 Poster: A snowHead
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| iainm wrote: |
One thing I can confirm is that it can get excessively busy in the departures area at LSP, with a lack of seating. Personally I don't see why Eurostar tell everyone to arrive so early. You get through security and customs so quickly that it's pointless spending extra time in departures and having more people there for longer. |
If they had the sense they would reopen Ebbsfleet and Ashford International stations. This would alleviate the crowds at St Pancras as passengers from counties south of the Thames and possibly Essex would head for the Kent stations, and those of us in Kent wouldn't have to take a train to StP and then a train virtually past our original boarding point 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| iainm wrote: |
Will be interesting to see what Travelski offer for this winter. In relation to Eurostar in general, I've travelled by Eurostar to Paris four times in the last year and all have been very smooth. My most recent check in at LSP took just 7 minutes from arriving at the ticket gate to getting into the 'departures lounge' - try that at any airport. Gare du Nord is not as good, I always leave longer, but it normally takes 20-30 mins to get through. Trains are usually full/busy, but I'm normally going Lon-Par early and Par-Lon late, so guess in the middle of the day might be less busy.
One thing I can confirm is that it can get excessively busy in the departures area at LSP, with a lack of seating. Personally I don't see why Eurostar tell everyone to arrive so early. You get through security and customs so quickly that it's pointless spending extra time in departures and having more people there for longer. |
They cant have more seating. That would mean removing the stupid overpriced perfume shop!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Damn it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The FT had a long article yesterday about Eurostar and its strategic plan. It was pretty clear that management is focussing on using Brussels as a connecting hub (since its a single station, rather than having to traipse around Paris) for pan European services, but these will be on a "connecting" rather than straight-through basis.
With the same resources (train and staff) required for a return London-BSM service, Eurostar could probably run at least 4 London-Paris/London-Brussels returns which would net c. £1k. That suggests the Alpine routes would have to see very high prices to justify their services.
It's very different to airlines, because short haul flights are quite fungible - airlines can run about as many London/Geneva pairs as they can London/Paris. The costs will be very similar. For BA, the two routes are (almost) equivalent whereas for Eurostar, LON-BSM is the equivalent of a long-haul flight.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The direct service WILL run next season. I have just been emailed the following:
There is a partial announcement for W24 and our train packages
Please find attached.
Eurostar will run the train out on Saturday and back on Sunday – so 2 day trains.
However, this will need 8 nights accommodation in resort.
The details are being worked through and so the packages will follow…..but needed to share some news as there was such speculation taking place.
Happy to pick up on a call if useful.
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@Snowfinders, if you can ask whether they will sell seat-only tickets for the train I’d be very grateful. I suspect the answer will be train plus accommodation packages will be required, as it was last winter, but it will be nice to let them know there’s demand for just the train. Ironically the 8 nights requirement will be less of an issue for those of us who already have accommodation sorted, and two daytime-services sounds perfect for me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Snowfinders, PlanetSki are reporting that this 8-day return service will include a change at Lille rather than direct from St Pancras. Has there been some miscommunication somewhere?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| @Snowfinders, if you can ask whether they will sell seat-only tickets for the train I’d be very grateful. I suspect the answer will be train plus accommodation packages will be required, as it was last winter, but it will be nice to let them know there’s demand for just the train. Ironically the 8 nights requirement will be less of an issue for those of us who already have accommodation sorted, and two daytime-services sounds perfect for me. |
I very much doubt they will be selling seat only being honest.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| @Snowfinders, PlanetSki are reporting that this 8-day return service will include a change at Lille rather than direct from St Pancras. Has there been some miscommunication somewhere? |
Sorry, I’m away in samoens with restricted access. I posted in error that it’s direct. Of that we are still yet to know. My apologies.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I got an email today from Daniel of Snowcrbon
All change. Literally.
The direct Eurostar Ski Train, which for the past two seasons was chartered and marketed exclusively by French tour operator Travelski as the Travelski Express, is very different again.
Big difference number 1: it’s no longer direct, but goes via Lille.
Big difference number 2: it’s no longer the exclusive preserve of Travelski.
Big difference number 3: It’s a daytime journey both ways: outbound on Saturdays, returning on Sundays.
So how will it work? Well, no one knows exactly yet, because negotiations are still taking place. And there’s a lot to negotiate. Here’s what we know so far.
This new service doesn't even have a name yet.
I asked Eurostar's press office about this, today. A spokesperson told me: "We will communicate an official name for the service along with all the other details soon." I'm calling it 'Eurostar ski-train service' as a working title. It's no longer called the 'Travelski Express' because it won't only be sold exclusively as part of a Travelski package.
The timetable
The actual timetable isn’t yet known. But on the outbound, skiers will leave London St Pancras on a Saturday morning by Eurostar, changing train at Lille Europe. Here they will get off the Eurostar and then get on (either on the same platform, or an adjacent one) to a ‘Eurostar continental train', according to a statement yesterday, from Eurostar.
“Eurostar continental train – what on earth is that?”, I hear you ask. It's probably a Thalys train (a high-speed Belgian train, similar to a TGV). The trains are nice, comfy and fast. But due to the merger of the companies (Eurostar and Thalys) all the Thalys trains are going to be called Eurostar trains. Or 'Eurostar continental' trains. We shall see.
The return journey back to the UK is also a daytime journey. Interestingly, it will depart the Alps on a Sunday mornings, arriving back in London on Sunday afternoons. This means that skiers will stay in the Alps for eight nights instead of the normal seven, skiing an extra day on the final Saturday of the holiday.
For tour operators offering packages with this new Eurostar service, the Saturday-out-Sunday-back poses a problem: you can’t fill accommodation every week with 8-night packages, because – obviously – there are only seven nights in a week. How this will be achieved, apparently, is still being discussed.
Have the practical repercussions really been fully thought through?
It’s not just Travelski anymore
As mentioned, Travelski will no longer have a monopoly on selling the service. Other tour operators will be invited to offer this train service too. The result will be a wider choice of holiday providers and accommodation. If Eurostar allows skiers to buy seats independently on the service, then it means that you could choose any accommodation you like.
Eight nights might prove a headache for tour operators
Will the bigger-volume British ski tour operators want to get involved? Big boys like Crystal, Inghams and Skiworld, who for years had allocations on the direct Ski Train, might conclude that this is too much hassle to get involved with, at short notice, for one season. Certainly, these operators are very keen to be able to offer rail travel to their clients. But possibly not if the logistical hassle is too great. It’s quite feasible that they don’t go for it this year and ask Eurostar to come back with a more suitable proposition. This is pure speculation, as I have no idea how the negotiations are going behind the scenes.
What if you book independently?
Whether or not skiers will be able to book the service independently, has not been confirmed. As mentioned, the fact that the train goes out on Saturday and comes back on Sunday means that the extra night’s accommodation has to be found somewhere.
An independently booked apartment or catered chalet is not going to let you stay eight nights, because it would mean that the following week they only have six nights available for the next week’s guests. So skiers using the service and booking independent accommodation might have to stay the first or last (Saturday) night in a hotel by the train station, such as in Bourg St Maurice or Moutiers. Some skiers might be fine with doing that and be able to find accommodation. Others may see that as too much hassle and uncertainty, and choose alternative rail options or choose to fly or drive. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
When will packages go on sale?
A statement from Travelski didn’t give any date that packages will go on sale, so one can only speculate. My guess would be August or September, because these things inevitably take a while to get sorted. But what do I know? So much is still up in the air.
Why didn’t Eurostar want to continue offer a direct train service to the Alps?
Eurostar, the company, now seems to live in a strange, parallel universe. The company axed the direct Disneyland Paris service last month, which is the travel equivalent of killing Santa Claus. To be fair to Eurostar, part of the problem was the stupid amount of red tape and queueing caused by Brexit, which Eurostar can do little about.
However, back when Brexit was only a twinkle in Nigel Farage’s eye, Eurostar was already gaining a reputation for being hopeless at launching or maintaining services. It launched a direct London - Lyon service and then had to cancel it. It created a London - Swiss Alps service, but failed to consult with anyone before launch, and the Eurostar Swiss Service had to be cancelled within a year. The hopeless mismanagement of Ashford, where too few trains ever stopped to make it viable. This is a company that for years has closed its doors to the outside world, paid the price for doing so and still failed to learn. It shows little sign of learning now, becoming ever more opaque. Competition on the Channel-Tunnel line is desperately needed, and will no doubt come.
Additional stops this winter
Interesting, and usefully, the Eurostar ski-train service will stop at six stations, Eurostar has confirmed. Instead of just Moutiers, Aime La Plagne and Bourg St Maurice. The additional three stops are: Chambéry, Albertville and Landry.
Chambéry is a useful intermediate station for changing onto another train to reach Modane (serving Val Cenis and Serre Chevalier) and Oulx (serving Sauze d’Oulx, Montgenevre and also Serre Chevalier)
Albertville (serving Les Saisez, Praz sur Arly and Arêches Beaufort)
Landry (serving Peisey-Vallandry, part of the Paradiski ski area, between Les Arcs and La Plagne)
Will the train stop in Ashford or Ebbsfleet?
Don’t ask. Very unlikely, I imagine. Really, It’s the hope that kills you...
Alternatives
The alternative to this new Eurostar service is to travel to the Alps by Eurostar and TGV, via Paris; or still via Lille, but with other Eurostar trains combined with TGVs. This is a great way to get there, with a wider choice of resorts overall, because the whole of the French Alps, and beyond, is your oyster. No route is perfect, but all have merits and can make the journey part of the holiday.
What the future holds
For years, I’ve suggested that there should be more options with a Eurostar to Lille Europe, combined with onward services. While I didn’t wished developments of this route to be at the expense of the direct Ski Train, at least this new via Lille service may help encourage increased capacity this way.
However, whether it will be a success, due to the logistical accommodation challenges of making it an 8-night holiday, remains to be seen. Eurostar must have done this to save costs in some way – there could be no other reason. But it may end up costing them more than they save.
What ski resorts and tour operators are increasingly realising is that rail options are not a nice-to-have but an essential. Indeed, the Three Valleys, for example, have made it one of their key growth targets for the seasons ahead. Much lobbying is needed to ensure that rail companies come to the table and offer services that the ski industry can promote. Snowcarbon is involved in this effort, but it will take many stakeholders across the board to help move things forward.
More news on this, as it comes...
As soon as there is more news and info about this, I'll make sure you are the first to know.
Help planning your holiday
If you’d like suggestions for resorts, accommodation and routes, please don’t hesitate to get in touch, and we’ll be happy to help.
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@The_Gate, Thanks. Great post.
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You know it makes sense.
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Nice post. Lots more info.
I cant see the 8 nights working. The extra days skiing acheived on the ski train were because you travelled at night. Trying to get the extra day by staying an extra night just wont fit with accomodation that is based on a 7 night cycle :/
Saturday out and Saturday back could have worked.
There is just too much unknown at the moment. My current plan this year is to fly to Italy :/
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The obvious answer would surely be Saturday out, Friday back, with 5 days of skiing? If the price was right I'd do that. I loved the day journey, hated the night one.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@greengriff, unfortunately I don't think that works. It would need a service based in Bourg St Maurice, travelling to Lille/UK on Fridays and returning Saturdays. Not that much demand for a Eurostar in Bourg for the rest of the week!
For similar reasons Saturday daytime out and back doesn't work. It would mean an empty service travelling back on Saturday night/Sunday, and an empty service going out overnight Friday to provide the return train on Saturday.
The old service of both Friday night and Saturday day services out, combined with Saturday day and Saturday night returns, worked well. With those wanting the two day services happy with 6 days skiing, and those prepared to put up with two overnights getting 8 days.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@ecureuil, Surely whatever service they decide to put on will not be empty in either direction, as the same number of skiers going out will be coming back? Maybe I'm being obtuse (very probably!) but is the issue that the operator cannot leave the Friday train parked overnight at St Pancras to pick up the next batch of skiers on Saturday morning?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| greengriff wrote: |
| @ecureuil, Surely whatever service they decide to put on will not be empty in either direction, as the same number of skiers going out will be coming back? Maybe I'm being obtuse (very probably!) but is the issue that the operator cannot leave the Friday train parked overnight at St Pancras to pick up the next batch of skiers on Saturday morning? |
Where would it sit between dropping off skiers on the Saturday to picking up skiers on the Friday?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Exactly. They run other services from London, so will use a train that returns there for other services during the week. They don't run other services from Bourg St Maurice. For a Saturday - Friday or Saturday - Saturday service people would have to be prepared to pay close to double, for running the train empty in one direction.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| sugarmoma666 wrote: |
| greengriff wrote: |
| @ecureuil, Surely whatever service they decide to put on will not be empty in either direction, as the same number of skiers going out will be coming back? Maybe I'm being obtuse (very probably!) but is the issue that the operator cannot leave the Friday train parked overnight at St Pancras to pick up the next batch of skiers on Saturday morning? |
Where would it sit between dropping off skiers on the Saturday to picking up skiers on the Friday? |
In a nearby railway yard? Passenger trains mainly don't run over night so the rolling stock has to sit somewhere. I guess it depends if they can afford to have the carriages sitting about. I guess not. But maybe they could use them for something else and then bring them back? You might be able to guess that I have no clue how railways work!!!
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 14-07-23 8:18; edited 2 times in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| Exactly. They run other services from London, so will use a train that returns there for other services during the week. They don't run other services from Bourg St Maurice. For a Saturday - Friday or Saturday - Saturday service people would have to be prepared to pay close to double, for running the train empty in one direction. |
But Bourg to Lille runs regularly, hence their new idea?
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I really hope Eurostar sort their stuff out. This has been a great service in the past. I've had bad experiences with airlines loosing my ski bag and at least on the train you can have your luggage with you at all times.
I think the only other option for me now would be self drive.
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@Triggahippy, travelling by train via Paris remains a good option even if Eurostar don't sort this.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Still no news. Tried phoning. Office closed on a Friday morning during their stated opening hours.
edit:
Just got through. Nothing concrete to report. Main sticking point the Sunday returns not lining up with Sat-Sat accommodation rentals hence requirement to book a hotel independently for the last night. Short season as per the press release could mean December-February but still very much TBC. Bookings likely to start being taken from mid August but also TBC.
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Travel via Paris is so easy tbh even with big bags. Although I don’t carry skis.
7:31 Paris to London - Saturday from £44
Return Paris to London - Saturday evening from £44.
Standard premier is £84 each way.
Paris to bourg or moutiers are not out yet. But chances are if we book the cheap Eurostar there will be TGV options
I’m thinking of going for it soon at those prices.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Interesting developments today (from press release, will update skiflightfree.org soon to include this)
Leading travel agent Skiline is offering package holidays that include rail travel for the 2023-24 winter season
Holidays with rail travel are based in France, Italy, Switzerland and Austria
All of the holidays are operated by Skiline’s partner, Inghams
Prices start at £609pp for 7 nights self-catering including return train travel from London
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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They probably sent out a survey and acted on it.
i.e. If the price was equivalent to flying but you knew you were travelling in a more eco friendly way / reduce your carbon footprint would you still choose to travel by train?
People probably indicated that they would but actually they won't. It needs to be cheaper / as convenient and more eco-friendly. Plus not with 3 changes! Although that might make for a better experience, as the straight through train was very uncomfortable.
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You know it makes sense.
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Seems to be Sat to Sat only.
I wouldn’t be overly concerned about change over times as above as better to have too much than too little.
Also they will have an Austrian option(s), sounds like St Anton at least.
Could be very promising for a taking the strain/stress out of train bookings with the need for multiple operators with different booking horizons.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| eps wrote: |
They probably sent out a survey and acted on it.
i.e. If the price was equivalent to flying but you knew you were travelling in a more eco friendly way / reduce your carbon footprint would you still choose to travel by train?
People probably indicated that they would but actually they won't. It needs to be cheaper / as convenient and more eco-friendly. Plus not with 3 changes! Although that might make for a better experience, as the straight through train was very uncomfortable. |
Agreed. The sad thing is, if there's not much take-up, it could give the impression that there's no demand. The old snowtrain and Eurostar options were potentially _more_ convenient that flying, and sometimes cheaper, which created demand. This looks like its neither.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Are there trains running from Paris to Bourg St Maurice ( not necessarily Eurostar )? Thinking of going to Paris to watch France v Ireland 6 nations ( Friday night ), then some time over that weekend get a train to Bourg St Maurice, if possible.
Return journey on the following Friday or Saturday to Paris, then Eurostar back to St Pancras.
Hoping this is possible 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you search on Trainline there's now a direct Thalys showing up in main season on Saturdays from Lille to the Tarentaise valley and back on Sundays. Not bookable at the moment and not clear if it will be. There aren't London - Lille Eurostars that line up with them at the moment. It looks very much like a work in progress.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
My most recent check in at LSP took just 7 minutes from arriving at the ticket gate to getting into the 'departures lounge' - try that at any airport.
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I've had a couple recently at about 7 minutes - Zurich, and amazingly Luton. Just walked straight up the luggage drop off, walked through straight through security and then if you count the long and winding road through the shops as departure lounge been there in under 7 minutes. However that trek past the tat shops does take some time and finding a seat sometimes can be a challenge (anyone know where there are any seats in Heathrow terminal 5?). Then you have to wait and queue to get on the plane.
Usually from the French side of Geneva airport you just walk straight through, but that only applies if you have no checked baggage.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| sugarmoma666 wrote: |
| If you search on Trainline there's now a direct Thalys showing up in main season on Saturdays from Lille to the Tarentaise valley and back on Sundays. Not bookable at the moment and not clear if it will be. There aren't London - Lille Eurostars that line up with them at the moment. It looks very much like a work in progress. |
I guess that's the service Travelski are looking to use, linking up with a London-Lille Eurostar service. But they still need to sort the 8-night accommodation problem somehow. And the return is likely to need everyone going through passport control etc at Lille, after all arriving at the same time on the Thalys service.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| IanB287 wrote: |
Are there trains running from Paris to Bourg St Maurice ( not necessarily Eurostar )? Thinking of going to Paris to watch France v Ireland 6 nations ( Friday night ), then some time over that weekend get a train to Bourg St Maurice, if possible.
Return journey on the following Friday or Saturday to Paris, then Eurostar back to St Pancras.
Hoping this is possible |
There has always been a few trains a day to Bourg from Paris. I’ve done it via Paris independently 2 or 3 times and it’s really easy. No timetable showing at the mo, but expect either early oct or nov.
I’ve booked the cheap Eurostar already. As if you wait it’s double at least.
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I've also booked a couple of Eurostar returns for next winter already. I didn't get the £44 price, but £49 is still good.
I'll keep my eye out for when SNCF fares go on sales and book them in the first 24 hours. That normally results in a good price.
I've also updated Ski Flight Free with details of the Inghams train packages (not Skiline, who were just jumping on their coattails for some PR). It's not been launched 'officially' yet. If all goes well I should be interviewing them for The Ski Podcast in due course
http://skiflightfree.org/inghams-ski-to-offer-ski-holidays-by-train/
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Looks like Travelski train details have been finalised. Only 5 departures mostly in January. Kind of wonder why they bothered. Maybe if it works well they will expand for next season.
https://www.uk.travelski.com/travelski-express
Is the Lille-Bourg service a charter only for Travelski guests only or a regular scheduled SNCF/TGV that will run throughout the season?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@hd, see post from @sugarmoma666 above.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| @hd, see post from @sugarmoma666 above. |
Those trains disappeared again 
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FAQ
