 Poster: A snowHead
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
Does your lift pass, food and easyjet return flight to resort really work out at 400€ a week?  |
It probably does - ski hire, and a lift pass, thats over €200, a flight is €100 then 3 meals a day and a room? I'm not complaining, but then im not doing this job to make money, its a way of skiing for free! If i was trying to go skiing myself with some mates i would be spending double that for a weeks skiing, easily.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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thedrewski, ski hire for the season may cost a lot less than you expect
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| thedrewski, ski hire for the season may cost a lot less than you expect |
Especially when I have all my own kit and didn't need any hire...
I'm fully on the side of "we/they should get paid more", I regularly did 14/18hr days out there and when you know that an entire day's work has only earnt you enough money to buy 2 beers it gets quite demotivating. You do it for the love of skiing, but that love only lasts so long.
But then I also don't know anyone who'd pay £2000pp for a chalet holiday.
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dorsetboy, not really, lift pass (I brought enough) was worth 117€ a month that's only 30€ a week, food budget is upto 50€ a week and as for accom some is worth a bit but most is not.
It would have to work hard to be 400 a week.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| dorsetboy wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
Does your lift pass, food and easyjet return flight to resort really work out at 400€ a week? |
It probably does - ski hire, and a lift pass, thats over €200, a flight is €100 then 3 meals a day and a room? I'm not complaining, but then im not doing this job to make money, its a way of skiing for free! If i was trying to go skiing myself with some mates i would be spending double that for a weeks skiing, easily. |
I can assure you it doesn't, ask the chefs or your resort accountant and see them laugh. We're talking about 400€ difference per week here remember, not all season, and as I said my rent is paid by the employer too so in effect you're paying 500€ per week for insurance, food and a lift pass.
Your pass can vary widely depending on the area, I admit that, but will be somewhere between 300 to 700 for the season, not per week.
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| dorsetboy wrote: |
albinomountainbadger, Dwarf Vader,
I'm not saying what it costs the TO's - i'm saying if i wanted to come and ski in a similar area, at a similar time (half term) and eat the same food, stay in the same place, it would cost a HUGE amount of money, which i can't afford. |
I appreciate that, and it's a very important point of why people do seasons, but Jean-Luc LeBlanc doing exactly the same job for Francais-Ski-Fromage will work fewer hours than you and still be paid well enough to go on holiday himself when he gets back! The simple point is that you're being ripped off just because you work for a British tour operator.
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| pam w wrote: |
The British applicants would obviously have to compete against locals, many of them with access to cheap accommodation, and eastern Europeans etc.
But we're all in favour of fair competition and doing away with protectionism, aren't we? |
You don't think availability and accessibility of "market priced" accomodation might rather skew the concept of competition, denying lots of young people the opportunity to have a season in the alps? It's not as if in many resorts you can live in the equivalent of a bedsit in Zone 6 & commute.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| It's not as if in many resorts you can live in the equivalent of a bedsit in Zone 6 & commute. |
Why not ? It doesn't take that long to drive up from valley towns to quite a few resorts and there are workers' buses as well.
I have met plenty of instructors who do this.
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fatbob, that's an unusual take on the concept of competition. If a young lad living in Chichester with his parents got a job teaching windsurfing for the summer at West Witterings, where he could cycle each day, would you regard it as unfair competition, denying a French windsurfer the opportunity because he would have to look for digs?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob, Many resorts have specially constructed accommodation for season workers, which only employers can rent thus keeping the tourists away and prices down. I lived in one of these for a few years and it cost my employer 350€ a month on an annual lease. I had it to myself, as is required by the law, but my British TO-employed neighbours numbered four (in bunkbeds) in the same sized tiny studio...
pam w, I would disagree with one thing in your analysis, that is that I can't see locals taking the place of Brits in bars, chalets and hotels. Young locals are brought up to be pisteurs and instructors, or shop managers and hoteliers. The menial jobs are taken by season workers who come in from the rest of France and are lodged by the employers or find their own accommodation. If anything they will find this easier and cheaper if the TOs stop block booking so many apartments to fill with their slaves, sorry, staff.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
PJSki wrote:
Boredsurfing wrote:
So SCGB leaders paid or unpaid?
I understand an ex-rep (sacked for being a danger to others) is out in the Alps doing 'favours' for skiers in return for a free lunch and a bit of cash. Legal?
Rarely do I agree with you but on this one you are spot on. Nope, when it's for cash that is totally illegal and dangerous.
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I have skied with the ex-rep on a number of occasions, and confirm cash has never changed hands. You are under no obligation to buy lunch. It is up to the individual if they wish to buy lunch for anyone else.
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You know it makes sense.
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codger, same here - pretty sure i bought him a beer or two (at least I hope I did!) but that is just polite if someone is happy to share their stashes with you
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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so...
1. in a statement the ESF lot are saying that its not safe for un-qualified ski guides to take people on the piste,
but it is safe if they are not being paid !
if thats the case then its all about the payments, nothing to do with safety.
2. The court has fined the TO for not paying staff the minimum wage, as perks are perks and can not be counted as pay
if thats the case, then recieving no actual pay for guiding but getting a ski pass can't be classed as recieving payment
its a perk !!
3. If ESF say they were not involved with the case directly...yet recieved 'loss of earnings'..
so it's a case of TO have to pay the minimum wage to all staff in french alps...ok
which would mean the emplyees have to pay their way and get charged for accomodation etc.
The end finacial result will be the same..
All the TO does then is 'ask' employee to ski guide 'as a perk' of being in resort, and as perks are not classed as pay
the employee is 'free guiding' ..........problem solved
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Poster: A snowHead
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I see that Crystal (owned by TUI iirc) have now publically said..... OK so we can't "Guide" in France, "Social Skiing" is very important to our Guests in all Countries, therefore we will continue to organise "Social Skiing" for our Guests.
I can see "Social Skiing" becoming the next "Pub Crawl" type event for the TOs..... Of course no employer would pay for an employee to go on a pub crawl, but if the employee takes it on themselves to organise a weekly pub crawl then who are the employer to complain?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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They are about to discuss this on Radio 4 shortly
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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They'll take it all they way to the ECHR they say!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| They'll take it all they way to the ECHR they say! |
Because the bureaucrats in Brussels will be able to sort this out in no time, won't they.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| They'll take it all they way to the ECHR they say! |
I think you'll find that will be the European Court of Justice, not the ECHR. /pedant mode
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| Quote: |
The simple point is that you're being ripped off just because you work for a British tour operator.
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This. I quit TO hotel management for ticket sales because I now take home twice as much and work half the hours.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| agw wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| They'll take it all they way to the ECHR they say! |
I think you'll find that will be the European Court of Justice, not the ECHR. /pedant mode |
Actually I think the ESF might be denying my human rights 
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Lizzard, But I'm sure you miss looking after all those seasonnaires
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| agw wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| They'll take it all they way to the ECHR they say! |
I think you'll find that will be the European Court of Justice, not the ECHR. /pedant mode |
Yes, I will now whip myself to tatters. Hope you're happy. Whatever EC it is, it's a no hoper.
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| Masque wrote: |
I still think that there should be an agreed qualification . . . and I don't think it inconceivable for the TO to get their act together and talk to the French authorities to thrash out and define what it needs to be and how to administer it. Some will argue that the French are always completely inflexible . . . to an extent everybody is when presented with a fixed attitude.
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I imagine the problems would be around getting any form of qualification to fit in around TO recruitment and remuneration strategies. i.e. it wouldn't.
I imagine that quite a few TOs are more worried about the minimum wage part of the judgement than the hosting element. That goes for quite a few of the smaller chalet operators as well tbh.
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You know it makes sense.
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emwmarine, To be honest nothing will ever fit in around the TO ideal of chaining a chalet maid in a cellar and not letting then see daylight from November till May. But I'll be brutal and state that from personal experience most hardly work a full week. Hours are all over the place but 'work' never. Many chalets seem overstaffed and poorly managed. The Crystal farce I went on last year was woeful when looked at from a catering point of view. A centralised preping system would half the time and resources spent preparing meals with a much smaller staff load. Not meals on wheels but slashing man hours. Employ fewer reps on good wages and require them to actually do a job of work rather than have a long party holiday with a bit of light dusting thrown in with the salmonella. From what I saw of Crystal in Les Arcs they couldn't organise an orgy in a brothel.
I believe the whole system needs an overhaul.
I do have some sympathy for the smaller and individual chalets but even there man hour economies can be made in some areas and the reps be paid properly under French law.
There's a business idea . . . a central food prepping service for fruit, veg, deserts, soups, oven ready meats to individual recipes, etc. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Masque,
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There's a business idea . . . a central food prepping service for fruit, veg, deserts, soups, oven ready meats to individual recipes, etc
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Ski Beat started to go down that route...look what happened to them  But yes it must be the way forward aligned to laundry and wet/dry goods provision.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| codger wrote: |
| Quote: |
PJSki wrote:
Boredsurfing wrote:
So SCGB leaders paid or unpaid?
I understand an ex-rep (sacked for being a danger to others) is out in the Alps doing 'favours' for skiers in return for a free lunch and a bit of cash. Legal?
Rarely do I agree with you but on this one you are spot on. Nope, when it's for cash that is totally illegal and dangerous.
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I have skied with the ex-rep on a number of occasions, and confirm cash has never changed hands. You are under no obligation to buy lunch. It is up to the individual if they wish to buy lunch for anyone else. |
What kind of wood do you want your coffin made out of?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Boredsurfing, Many of the bars and restaurants on the mountain already 'buy in' a significant amount of pre-prepared items, particularly the pastries. Having each chalet rep cooking in a cramped kitchen twice a day is ludicrous. Two people doing a real days work could have prepped for the entire block and all the room rep need do is collect and heat properly. Proper portion and waste control and far less mess to clean and clear . . . coupled with higher and consistent food standards and far less ludicrous 'food rules' for the guests. It would also enable vegetarian guests to be far better catered for.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
fatbob, Many resorts have specially constructed accommodation for season workers, which only employers can rent thus keeping the tourists away and prices down.
pam w, That is that I can't see locals taking the place of Brits in bars, chalets and hotels. Young locals are brought up to be pisteurs and instructors, or shop managers and hoteliers. The menial jobs are taken by season workers who come in from the rest of France and are lodged by the employers or find their own accommodation. If anything they will find this easier and cheaper if the TOs stop block booking so many apartments to fill with their slaves, sorry, staff. |
I do agree with full buildings dedicated as staff blocks. Valmorel is a good example with the first buildings when driving in the resort being just that. As for the segregation of jobs I would not push it that far. I did work the lifts and am local. A few of us used to do it for the season and one or two were full timers fixing the lines over the summer.
A lot of french are "travailleurs saisoniers" and are recognized as such by the government with particular benefits attached to this seasonal way of working which includes an adjusted pay/benefit-rate during the unworked months of the year, which you can compare to "internittent du spectacle" adjusted benefits between two gigs (weeks/months...). As an example, you can work the Byblos in Courch' during the winter and move onto their St Tropez property over the summer and still be consider saisonier on the payroll, or even work a small private altitude restaurant for the winter and be a surf shop asssitant in Lacanau over the summer.
Considering this I would say there are no really menial jobs as long as you know and ask/force/coerce your boss to adjust your tax/benefit rate in harmony with the French work law requirements. On the other hand I do agree I cannot see loads of local ready to work for nothing in chalets. That would be for a financial point of view but also cultural. I might be totally wrong but I do not think chalets are made and run with a continental European client focus in minds.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
Masque,
| Quote: |
There's a business idea . . . a central food prepping service for fruit, veg, deserts, soups, oven ready meats to individual recipes, etc
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Ski Beat started to go down that route...look what happened to them But yes it must be the way forward aligned to laundry and wet/dry goods provision. |
That is already what happens to your skis overnight when you need them fixed/filled/waxed/sharpened. There is a big workshop in Bourg Saint Maurice just doing just that overnight and catering to many sport shops in Espace Killy, Paradiski, St Foy and Co. They are then sent back on delivery vans before shop opening times.
Now a central kitchen in Bourg or even Albertville despatching the food either frozen or pipping hot to the chalets once a day would be a great idea ! You just need good equipment in the chalet to store and prep the food (bain maries, pulsated air ovens and deep freezers) and only one food processing staff to run the location. Most probably this one person could be polyvalent and take care of the housekeeping/basic maintenance side which I suspect, already king of happens in certain cases.
What would be a genius point would be a van capable to have segregated hermetic compartments for food and laundry delivery/pickup. The handling would be the issue, though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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volklwaffen, sounds like school meals service.
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Hells Bells, Nowt wrong with that if quality. On a small industrial scale it would be quite easy to have quite a varied menu and centralised buying provides a deep pool of resource content including bespoke and ethnic cooking. You could even cater for quite small and specialised needs, though for some that would require food separation areas.
I don't think it necessary to deliver a complete cooked meal to a 'chalet', just do all the prepwork and perhaps starters and puds but leave the host to literally put the main course in/on the stove. With a bit of timing one rep could cover at least 3 apartment block 'chalets' and be paid a decent wage for the season. There wouldn't be as much skiing free time.
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| Quote: |
sounds like school meals service.
Nowt wrong with that if quality. On a small industrial scale it would be quite easy to have quite a varied menu and centralised buying provides a deep pool of resource content including bespoke and ethnic cooking. You could even cater for quite small and specialised needs, though for some that would require food separation areas.
I don't think it necessary to deliver a complete cooked meal to a 'chalet', just do all the prepwork and perhaps starters and puds but leave the host to literally put the main course in/on the stove. With a bit of timing one rep could cover at least 3 apartment block 'chalets' and be paid a decent wage for the season. |
That is exactly what hapenned during the Games in 1992. All was prepared in central kitchens in the Valley (Albertville) and sent to the various restaurants and press centers and other venues in resorts and Brides les Bains. The contracts were given to/won by local "traiteurs" and it did work. If they could handle this traffic 20 years ago for two weeks I am sure thye can now do a few chalets in the resorts.
You can deliver cooked meals. You can also do packed food either under controlled athmosphere or just "sous vide" for later assembly. The staff just need to bain marie the cooked ingredients (say duck breasts + sauce + green beans) and lay them down on the plate in less thant 20mn. The desserts and breakfast danish are even easier : pre-prepared tart base + recomposed custard + fresh fruit (either cut by the host or already processed) all laid down in less than 10 minutes or just 10mn pulsated air oven for the frozen croissants and pains au chocolat in the morning. The chalet just need to be fitted with a decent sattelite kitchen and the staff trained as chefs, hence the better salary. Spare time can be devoted to housekeeping tasks, basic maintenance and security and guests assistance.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 23-02-13 15:16; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm not sure what all this 'Ready, Steady, Chalet Cook' stuff has got to do "alleged illegal ski guiding". However, I know of a chef who could easily troubleshoot any of the issues above, by the name of Jef Wickes (also voted 'the world's greatest skier').
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Re. the French court decision, the official line from the SCGB on this, published 3 days ago ...
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/news/story.aspx?storyID=8850#.USnxqjd7TTo
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Ski Club Leader service unaffected by the hosting ban in France
Tour operator ski hosting on the snow in France has been banned but Leader service will continue.
The French court in Albertville led the prosecution against chalet specialist operator Le Ski. Le Ski are in the process of lodging an appeal and are supported by a group of other tour operators whose hosting services have also been affected and withdrawn following the outcome. Many tour operators offer a ski hosting programme where reps and hosts ski with their guests and help them find their way to the best pistes, restaurants and hot chocolate stops. No instruction is given. The ruling stipulates it is legal requirement to have an appropriate qualification to teach or lead skiing if remuneration is received.
The Ski Club of Great Britain’s Leader service remains unaffected by the court ruling because the members that lead in resort are (unpaid) volunteers.
Ski hosting in other destinations is still available with many tour operators. |
Additional reporting by Planetski (updated again) ...
http://www.planetski.eu/news/4687
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| The Ski Club of Great Britain has announced it will be continuing with its leading service in France. It is able to do so as its leaders are unpaid volunteers though they do have most of their expenses paid including accomodation, lift pass, food and travel. Here at PlanetSKI we understand senior figures from The Club met the ESF in December in France to assess the position and were advised it would be acceptable to continue. |
I'm a little more confused. I'll number these points for ease of reference:
1. Re. the SCGB report, a court of law in an advanced democracy (such as France) does not "lead a prosecution". A kangaroo court does this. A proper court of law is an arena in which the scales of justice are exercised by strict neutrality and independence. Any prosecuting (or claiming) is done by a prosecutor (or claimant). The court is there to hear competing evidence and for a judge/jury to reach a verdict. I think that's about right - any resident lawyers are welcome to comment.
2. The SCGB has previously said that it has linked itself with Le Ski in this action and/or involving itself in group meetings with other tour operators (the Ski Club is, of course, a tour operator, in which some SCGB leaders head-up ski holiday groups).
3. There's a clear difference between the Planetski and SCGB reportage. The former puts the emphasis on a SCGB/ESF meeting, which the SCGB has not reported. If a deal has been struck, it would be interesting to know the details - i.e. what the ESF have said. If this is a secure agreement, it can be out in the open. If it's loose and undependable, that's a worry.
4. The extent to which the Club can actually distance itself from the regular tour operating trade depends on the key point made by the SCGB: " ... unaffected by the court ruling because the members that lead in resort are (unpaid) volunteers." If benefits-in-kind (accommodation, travel, food, liftpass etc.) are not classed as payment, the SCGB point is valid. I'm aware that this point was in the process of being tested in a major law case about ten years ago, in which the SCGB was defending an action brought by an injured skier (not in France). I'm not sure that this "unpaid" point is as cut-and-dried as my Club makes out, but we'll see how things eventually pan out.
5. ... Which tempts a reversion to the obvious old point: if the Club is certain of its elevated legal position, why did it cosy-up to Le Ski and the other tour operators in the first place?
6. The off-piste aspect of the SCGB's activities is surely really the key point, since that concerns all countries (rather than just France). It seems that this point (rather than aspects of French law) has always caused the problems: in Verbier (twice), St Anton (and maybe Les Arcs and Mayrhofen, but I don't know the details of what happened in these places).
7. All this highly complex stuff is just the tip of the iceberg, and an ongoing drag on the SCGB's potential development. Is it really worth burning the candle any longer, for a leading service which benefits 10% to 15% of members (subsidised by the 85% to 90% of other members), costs such a vast amount to operate, and recruits so few new members? Someone told me the Dutch national ski club (serving a comparable nation) has a far larger membership, paying a much lower membership price, with insurance included. Maybe we could look into how the Dutch do it!
8. And then ... there's snowHeads ... simply doing what the SCGB did in the first place, linking up skiers, keeping everyone fully informed, and generating a vital archive of published ski knowledge.
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Comedy Goldsmith, I told you months ago the Teacosy has always played 'Janus' and would be doing a 'deal' behind backs . . . the recent management has always demonstrated its 'character'.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 24-02-13 14:04; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
