transceivers

A snowHead

GordonFreeman, 'generally' the snow allows enough air through to allow you to carry on breathing ( if the weight of snow doesn't smother you, and your mouth hasn't filled up with snow that is ). The problem is that after a certain period of time the moisture from your breath freezes on the snow and forms a barrier through which the air can no longer pass. After that point you start to suffocate fairly rapidly! The usual rule is that the first fifteen minutes are quite survivable, and your chances start to go down rapidly after that. Anything beyond half an hour and you are unlikely to get out of there alive. Not a great way to go, which is why I use ABS system where

A snowHead

markyb, delivery was quick. About 4 days or so I think.

Paid around £40 tax iirc. It came to under £200 all in for the transceiver, shovel and probe. Although it was in a sale, or something. snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

what about without? They seem to say you can breath in an airpocket but how do you form that when falling ?

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Get an avi course under your belt, they will have the answers (not always the ones you want to hear) or an experienced competent guide/techer who can drill you on the basics on the hoof.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Vitals Data: If the victim and searcher are both using Pulse transceivers (which have been configured for use in the same region, see below), the searching transceiver will report if the victim is alive by sensing tiny movement (hence the name Pulse). With multiple burials, a small heart is displayed next to victims who have any movement (e.g., breathing or arterial pulses) which can presumably be used to triage which victim to locate first.

Stupid question but who do you save first. The non breathing one might need attention first but then you don't know why they're not breathing if buried, you might waste your time when the others could be saved.
In an above ground accident you are taught to always go to the people who are not moving as anyone crying out in pain is still alive and can be looked at later.

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Having just started to venturing off-piste myself, reading through this tread raises the question, do people really carry the "holy trinity" with them at all times.

I ski with my fiancee and 2 other couples, the girls often have morning/afternoons cruising blues and the boys have a lesson (which involves off piste with the instructor
unusually not far from the marked pistes), or we play in the trees just of the edge of a run. We are out all day from lift open to lift close, meeting up all the time and have lunch somewhere on the mountain.

If at the start of the day we had to kit up and ski blues with the girls for 2/3 hours we would be in the minority, I dont see many people on piste with shovels on there back!

Its a conflict of interest I guess, it does concern me as, like the advice here in this thread I have started researching avalanche safety (excellent course toured the UK from SCGB few months ago).

I am also planning on going on the ESF "SKI discovery" in Meribel when I go in feb. This is a day away from the marked runs and I assume "kit" is provided in the price. Does
anyone have any experience of this ?

Regards

Jamie

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taemo, at 67 Euro the ski discovery day always looked attractive to me as well. please let us know if it includes avi gear hire for the day...

After all it is free

Your in a game of Russian Roulette, with avi gear 3 bullets in the gun without 4. It still a game you would be crazy to play.
Tracker v Pluse etc.......... alter the odds by small fractions of a bullet it really isn't the issue.
As I said above if you want to avoid being in the game, dont get buried in the first place, 95% of your effort should go into that.
Do a course.

jbob, It is all fine and well to say do a course but dont you still need equipment??... when you do this course do you not wear avi kit?

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skimottaret, most courses provide loan equipment, BUT its not just about equipment its about knowledge and judgment.
On a level 3 day the detailed avalanche forecast might tell you that the risky slopes are south facing over 35 deg above 2500m if when you strap on your avi gear you dont know that and/or act on it, you are still in the game just with one less bullet.
Yes you need the kit and know how to use it but if it makes you even a little bit bolder then you you can be actually worse off!
Some species of mountain animal are often found dead in avalanche debris, some never, the reason; different behavior, not different equipment.

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I dont always carry the holy trinity and will be contentious for a moment....

if i am in resort but planning to be on piste i rarely wear a backpack. I will however stick a beacon in my trouser pocket and feel that is adequate if i am within sight of the pistes. Should I see a nice patch of untracked snow on the sides i will ski it... or if just dipping in and out between pistes I feel a beacon only is still better than nothing.

You could argue this is a dumb idea and gives a false sense of security but i recon i would rather have it on me than sitting in the chalet with my backpack/shovel/probe..

jbob, i dont disagree with your logic but more the reality of the situation with respect to most occasional off piste skiers... if someone is wearing a transceiver they dont know how to operate they are still better off IMO should they get hit and buried...

i would advocate to someone who may be starting skiing off piste to 1) go and rent a beacon and first read the manual and know how to operate it. 2) buy your own and practice with it in a park or in the "avalanche zones" springing up. 3) read up on avalanches and mountain safety 4) book onto a course. 5) practice practic practice....

BUT, Not everyone will be able to afford the time/money to do a course and having some limited protection is better than none...

You know it makes sense.

skimottaret, I think we agree- but my order would be,

3. Free davidof's www.pistehors.com/ a great place to start
4. 10€ henry's avalanche talk, 70€ day with guide in group, 300€ guide for a week in group
1. 10€ a day.
5. Free
2. 300€

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

The problem is, it's incredibly easy to buy the cool toys and have the gadgets on you. However, it has to be emphasised these are crisis management tools, NOT protection. If you're in a slide, you've made a mistake, and you're in deep trouble. Around 35% (give or take 10%, I can't remember from my course) die from blunt trauma. If you're caught in a slide and buried, you're likely to be injured too - it's not like it's nice light snow burying you, it's slabs of ice from the lower layers that have released.

I dislike the idea of carrying a beacon but not shovel/probe, though I can see why it's done.

A snowHead

if you're only carrying a beacon you're saying "i want someone else to dig me out but I can't be bothered to carry the stuff which would allow me to dig someone else out"

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Then there's the old chestnut of does carrying a beacon tempt you to do stuff you wouldn't otherwise have done - would it then be offering limited protection but against an increased risk?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Also remember avalanches aren't the only added hazard when going off piste.

An injury off piste away from help
Kit breakage
Getting lost
Unexpected cliffs
Falls resulting in sliding
Fog / Cloud rolling in in unknown territory
Changing snow - breakable crust
Trees and heads don't mix very well.

Not putting you off, getting off the piste is fantastic. If i'm venturing off without a guide I tend to stick in sight of the piste, make sure I know or can see my way back to piste at all times, ski with someone else. Get on a course, read up. the Wayne Watson Off Piste book is very good.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

I always ski with a full pack. Pretty much the only time I take it off is if there are gates in the offing. I do leave the harness at home though if I'm not expecting to ski any glaciers. Even then I always carry a few slings and karabiners.

There was a salutory story posted here a couple of years back by SimonN which is well worth remembering. Ah, found it

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I could quite happily always carry (if/when I get them) a transceiver and pole with me all the time I am on the mountain. Its just the shovel that I struggle with. My little hydration sac could take the pole inside no problem but a big metal shovel on my back when skiing blue runs all morning would be a bit odd. and surely a little dangerous for a fall/collision.

If only there was a good fold out option..

brian

I usually ski with a pack on anyway. It's much better to have spare layers for the kids and space to put discarded ones than have them too hot/cold. It doesn't bother me and it's much handier than stuffing things in pockets, etc.

I only bought my own avvy gear last season but since then I've skied with it pretty much all the time. How bad would it be to see someone get in trouble, locate them with bleep and have nothing to dig them out with ? Skullie

Agree with jbob though, I'd much rather have the knowledge to pick safer lines/know when to stay on piste than the equipment to make sure they can recover my body. Confused

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If you carry your avi kit you are available to help others in trouble rather than being just a spectator. Even if you're just planning to ski with the kids that day.

A quote I heard recently was,

"Q: What do you give your mate who turns up to ski with a beacon but no shovel & probe. A: Yours!" Ta Spyderjon

You know it makes sense.

Now, one more.
If a spike from a 2 antenna transceiver happens, which can essentially report a buried victim 1-2 meters away from where they are meant to be, how are you supposed to pinpoint them exactly?
http://www.beaconreviews.com/transceivers/Spikes.htm

brian

GordonFreeman, probing, which obviously will take longer if the beacon has you a metre or 2 off, hence the need for 3 antennae beacons.

A snowHead

Are the BCAs a bit bulky to wear?

brian

The tracker ? No, not at all.

Packages available fairly cheap from Germany (no import duty). I bought from Bergzeit last year, exchange rate not so good now though.

http://www.bergzeit.de/ausruestung/wintersport/lvs-geraete/

http://www.sport-conrad.com/index.asp?disp=kategorie&kat_id=35

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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We both wear our beepers every day we go on the mountain, so that we have them in case either of us needed to help search for someone. We almost always take the pack with shovel and probe as well, and since mine's already in my ABS pack, I usually take that too. I don't find it too heavy as I'm used to it.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

you wear the transceiver in the middle of your stomach or off to the side?
I can see how carrying it in your backpack or trousers is common but what do people think of that?

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GordonFreeman, to difficult to get to in a hurry.

i have just read this
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0805-time-to-retire-the-ortovox-f1/

being that me my other half and the boy have one of these i'm a little concerned, i just do not have the funds to replace 3 trancievers.
your comments on this would be most interesting

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GordonFreeman,

Not much use if seperated from you body..which a pack could be.

After all it is free

snowangel., interesting comments about the different pulse rates of the different transcievers. I've always thought that a good thing as it does then allow you to distinguish between different transmitters - you can lock onto a faster one or a slower one. One of the major plus points in my decision to get a Barryvox Pulse was the ability to switch all the fancy stuff off (just hold down the two buttons at once) and get back to the raw unprocessed analogue signal, so you can make your own mind up about how many signals there are - and whether any of them are mobile phones etc..

The issue about frequency drift and failing signal intensity would be the only things in that article that would concern me. But as you have three of them, you can do a check yourself on each transceiver against the other two and see if you have a range problem. But remember that the F1 starts out with the best range of pretty much any transceiver on the market, so you'll have to be failing fairly badly before you get worse than e.g. the Tracker (and certainly the X1..which is crap). As you know how to use it, and if th range proves OK, don't worry about it....until it dies for good.

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GordonFreeman, yeh i did and have looked but when you have to buy 3 of them its not much help as its a lot of money. I know we are talking about life here, dont get me wrong, i have a use my tranciever all the time as do we all, they were expensive enough the first time. Just a bit of a shock to now be looking at £600 for a new lot. which will be hard to find

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