpful.
Masque, that statement about inclining the ski wasn't meant to explain the physics of carving, or how to carve, just correct the misconception that a carved turn could only be made at the radius of the ski. Your explanation is obviously more thorough, but somewhat unnecessary in that context.
I explained this in another post, but my intention wasn't to belittle Megamum, just explain again my viewpoint. Perhaps I was harsh, but she wasn't helping herself when she insinuated that I don't know what a steered turn is. She may have been looking to learn, but she wasn't listening, and as for being lazy, where did I sign a contract to explain everything thoroughly? I've taught over 200 hours in the last 25 days, I don't have the time to write an essay every time I post here.
As for your friends that find carving easier than steering, they are incredibly unusual, in thirteen full time seasons instructing I have never seen anyone like that.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
meh,
Quote:
how does someone that can only carve stop?
With panache. A minimum radius carved circular turn is a great way to finish a run.
rasmanisar,
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I personally ditched plow parallel after trying it a few times and moved straight onto parallel. It just felt unnatural to me whereas pure parallel felt like a much more natural movement. I've since revisited and adjusted my snowplow technique, and am pretty certain that it was bad snowplows that made the plow parallel feel wrong.
Your weight was too far back, partly as a result of insufficient ankle flex, but mainly because your back was too upright. Bending your knees simply positioned your center of mass over your heels or further back. Any rotation you performed in this position was ineffective owing to poor snow contact from the tip to the middle of the outside ski. In an effort to make a greater rotational movement, you dipped you shoulders into the turn and removed weight from the outside ski so that it could be swung round quickly and then stood on in its new orientation. When you tried plough parallel, there was an effort need to straighten your skis and the tip of the inside ski sometimes waved about in the air.
I'm guessing.
I don't know why it happens, it really isn't taught, but a large percentage of beginner skiers will start leaning into their turns as they get to the linked plough stage. This carries on until they are promoted through classes. at turn initiation, they have anticipated the forces of the turn by leaning in and there is not enough pressure on the outside ski to make for decent grip, so the ski slips at the start of the turn. The slippage can be reduced and disguised a bit, often by lifting the inside ski as soon as the outside ski starts working to reduce the wedge, but the result can be a skier who presents themselves for instructor training and is in fact unable to demonstrate a basic parallel turn.
pam w, I think you're pretty much right although I wasn't suggesting it was something to be used as an instruction but as an explanation of how tipping the ski over generates tighter arcs.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
The "Stivoting" to me appears to be a type of transition during a carved turn. In the videos the skiers are generating very little snow spray as they re-direct the skis, which is something that skidding the skis would do. The recoil from the skis when transitioning from one direction to the other when carving can be really fierce and this really accelerates or "throws" the skier out of the turn. This recoil can be harnessed to transition from turn to turn in a few different ways (as I was taught anyway!)...
1. High transition - This uses the more traditional technique of rise and fall of the whole body to help initiate the nest turn and switch weight to the opposite ski - really nice for long GS style turns
2. Low transition - This technique is useful for shorter/tighter/whippy slalom turns and is more difficult to master. The upper body stays at the same height relative to the slope and the legs bend much more on as weight is transferred. Keeping the weight forward is key here or you'll end up in the back seat with no control in the next turn.
3. Air transitions - This is were the skis lift off the ground when the energy is released on the exit of the turn and you land on your opposite edges. Looks really cool and can be timed with a nice bump in the piste for a little extra air! To me the Stivot turn is using this technique to change the ski direction and maintain speed without skidding.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
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Perhaps I was harsh, but she wasn't helping herself when she insinuated that I don't know what a steered turn is. She may have been looking to learn, but she wasn't listening, and as for being lazy, where did I sign a contract to explain everything thoroughly?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
), so maybe I'll just sod off and not open this thread again. Nothing to see here folks, and no need to open this thread or post again because I'm not going to do so. Unless of course you want to continue to argue the subject amongst yourselves or bemoan yet another perceived Megamum flounceo (which is my prediction), but I'm sorry I'm not going accused of being insulting when that is not the case. Just let this thread fall off the first page and I'll go back to posting in après which is clearly the only place I am welcome. 
I do not agree with your idea but you are not the only one who thinks so.
The worst of your comment is that I'm certain that you both know it's so simplistic as to be meaningless and misleading. Edit: I'll give you that it is difficult to explain in simple terms but that doesn't let you off the hook for saying summat so vapid.
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