Advice, Instructing in Europe

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skimottaret, BASS Morzine is advertising for a limited number of grade 3;s to work for them next season. Details on their website.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Spyderman, I cant find that can you post a link?

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skimottaret,

http://www.britishskischool.com/cgi-local/showtrain.cgi?full=morzine

Look at Formula 2 training program

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Spyderman, looks to me that is just a 136 hour training course plus the APC module, not a job. NewGen has a similar training programme. I also seem to remember that Phillip Stanton said BASS was not a Centre du formation and cannot hire stagiares

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skimottaret,

After all it is free

A retraction Embarassed

, now looks as though i have been misinformed regarding BASI 3's working as stagiares in France. Although i had been told verbally by Emma at Snoworks and had it in writing from NewGen that a basi 3 must have a eurotest pass I have now been told by Ali Rainbeck who is Technical Director of NewGen and a BASI trainer/examiner that the "rules have been recently changed" and that the published information they send out is incorrect and needs to be updated.

So to work as a stagiare as a grade 3 you only need a Test Technique pass as everyone but me had said before. Embarassed

It would be interesting to know if any grade 3's are actually working in France. Reading the BASI newsletter one person on the ESF gap year course in Meribel reported that although everyone on the course the previous year passed their grade 3's no one passed the TT afterwards.

skimottaret, Laughing

No problemo! wink

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Spyderman, wouldnt be the first time wink

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it is weird though as R21's website http://www.ski-coaching.com/programmes/slalom07.html clearly states that grade 2's that pass TT can work in france, NewGen's Faq's sheet said this and Emma told me that as well.

i am sure Stewart Woodward posted somewhere that after 2006 grade 3 wasnt good enough..

Now Ali recons 3's are eligible.... hmmmm

skimottaret, I think what they mean is Grade 2 Ski Teachers with test technique can work full time, rather than as Stagiere in which case you've only got 3 years.

You know it makes sense.

Spyderman, i always thought to work in france you either had to be a full ISTD or had a limited time to train to get to an ISTD whilst working as a stagiaire. so there is no time limit for ISIA's with test technique?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

skimottaret, Looks like there is a time limit with TT but not with Eurotest. I wish BASI would spell it out clearly in some sort of chart, so we all knew where we stood with employment around the world. Confused

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I think i have finally got to the Bottom of the working in France question.

Grade 3's that have passed the Test Technique can then enter the ESF system, do a two week training course and then become Stagiaires at an ESF Centre de Formation ski school.

ISIA's that have passed the TT can work for three years (or 4 seasons) at any Centre de Formation ski school (not necessarily ESF) while training for Eurotest.

ISIA's that have passed the Eurotest can work indefinitely at a ski school

Only ISTD's can work independently and take out private clients.

It appears to me (but am not 100% sure) that ISIA's with Eurotest can work at any school, i had always assumed only ISTD's could work in france at "normal" ski schools without CDF status. The reality of getting hired though may preclude this as most schools based in france seem to only hire ISTD's.

EDITED to say schools based in France as opposed to original statement of French ski schools.

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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

davidof, You are right that information as per the BASI website is definately wrong as the TT is a slalom NOT GS. I pointed that out a while back as per quote below but good spot wink

I would lose the will to live if i tried to work out the snowboarding question as well, i will leave that to someone else

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easiski, Thanks for clarifying the differences between ENSA and the ESF. It is confusing to an outsider looking in, (but not as complicated as the BASI, Snowsport GB, SSE and SSS relationship wink

)

I said the ESF as oppossed to ENSA because that what was published by BASI in the quote above, (they also incorrectly said the TT is a GS race)

I have turned into a complete pedant on this subject but would like to bottom this out. With your local knowledge could you ask euangoneskiing or someone freshly qualified in France to comment.

Does anyone know of any Grade 3's working at a CDF school (ESF or ESI or other)?

Given BASI and NewGen, a BASI partner, have published incorrect info, Emma who runs Eurotest training camps has said you need a Eurotest with a grade 3 to be stagiaire there is a lot of confusion on this topic.

Attempt number 73, any one wish to comment as to this being correct?

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skimottaret, Right ...... Typical of BASI - you can see why I've stopped bothering to pay my membership! They don't specify what 2 week course they're talking about. I'm just assuming it's the Preformation, which is supposed to be equivalent to a Grade 3 (well, it's a bit more really). However you have to pass the TT to get onto it. It used to be the case that Grade 3 was considered equivalent, but that they had to pass the TT to get their log books. I had heard that they now had to have Eurotest to be a stagiare, whereas ISIA (Grade 2) only have to have the lesser race as they're acknowledged to be at a higher level anyway.

Hmmmmm......... I will ask Jeremy (don't think Euan is here at the moment), or I will ask Robin who might know. He's also involved with the running of the ESS here and a recent (last 2 years) pass for the ISTD.

In France, you're considered a stagiare until you pass your Nationale (ISTD). Therefore an ISIA with Eurotest could work for any ski school as a stagiare indefinitely until they passed their ISTD. In a French school, every French Nationale holder can have up to 4 (I think) stagiares listed under their name. However equivalence holders don't have this right. That's why there's such a problem for the Brit schools - they don't have enough French qualifieds, and need that C de F status.

SIMS (the union for independent - not ESF ski teachers) is actively engaged on fighting for the rights of more schools to be considered C de F as this was changed recently by pressure from the ESF on ENSA and the government. They are also taking the ESF to court over using the title French, thus suggesting some sort of official body, rather than the truth of just another ski school. This court case has been mentioned in another thread.

I think you've got it right, but with BASI printing wrong info, and the goalposts changing I wouldn't want to gamble on it - it'll all be different next year! rolling eyes

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skimottaret, Yes - many ESF instructors are stagiares at various stages. Remember though, that they can be ISIA equivalent, but they're not really given anything until they get to ISTD level. Therefore, being a stagiare is no shame.

SIMS does encompass the ESIs. It's the union for all non-ESF instructors in France. Anyone can join either as an independent or working for an ESI (Brit schools are included in this category). It costs more than BASI but is much better value for money. Hopefully all Brit instructors working in France would be members. They run revalidation courses too and were working on their own equivalent training courses but were shut down as I mentioned above. Official name is Syndicat International des Moniteurs de ski. Very Happy

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easiski, Thank you, that clears up a lot. please keep us up to date with regards to SIMS and their fight to get more non ESF schools recognised with Centre de Formation status. It does seem unfair that the ESF can have 4 stagiares per national when non esf CDF schools have to have a 10 to 1 ratio and the biggest of insults non French nationals with ISTD's and Equivalence do not qualify.

I just got off the phone with Emma-carrick anderson of Snoworks who runs Eurotest and TT training at Snoworks and neither she nor her husband Phil Smith knows for sure what the current rules are regarding grade 3's and she is going to have a chat with Peter Kuwall at BASI to try to clarify this.

My suspicion is that as anyone can enter the french system after passing the TT and preformation as a first level stagiaire it may have been deemed unfair to insist that BASI 3's had to have Eurotest and that has been quietly dropped.

They are definate that ISIA's only need TT and that ties up with all the published info.

Still would be interested to hear if any non french ISIA's with Eurotest actually working in France. Or if any BASI 3's have gotten work at a CDF school.

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skimottaret, AFAIK there is a difference between any ski school which can all have stagiares providing the French Nationale rules are followed, and a C de F which actually administers training. Therefore a suitably qualified BASI instructor could work for any ski school that would take them on as a stagiare, but would have to go to a C de F to actually receive training. It's all as clear as mud, and I doubt Pete Kuwall will have any more up to date news. AS TD of BASI, presumably the fault on the website is down to him and his staff!

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You know it makes sense.

easiski, That is clear as mud, seems crazy that you can you work as a stagiaire at a school that cant offer training?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

skimottaret, But a Centre de Formation is an official training centre. Any school can offer any training it likes - but that training is not recognised by the powers that be. So a school might actually give technical training to it's students, or race training, but it would not count towards their exams. Don't forget that most Brits would consider a Grade 2 a properly qualified ski teacher, Grade 3 is a little less obvious, but they hold certs and badges. Therefore the word stagiare does not carry the same stigma or suggestion as the words trainee or apprentice would in english. It's quite important to realise this, and not think of stagiares as snotty nosed youngsters just starting out. As it takes at least a long to go through the French system as the BASI system, some stagiares may have 8-10 years experience.

Spyderman, Wouldn't like to bet on it. rolling eyes

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easiski, so if i am getting this correctly

A normal ESF or ESI ski school can have 4 stagiaires per French Nationale ISTD on their books (presumably being paid) but the students must go to a CDF for their ENSA instructor exams.

instructors with BASI qualifications can only work at CDF ski schools (for instance Magic in Motion, Supreme or ESF) while training as stagiaires, but stagiares going through the french ENSA system can work at any ski school but must take exams at a CDF?

a centre de formation training ski school must have 10 French Nationale ISTD's per 1 stagiaire trainee. I am guessing that must mean at any one time and the Students are just there for training or exam weeks occasionally. other wise the 10 to 1 ratio of teachers to students makes no sense when compared to the 4 to 1 Nationale to stagiaire ratio at the non CDF schools.

how is it that if it takes typically 6-10 years to get through the ENSA system why can you only teach as an ISIA with TT for up to 4 years before passing the Eurotest?

if first level stagiare at say grade 3 level who has passed the TT and preformation is there a time limit for the stagiaires at grade 3 level to get to ISIA?

The nightmare continues....

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skimottaret, I am pretty sure (but not certain), that a C de F school only needs to have 10 nationales - not 10 per stagiare. I've never heard of this and the ESI here who take Jeremy's stagiares certainly do not have 10 per. ENSA conducts all the exams and official training courses. The problem as I understand it was that SIMS was trying to set up a rival training and grading system and that was sat on as previously mentioned. ENSA is not all that autonomous although it's supposed to be. Historically and in reality the ESF have a pretty big stanglehold on the french system, but theoretically it doesn't. Sorry - bit convoluted there.

The French also have the same time frames to pass certain parts of their exams (or certain exams). The rules on log books and Eurotest are the same for Brits and French. However, many of them try to get the Eurotest out of the way before going onto their final cycle and eventually their final exams. I think you should look at the ENSA website. http://www.ensa.jeunesse-sports.fr/ It's all in french, but you can look up what they have to do. I wish more brits would look at the content of the other nations' exams. They might stop bleating about unfairness. Just because we don't have many mountains is not an excuse to accept lower standards, or shouldn't be.

I'm not sure that M in M or Supreme can actually take french stagiares???? Anyone can run a training course - doesn't mean you have to be a C de F. I could run one if I fancied it - wouldn't, but there you are. Shock

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

easiski, That is most helpful, the 10 to 1 ratio had been reported on other threads and didnt make a lot of sense to me. 10 French Nationales within a ski school to qualify as a CDF makes a lot more sense.

I will have a look at the link to ENSA. i am sure i will be confusing but at least will give me an excuse to try to decipher some French.

Most of the ISIA trainees i have talked too are all just working towards Eurotest and not the TT.

On balance i think the french system is pretty fair, keeps standards high and offers a good apprenticeship route while working. My only beef is the requirement to be a French Nationale to count as a training centre, equivalence only goes so far it seems...

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skimottaret ... does that mean the trainers have to be French nationals (which would seem to break the EU freedom of labour law) or merely that they have to have gone through a convoluted process that is available only in France?

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Not French "nationals" but only those instructors that qualfied through the French ENSA training system (their BASI) to "Nationale" status (the BASI 1 of ENSA)

It was reported on another thread that a school needed to be "large" (over 10 Nationales as part of the school) to get this Centre de Formation status and be able to train stagiares, and, that the trainers had to be qualified through the French system. For instance BASI 1 ISTD's that have "equivalence" and can legally teach in france do not count in the 10 Nationales rule for schools to obtain CDF status.

Apparently the reason for this 10 Nationales rule was that smaller ski schools were using "cheap" lesser qualified instructors and not really providing any actual training. BUT, surprise suprise the vast majority of schools that have over 10 nationales are the ESF plus a very few ESI schools.

Although seeming to flaunt all the labour rules seems to be correct as several "British" ski schools that offer instructor training such as BASS and NewGen dont have CDF status. It could be they dont want the red tape hassle though...

My understanding if i am reading all this correctly is that lower level BASI's can only work as stagiaires at Centre de Formation qualified ski schools unless they have at a minimum BASI 2 ISIA and Eurotest pass. They then can work at any school under the supervision of a Nationale qualified under the ENSA system.

Stagiaires going through the French ENSA system can work at any ski school under the supervision of a Nationale but take their official training courses and exams at a CDF.

confused Puzzled

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skimottaret, after posting I found that the ENSA website does have foreign translations. Still no sign of Jeremy, and I haven't been to see Robin - no time at the moment I'm afraid. I will keep it in mind though. The ENSA site may have some info, but I didn't have the time to look for it.

It's really sad that the tabloid press coverage has succeeded so well in mudying the waters about the whole equivalence thing. ENSA were the only organisation who were interested enough in the BASI system to send observers to exams and training courses and come up with equivalence proposals. Austria and Switzerland had the attitude "well you can work here for slave wages", which is not nearly so constructive. The Eurozone accord has been pushed forward by BASI and ENSA and now includes Italy and Austria. ENSA were forced to change the Eurotest to a GS rather than a special slalom, and it's far harder for an ENSA trainee to get work than it is for BASIs. After all - if you're only qualified with ISTD, then failing to be able to reach that (very high) standard completely ends your career. BASIs can easily go to other countries (as can Austrians, Italians, Germans, Spanish and many others). It would seem to me that the ENSA system punishes their own more than foreigners. However the press will never let the truth get in the way of a good story - it's just a shame that there's this constant anti-french thing going on - why?

I'm sorry to say that I'm very glad there's little chance for Grade 3s to work out here in the alps. They're not, IMO, sufficiently experienced or well trained, or technically proficient. It would be embarassing TBH.

After all it is free

easiski, i havent had time to go through the ENSA site, but will do. (my little one was competing in the National Netball championships this weekend, so it was a proud Dad weekend)

good to hear that ENSA was bothered to work with BASI, and i fully agree that the French system creates instructors of a very high technical standard. The French are strict and tough and if you fail to progress to the top level in a fair amount of time you are effectively out and can only work outside of France. I also agree with you that BASI 3's arent up the mark technically or experienced enough to teach solo in the Alps when compared to all the ISTD level instructors. But, you have to start somewhere as a trainee to get experience dont you?

I am curious as to why you say it is "far harder for an ENSA traineer to get work than a BASI" do you mean outside of France? is it because BASI is more recognised by other countries? surely out of the nearly 20,000 french instructors there must be a load of trainees.

Why do you feel a grade 3 who passes the TT isn't of a similar standard to a 1st cycle French stagiaire. I am guessing there are lots of 1st cycles within the ESF doing their apprenticeship and are not completely embarrassing the profession...

I personally would only feel competent to teach or train in the Alps with a grade 2 as when i look at grade 2's they all to me ski like "instructors" but that is one mans opinion. My personal reason for carrying on with this thread is to determine if i should work on slalom for TT or GS for Eurotest. As i will most likely never get good enough to pass the eurotest i am only realistically hoping to get to grade 2/TT and teach for a few seasons. I recon to go from a new 3 to a 2 will take me around 5 years, not being able to do a season due to family committments but it will be fun during the way wink

skimottaret, Yes - I meant outside France. there is a major language problem of course - many french are not good at learning other languages until they have to - we have a built-in advantage being natively english speaking - Oz, Kiwi, States, Canada etc. You also have to considet that the french don't get a cert or anything at a lower level, so are technically not qualified. It used to really annoy me to be told I was "non diplomé" when I was a grade 1. Soon as I got my equivalence it was fine!

Most 1er cycle really only get work during the hols. I feel that a grade 3 out here would probably expect to work most of the time. Nothing wrong with Scotland to learn your craft in - plenty of us have worked there in the past. ditto artificial slopes as you have to be very inventive to teach on such a restricted area.

It's easy to train for the TT - join the ESF competition class whenever you're there and enter all the slalom races you can every week. Once you're getting vermeil consistenly and the occasional gold, you're probably ready to give it a go.

I saw Robin today and he doesn't know the exact details - says all the Brits attached to the ESI via the ESS here are fine and happy. Very Happy

I don't know when Jeremy is back but it must be soon - I'll ask when I see him. He's sure to know as he's so involved with the whole thing (and he speaks fluent french and italian).

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Thanks again for sticking with this and i think it has clarified a very murky subject and perhaps debunked a few myths about how "unfair" the French system is.

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Advice, Instructing in Europe

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