 Poster: A snowHead
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miranda, wooooosh
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| miranda, wooooosh |
Oh dear... seems like I missed somethig 
Either way, Austria sounds fab and anyone who hates "the French" (and all the horrible prices, accommodation and apres ski they offer), or who wants ski hosting, should definitely head there it seems. Problem solved.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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miranda, in Austria the whole industry is geared to the idea that everyone is a guest. In France everyone is an ATM. End.
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| Corduroy wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
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they want the exclusive on a blossoming trend
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 I don't think ski hosting is particularly a "blossoming trend" - there seemed to be more of it about years ago, when I used to do package holidays they pretty well all offered hosting in French resorts. Just as more and more people are doing DIY holidays, more seem to be capable of grabbing a piste map and showing themselves around. |
Possibly, but personally i have noticed TO's advertise it more and more of late.....
It has been around for years but just lately it seems to have been pushed as a real reason to choose a certain operator |
Certainly anywhere I ski recently (Chamonix, pds, gm) it is almost non-existent, to a casual observer as opposed to when I practised it in 1988-1991 when every time one stopped there was another ski host hanging around.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, as I said - sounds great!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Utlimately you go to Austria for the leatherwear. The French have no idea.
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I think bode is being sarcastic 
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| Quote: |
I think bode is being sarcastic
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Really? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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miranda, maybe Bode Swiller, was hoping everyone stays in France and leaves Austria just for him...
But surely you've all got to admit you can't beat the purpose built French linked lift systems and mega-resorts...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| Piccadilly, and it looks like it will have to stop in France . Their website this evening says this |
| thedrewski wrote: |
All the hosts I know out at the moment have been told to stop immediately and they're unlikely to restart. |
What an utter pain in the @rse.
Hopefully TOs will help to arrange for solo guests of similar abilities to ski together, otherwise I suppose people like me will just have to ask around.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| WayneC wrote: |
| But surely you've all got to admit you can't beat the purpose built French linked lift systems and mega-resorts... |
Nope (can't tell if you are joking), that whole "we've got X thousand KMs of piste and X hundred lifts" malarkey is just willy waving isn't it? In Austria they are talking about linking Alpbach to the Zillertal and the Wildschonau to the SkiWelt and Kitzbuhel to Zell am See and Zell am See to Saalbach and Saalbach to The Moon. Eventually you'll have 1000 KM of piste at your disposal and the mother of all taxi rides home. It's insane. And why? Just so they can "be the biggest". Oh, whoopee doo. You can only ski one run at a time and you go back to the runs you like time after time. Clocking up miles for the sake of it is bonkers.
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| WayneC wrote: |
| Ski Olympic say this.... |
I noticed they have not changed their website however speaking to the hosts I know they are just going to help out in the chalets and not be sent home, but no hosting.
The TO I worked for last year has changed their website to say that hosting is now no longer supplied.
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Zell am See to Saalbach |
They been talking about ever since I've been going there for the last 5 years+
I do agree Austria is poo-poo , Skiing in the tree line, no real hight, to loud apre ski, food all fat and grease and the beer pah, why would you go there?
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You know it makes sense.
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Rubbish decision ,but totally foreseeable. But " my name is Psychobabble and I enjoy skiing in France..." 
I suspect the Moris in Val d'Isere is on borrowed time as hosting was a major attraction for all the singles and mixed ability groups.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| PsychoBabble wrote: |
Rubbish decision ,but totally foreseeable. But " my name is Psychobabble and I enjoy skiing in France..."
I suspect the Moris in Val d'Isere is on borrowed time as hosting was a major attraction for all the singles and mixed ability groups. |
Mark Warner are still advertising ski hosting for next season, no small print on the website AFAICS
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Poster: A snowHead
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I have friends who tend to go with Mark Warner purely for the ski hosting, which they appear to operate very well. When I've stayed at a MW place in Courchevel, on an ItS week, their ski host normally has an instructor qual. So what level qualification would be required to lead a group round the mountain?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Kel wrote: |
| PsychoBabble wrote: |
Rubbish decision ,but totally foreseeable. But " my name is Psychobabble and I enjoy skiing in France..."
I suspect the Moris in Val d'Isere is on borrowed time as hosting was a major attraction for all the singles and mixed ability groups. |
Mark Warner are still advertising ski hosting for next season, no small print on the website AFAICS |
Maybe because they are still offering it, just not in France? The main page for ski hosting says they offer it in St Anton and Courmayeur.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hells Bells, yes that looks about right. They don't seem to have properly updated their website as it does say they offer it in all their resorts but when you follow the links through to the ski hosting page they say:
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| We host groups on 5 days of the week (2 days in St Anton) in Italy and Austria. |
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
| more seem to be capable of grabbing a piste map and showing themselves around. |
You didn't make it to Arabba last week, did you?  A worse piste map I have never seen, no way of telling which direction some pistes go up or down, a whole mess of pistes around Corvara that you just can't make out from the piste map you get in Arabba...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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> With my pedantic hat on, reading the actual legislation that someone posted earlier on, it's not at all clear that unqualified hosting or on-piste leading is against the law, because the law as referred to simply doesn't cover it - it covers instruction and off-piste/high mountain guiding
The legislation is on the first page of this thread and it is clear that leading clients around the slopes is illegal under French law.
> Really looking forward to reading the judgment + davidof's tame French judge's take on it.
If someone links to it but only the ESF Meribel and Le Ski will get copies.
> Does France take the view that if something isn't specifically permitted, then it's not allowed?
No.
> So what does "partie civile" mean? If it means entirely neutral party who made every effort not to be involved in the case that's one thing, if it means original witness or complainant that's another.
The French sports ministry officials initiated the control. They may have received a complaint from the ESF or they may have just been out doing spot checks as they so sometimes. I don't know. However they are not hugely proactive. In Serre Chevalier they have had a problem with Polish instructors teaching on the slopes but they come for a week with a Polish Tour Operator then leave. The ESF notice, tell the local authorities who are too slow to catch them. In Le Skis case they've been breaking the law for a long time, plenty of time to eventually catch up with them.
So back to our question about "partie civile". What happens in France is the police find someone they think is breaking the law. They pass their findings on to the prosecutor. He looks down his list and sees mass murder, domestic beatings, a serial killer, a couple of stabbings, rapes, armed robberies etc then something about a ski hosting. He decides that the ski hosting thing isn't important and bins the file. However by being a partie civile the ESF forces the prosecutor to prosecute the case. He has no choice.
In fact the ESF may not be too bothered about ski hosting but the law covers guiding, teaching and ski hosting and if they don't force the prosecutor's hand he may decided they are not too interested in defending other areas of the law such as teaching and may decide that he won't prosecute those cases either in the future.
There is also a back story. The ESF has had a number of accidents in the last few years. They've been prosecuted for these. The problems have been discussed at ministerial level. For example they risk losing the right to teach clients off-piste and this being the sole domain of guides. There has been a big crack-down on safety standards and the ESF is on the rack over this. They may feel that ski hosts are getting off lightly as they were operating completely outside the law and any controls.
This case looks the same as the 2003 Ski Olympic prosecution: Illegal ski hosting and employment law infractions. That case, prosecuted at Albertville was upheld on appeal at Chambery. So there is existing case law for the judges to draw on.
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| davidof wrote: |
This case looks the same as the 2003 Ski Olympic prosecution: Illegal ski hosting and employment law infractions. That case, prosecuted at Albertville was upheld on appeal at Chambery. So there is existing case law for the judges to draw on. |
The irony for S.O. is that last season was the first time (since then) that they felt they could wear their company jackets on the slopes to host again.
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| cathy wrote: |
Hells Bells, yes that looks about right. They don't seem to have properly updated their website as it does say they offer it in all their resorts but when you follow the links through to the ski hosting page they say:
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| We host groups on 5 days of the week (2 days in St Anton) in Italy and Austria. |
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That has JUST been changed. I booked a MW holiday only on Sat to Meribel and it was definitely part of the package then. Not a deal breaker for me as the most important aspect was the 2 single rooms without a supplement, I would have gone with the guide for a few sessions though.
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I'm sure with a bit of snowHeads help we can match up groups of skiers in resorts who would previously have used ski hosts. We already have a group of 5 in Serre Chevalier from 16th March.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Worked well for me last week in ADH. Although I've been before I don't know the place that well. skitow who is a veteran there showed us around and we went to places we would have struggled to find alone.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Kel, Quite a few will have been flown home this week . . . though the post new year fall-out will probably mean they can stay and work as standard reps till the season ends.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Kel wrote: |
| "we understand that ski hosting is a massive part of some peoples holidays ". |
Is this true? It isn't in my case, which is why I wondered why this case was such a big deal.
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You know it makes sense.
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Mosha Marc I did put up a separate thread on this, asking why people found it such an important part of their holidays and how many of us actually used it but can't find it right now.
When we used to take ski package deals hosting was either not offered or we didn't use it, except on one occasion in La Rosiere with Crystal when we joined the ski rep for the afternoon.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mosha Marc, It surprised me the first season I worked how many people actually want it as part of their holiday some times well over 50%. Yet to be seen if they will pay for it if it's not "included" in the price.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| Kel wrote: |
| "we understand that ski hosting is a massive part of some peoples holidays ". |
Is this true? It isn't in my case, which is why I wondered why this case was such a big deal. |
"Some" not me either, however I would have gone out with the hosts a few times, though for me it's not a deal breaker.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof, very interesting points. I don't think you were wrong in pointing out journalistic inadequacies elsewhere, maybe partly induced by pressure of time.
I look forward to an an authoritative account of the key issues, events and points of law on Pistehors.com.
In the meantime, readers, Pistehors has a lively forum discussion ... with a familiar contributor (ise) rounding up proceedings at the time of posting this, in a style only he can muster (!) ...
http://pistehors.com/news/forums/viewthread/1432/P15/
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
Mosha Marc I did put up a separate thread on this, asking why people found it such an important part of their holidays and how many of us actually used it but can't find it right now.
When we used to take ski package deals hosting was either not offered or we didn't use it, except on one occasion in La Rosiere with Crystal when we joined the ski rep for the afternoon. |
Don't know if you have ever used MW ski hosting, but I have and it is far superior to the hosting offered by the likes of Crystal.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Mosha Marc, for me it's pretty important as with kids in ski school (at least for the morning), a non-skiing wife and family friends who either have different holidays or not into skiing, it gives me a group of people to meet and ski with without forcing myself on any likely looking groups in the chalet / hotel.
A big part of skiing for me is the social aspect. I go on a yearly lads ski break so hosting for that is not important, but on my family trips my enjoyment would severely reduced if I had to ski on my own.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Comedy Goldsmith, thanks for posting the Pistehors link - makes for an informative and interesting read in just a couple of pages.
I particularly liked ise's brief summary of why Le Ski lost their case:
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- The accused, you’re charged with leading groups contrary to the law. How do you plead?
+ ah ha, not guilty, I wasn’t teaching. I was just leading.
- guilty, next case. |
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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davidof, I think there is an angle that might have been missed. ESF itself is being sued in that Albertville court for age discrimination by a group of elderly ski instructors that it had moved on to make way for younger versions. I think this ski guiding legal action may have something to do with that case. It occurred to me that the one thing that oldish ski instructors are more than capable of doing is .... leading clients around the slopes. I mean, who knows the places better? This ruling frees the way for the French to create a new class of on piste (French) professional and gives the ESF a soft landing exit route for their past-sell-by-date instructors.
If that is the case, then the ESF is more devious than I thought. They can offer the TO's a professional alternative to their current set up and get huge economies of scale thus boosting their revenues AND offer a solution to the TO's that will be heavily subsidised by their clients AND reduce the TO operating/admin costs. At the same time they get referrals to the ski school for lessons since the guy in front of the guided posse will be wearing an ESF jacket - focused, cost free advertising. This would also explain why the ESF are expanding their resort office network in a saturated market during a recession.
Milord, I have a cunning plan .....
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| Piccadilly wrote: |
Hopefully TOs will help to arrange for solo guests of similar abilities to ski together, otherwise I suppose people like me will just have to ask around. |
Or ski elsewhere
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| Quote: |
past-sell-by-date instructors
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I know an (English) instructor who might well kneecap you for that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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RattytheSnowRat, In this scenario is it the client who pays for the guiding which was previously inclusive of the package. I for one would not be interested, would much rather use the money on none ESF lessons.
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Kel, This w (ESF hosting) will be offered to the TOs who have saved the cost of not employing, housing and feeding a host or two.
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FAQ
