 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, and jimmer, thank you- excellant and quite interesting -especially what Japan does.
eddiethebus, yes i love skiing and all the thrills excitement etc. Now, i can say that enjoyment in what i do is a relative measure against previous enjoyment states / levels, so i look to have MORE and MORE fun by skiing better or to learn something specifically new. That involves training - i suppose a 'Badge System' is really just a specific skills test pass and an award to focus time and effort on. As a skier, i know it all to easy to kid yourself your good.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Tim Heeney,
What would the purpose of such a badge be ? I ski to have a laugh and enjoy myself. If I want to see how good I am I race ---- then I find out I'm not as good as I think....
Any attainment badge (like a ski instructor exam) will be a subjective exercise -- so all it would mean is that on that day, on that snow you did x, y and z - or possibly k. I'd much rather get to the bottom of a slope and share grins with the others I've been priviledged to ski with.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ski, speed isn't the only criterion by which to judge skiing, although it is an important one, of course.
By analogy, I wouldn't have become a good pianist (not that I am any more, but that's a different point) had I not taken some exams along the way. Yes, they were often a subjective exercise, but not completely subjective and for me they provided the incentive to practise in an organised way, covering all the necessary disciplines, and thereby to improve.
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Pedantica,
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speed isn't the only criterion by which to judge skiing
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Hmm -- not so sure about that. All the elements that go to make good skiing also make fast skiing --- and therefore the fastest skier is also the best (Marcel Hirscher last year). Of course, some folk perform better than others in a race situation, but that does not get away form the fact that, on the day, the fastest skier is the best.
My more general rant was about that I (passionately) feel that badges are at best, subjective, and, at worst will hinder development and enjoyment. As soon as you have a grading system, people will use that as a development pathway, rather than developing in ways that may be more appropriate to them. We ski to enjoy ourselves, and part of that will be some challenge. For me the best challenges come from the terrain, rather than artficial ones created by a ski school.
Almost the most depressing converstion I've had at the start of s ski lesson went like this -
Me (to child) 'Tell me about your skiing, how many times have you been, how do you ski ?'
Parent (Interrupting to me) 'Well he failed his Fleche last year and we want to make sure he passes this time......' As if children today don't have enough pressure ??
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ski,
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As soon as you have a grading system, people will use that as a development pathway, rather than developing in ways that may be more appropriate to them
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Developing the pupil's skills in a way which is appropriate to the particular pupil is of course subjective in itself. I agree that it's a good goal, though, and one which a good teacher can achieve, even within the bounds of an exam system. I'd have thought that would apply to most subjects, so why not skiing?
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ski, Well, for me i don't ski to have a laugh and enjoy myself. i ski to THRILL myself and yes i'm shouting it out LOUD!
Yes, you could do that in ski racing between a set of poles, but, i prefer to set my own course at any speed, super slow to super fast (with as much skill as i can muster) over the terrain / run i find interesting.
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As soon as you have a grading system, people will use that as a development pathway, rather than developing in ways that may be more appropriate to them
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I don't have any problem with people making decisions about what they want to do. If they suck at mogul technique, i have no problem with them attaining a top grade award / badge in GS turns and for ever more being useless at moguls even though their skiing needs help in that department.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 25-10-13 17:21; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Pedantica, As soon as you have an grading system, unless it's been really well written, some elements of performance will be left out (just because of time).
The grading system will need to ba maintained --- skiing is still very much a developing sport, and sometimes the ski schools and associations just don't keep up.
The BASI Central Theme, for example, emphasises much more a continuous development of skills, rather than a series of stepping stones. This would be lost as soon as you try to grade it.
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I'd have thought that would apply to most subjects, so why not skiing?
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The major reason is that there is no need for it --- why add additional barriers/pressures to something that's already hard enough ?
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ski,
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I'd have thought that would apply to most subjects, so why not skiing?
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This question was related to the ability of a good teacher to tailor tuition to the individual pupil, irrespective of there being a grade system in place.
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The major reason is that there is no need for it --- why add additional barriers/pressures to something that's already hard enough ?
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This is an argument for abolishing all exams, irrespective of subject! Some - many - people need pressure to be able to perform and exams can provide not only that pressure, but also a convenient framework within which to work. Also, I'm not sure that I understand the difference between continuous development and a series of stepping stones, or at least whether that difference is hugely significant, particular if a good teacher is your guide. But I must admit that I'm coming at this more from the point of view of music education (which I know a fair amount about) than of ski teaching (which I don't!) And the BASI system does grade - there are four levels, are there not?
I do agree that it's difficult to devise a perfect examination system (in any subject.)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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There is such a system for awarding skier levels within BASI but afaik few if any schools have adopted it. http://www.basi.org.uk/docs/3808%20SNOWLIFE%20'13-web%20locked.pdf
I think they should promote it better as most kids love getting their end of week badges at the ESF and they are recognised at any other school in any other resort. Sounds like plenty of adults would like some sort of grading system as well 
On a wider note most nations have a multi tier system of instructors (barring france and Italy where you are a full cert or a trainee working under supervision in theory) BASI have 4 levels of instructor awards (one too many imv) and they each serve a good purpose and the skiing level is about right for each level to perform the instruction that they are licensed to teach. So what if a level isnt the hottest skier on the hill..
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Pedantica, Hmm I don't know much about teaching music -- I did have lessons but it was a very long time ago. We could have debate about closed and open skills, but I think that misses the point.
First off -- the four BASI levels. They have levels because there won't be enough entrants in the system joinung who are already at L4 -- and in any case part of aquiring the skills to get to L4 requires you to teach some skiing. Interesting the French only have two --- Trainee and Fully qualified. The BASI levels are a professional grading system for profession -- which, whilst it's done on skis, is more about ski teaching tham skiing.
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difference between continuous development and a series of stepping stones
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By this I mean that as soon as skills get separated, people will expect to do different things for the differing levels. We have just (within the last few years) got to the point that skils aquistiuion in skiing is a continuous flow -- so what a beginner learns is appliacble to skiing parallel for example... let's not break it again.
An example from another sport -- kayaking. In kayaking you need to be able to roll the kayak upright after a capsize (Eskimo roll). This is an important skill --- but as important is to develop the skills not to capsize in the first place. Guess which one get's practised most as part of the kayak grading system.
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ski,Hi. I'm suggesting that it might be well received by many to 'officially' train, pass a certain recognized standard in X or Y or Z or even A, B, C etc. in Skiing Skills, without any of the baggage of the necessity in training to be an instructor - It has nothing to do with being anything involved with giving or being allowed to give any instruction. I see it as a possible alternative revenue stream to an association such as BASI to run / accredit. I doubt if i'm the first to have suggested this! I suppose if i were awarded a grade 2 in variable terrain in 2013, it means nothing to anyone else but me. No pressure on me , nor penalty if i never update my skills again. Just a marker i can be proud of. At that moment i was pretty good, but not a top level 3 in 2013. That's all - end of.
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You know it makes sense.
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Tim Heeney, perhaps you could contact BASI and ask them what ski schools have signed up to administer the SnowLife award scheme that I linked to and go along for a session. I would be genuinely interested to hear how you get on.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Tim Heeney,
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I suppose if i were awarded a grade 2 in variable terrain in 2013, it means nothing to anyone else but me. No pressure on me , nor penalty if i never update my skills again. Just a marker i can be proud of. At that moment i was pretty good, but not a top level 3 in 2013. That's all - end of.
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Agreed. I feel the same.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Tim Heeney, Pedantica, I'll shut up now, I've probably done too many ski exams which is why I'm not keen on them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ski,
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kayaking. In kayaking you need to be able to roll the kayak upright after a capsize (Eskimo roll). This is an important skill --- but as important is to develop the skills not to capsize in the first place. Guess which one get's practised most as part of the kayak grading system.
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What gets practised is down to the teacher, not to the system. The Eskimo roll is merely a (useful) marker in the overall framework. As we are constantly reading, it's a bad idea - again in any subject - simply to 'teach to the exam.'
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, Hi Scott -As for 'Kids' and their badges.. If the award is just and honest with video feedback and judge verbal commentary , then i can see no reason why 'adults' wouldn't be just as stoked at achievement as kids can be. Stick me in my side and you'll provoke a reaction. Look at 'Strictly', where there's passion, improvement's just behind.
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ski, Okay mate, thanks for your opinion and joining in this discussion. Have a nice weekend.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Tim Heeney, +1 (again!)
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| ski wrote: |
| Tim Heeney, Pedantica, I'll shut up now, I've probably done too many ski exams which is why I'm not keen on them. |
Fair dos. I think we've all had criticisms of exam systems we've experienced! 
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skimottaret,
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Tim Heeney, perhaps you could contact BASI and ask them what ski schools have signed up to administer the SnowLife award scheme that I linked to and go along for a session. I would be genuinely interested to hear how you get on.
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Sure, i'm off to the Ski show and i'll ask them - seems an interesting conversation to get into with them given they won't be too busy 'signing up' BASI instructor courses! Thanks for the suggestion Scott.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 25-10-13 18:24; edited 1 time in total
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skimottaret, FWIW I've often wished that there was an adult grading system.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, that's worth a friday hug! 
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There's already a grading system for skiing. It's called what can you ski down and how well on the mountain. That's how climbing works. Although judging by UKC formalising it too much in skiing would only end up in pointless arguments. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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CERTIFACATES N BAJJIZ FOR SALE ....gedd em ere while theyre warm girls....all grades catered for... Surfitickets issued ere any colour ya loikes!!
1:Bikini Skiing
2:Bubble Door Bum Blocking (you know you do it)
3:Progressive i (itchy) STD
All issued from the Saff Lundun Skool of Skiing by Video assessment
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'll have one of #1 please Mr. Clammer, will be issuing you with the requisite mankini footage forthwith.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| I'm not sure that I understand the difference between continuous development and a series of stepping stones, or at least whether that difference is hugely significant, particular if a good teacher is your guide. |
I had a (minor) revelation when I started thinking about skills in terms of building blocks rather than stepping stones. Stepping stones get left behind, building blocks become the foundation.
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You know it makes sense.
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little ms spock, makes sense. On that basis, I concede that stepping stones are not much use for the acquisition of skills. But we're again talking about tuition, not about the testing of skills, which is what exams are supposed to do.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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I might be hallucinating but I'm sure there used to be official British punter ski ability tests administered, I think, by the Tea Club. You had to pay to be assessed and were awarded a Bronze, Silver or Gold certificate of ability. I'm sure they were still available about 10 years ago but I can't find any mention of it on their website any more so the scheme must have been abolished.
Maybe we should just use the Italian system?
Friend of mine tells the true story of her end-of-week feedback session in Italian Ski School: the class were lined up and one-by-one the Instructor pointed down the line giving individual feedback in his best English on their performance during the week. "You, you ski sh*t! You, you sh*t, too! You, you ski ok. You, you ski sh*t! You, you sh*t too!....."
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Personally I think that Snowlife Ski Awards is an excellent scheme (I've never seen it before, which says something) & if the snow centres & dry slopes were to adopt & promote it more, as a recognised pathway with optional badges, it may encourage people to carry on with instruction beyond the current level 4 on HH Achievement Cards
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In my view that is precisely what they are designed for, not so much as a badge of honour but to highlight that there is always more to learn. Allowing you to get more enjoyment from your skiing as you progress and to gently encourage further training. I really think BASI and Brit ski schools are missing a trick and should promote this much better. Why not have an alternative Brit scheme like the ESF badges so when you go on hols it encourages you to buy British and go with a ski school that follows the BASI pathway and uses BASI trained instructors and a Level whatever is granted at the appropriate time and signed off by a BASI member.. Big problem is that it will take a concerted effort and needs some inertia to gain acceptance.
Looks as though a few Brit schools are using it or planning to introduce. I hear that Cairngorm is along with New Gen Serre Chev and Milton Keynes is looking to introduce... I will follow up with Hemel...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm sure I saw mention of the Snow Life awards from some ski schools when I was looking to book some lessons for my family this year. So there are some out there, but I can't find any reference to them now.
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kieranm, I am somewhat surprised that BASI don't promote the scheme better and at least have a webpage of all the schools that have taken it up. It needs to gain some traction and public awareness let alone awareness amoungst instructors.
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Looks as though a few Brit schools are using it or planning to introduce. I hear that Cairngorm is along with New Gen Serre Chev and Milton Keynes is looking to introduce..
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snowHeads might even be able to work for their badges at the Bashes at which New Gen instructors teach.
franzClammer, could I ask with whom you're doing gates on a Monday? When I last enquired about race training for novices at Hemel, there was nothing available. I'd love to do some, but it needs to be at a lowly level.
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Haggis_Trap, I think you're confusing stem christie with the basic swing. Stem christie is very different to plough parallel.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ i disagree.
you could argue the old fashioned Stem Christie is a "slightly" different turn.
however fundamentally it is still a wedge / snow plough into a parallel finish.
any difference's are primarily because skiing used to be taught differently in the days of 200cm skis and no side cut (i.e perhaps stepping the ski or other variants).
plough parallel / basic swing / stem christie are fundamentally the same "principal" just using slightly different techniques / jargon from previous era's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_Christie
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Haggis_Trap, next time you have a refresher you should argue that with your trainer
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FAQ
I was just about to post it!!!!! But I was distracted on youtube again 
