done innsbruck once. got in ok albiet a bit lively.. on way out everyone managed to get away except us as our B.A. pilot wouldnt land due to visibility.. had to stay the night n bused to munich next morning where he had found an airport he liked.. waffled on about soem landing system that innsbruck doesnt have.. didnt seem to stop the 2 thomson flights and half a dozen air austria flights getting down and back off again ..
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Only flown there once. Long delays on outbound flight which was eventually diverted to Salzburg. Ended up arriving in resort at 3am. Ski rental shops closed by then, surprisingly. It transpired that the airport closes at 8pm so I would always book a morning flight if going there again as even a short delay on a mid afternoon flight could result in a diversion.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DCG, first flights out of any airport at the beginning of a trip helps to reduce the risk of delay, especially with Easyjet etc who tend to shuttle the same aircraft to and from a destination maybe 3 times a day. On the way back I do not normally care
Only flown there once. Long delays on outbound flight which was eventually diverted to Salzburg. Ended up arriving in resort at 3am. Ski rental shops closed by then, surprisingly. It transpired that the airport closes at 8pm so I would always book a morning flight if going there again as even a short delay on a mid afternoon flight could result in a diversion.
Good point DCG. The airport has housing very close by, I can imagine why they want it closed at 8pm!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rayscoops wrote:
DCG, first flights out of any airport at the beginning of a trip helps to reduce the risk of delay
Agreed, but the special factor here is the early time of closure. Maybe this is common, but I would have expected something closer to 11pm to be a reasonable closing time.
Some of the group went out last Monday. Their plane was diverted to Munich because of fog in the Inn valley.
The same thing happened to us on Wednesday.Our pilot said they need 3km of visibilty to land there. It was down to 500m.
So now, on 2 out of my 4 flights to Innsbruck, we have been diverted. But both times we also circled for ages hoping for the fog to clear, which was a bore.
Another friend took the Sunday afternoon easyjet flight from INN to LGW a few weeks ago. It could only carry a small amount of fuel so the plane was light enough to clear the mountains; it then topped up fuel at Munich . 4 hour delay all in all.
Innsbruck airport is brilliant when it works - so convenient for a number of resorts, friendly staff, bags checked in/ returned quickly, and great restaurant landside with fantastic views. But I'd really think twice about using it in future.
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Nielsons have stopped using it for pretty well all of the resorts to the West, according to the reps in Niederau last week, just because of reliability issues.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
Innsbruck airport is brilliant when it works
you can say the same about Chambery - fly in on a tuesday, out in a few minutes, park free a few yards from the terminal. But......on a busy day when it goes wrong, bad weather.... not good.
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Wonder why planes can land at say Gatwick in fog but not Innsbruck. I know there's the little matter of massive mountains nearby but in Gatwick there are buildings, and other planes buzzing around.
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There is no precision approach to Innsbruck, so it needs better visibility to land in compared to Gatwick, and those mountains are friggin close for a big passenger jet ! Chambery is another alpine airport that has similar restrictions so if you don't like a gamble on your flight out avoid that too.
Some years are worse than others due to the weather but its the weather that us skiers need...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
2planks, re your last point, true but the fog seems to sometimes haunt the Inn valley first thing even if it's a fine day. If I do use Innsbruck again then I definitely wouldn't arrange for a taxi to pick me up from the resort (as lots on our plane seemed to) and I'd have a Get-there-from-Munich-contingency-plan worked out.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
jonm, You've obviously never flown into the old Hong Kong Kai Tak airport! Makes the Innsbruck landing look positively horizontal.
BTW, flown into Innsbruck a dozen times and never had a problem (apart from late skis).
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I've flown in and out of Innsbruck many, many times now, and I've only been delayed once (for about 2 hours, I think) - though I have taken off/landed whilst it was snowing a couple of times. I think who you fly with makes a difference, Lufthansa (who sometimes use Tirolean) seem to cope with the weather much better than, say, Easyjet.
The mountains are pretty damn close to the airport though, it's weird seeing planes flying along BENEATH my flat...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pjd wrote:
Another friend took the Sunday afternoon easyjet flight from INN to LGW a few weeks ago. It could only carry a small amount of fuel so the plane was light enough to clear the mountains; it then topped up fuel at Munich . 4 hour delay all in all.
Well that's a new one on me. I don't believe it (yes, you can do the Victor M voice), a modern Airbus pops up like a cork, they must have had another reason.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
tail winds?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
clarky999 wrote:
I've flown in and out of Innsbruck many, many times now, and I've only been delayed once (for about 2 hours, I think) - though I have taken off/landed whilst it was snowing a couple of times. I think who you fly with makes a difference, Lufthansa (who sometimes use Tirolean) seem to cope with the weather much better than, say, Easyjet.
Indeed. Crystal used to use (and may still do) Lauda Air for their flights from Bristol - Innsbruck, and I was on that one year when it was snowing quite heavily. All the flights using UK carriers were diverted to Verona, with passengers being bussed down there, while my flight took off from Innsbruck just 10 minutes late.
Quote:
The mountains are pretty damn close to the airport though, it's weird seeing planes flying along BENEATH my flat...
It also quite weird when landing in the evening, to have the mountains close enough to be able to see the lights of the piste bashers working above you as you come in.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Only flown to Innsbruck once and it was fine but going again on 2nd March so fingers crossed. Flying very early AM so bit worried about the potential fog. Four years ago we flew into Munich without problem but two mates, who were meeting us in resort, booked to Innsbruck and were diverted to Verona, had a long wait for a coach and a long transfer. By all accounts Verona airport was in complete chaos.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I've flown many times to Innsbruck and had my first delay on Saturday. We were about 2 hours late leaving due to some de-icing issues.
Well that's a new one on me. I don't believe it (yes, you can do the Victor M voice), a modern Airbus pops up like a cork, they must have had another reason.
Does seem a bit odd - but they do have to have the performance to clear the mountains on one engine. I know this is a factor at Chambery - where sometimes skis get left behind.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Bode Swiller wrote:
pjd wrote:
Another friend took the Sunday afternoon easyjet flight from INN to LGW a few weeks ago. It could only carry a small amount of fuel so the plane was light enough to clear the mountains; it then topped up fuel at Munich . 4 hour delay all in all.
Well that's a new one on me. I don't believe it (yes, you can do the Victor M voice), a modern Airbus pops up like a cork, they must have had another reason.
If it had been foggy on take off or the runway contaminated, that really restricts the weight the airbus can carry out of Innsbruck, because you need good climb performance if you can't see the mountains, it's all to do with performance if one engine fails.
Two engine performance is never an issue, worst case scenario is always covered (well apart from a double engine failure)
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chocksaway wrote:
2planks,
Quote:
If it had been foggy on take off
engine anti icing reducing power available??
Nope, there's a single engine escape route up the valley off 26, follows the river up to Telfs. Iirc if it's low vis and rwy 26 is in use then the take off weight is very restricted as the escape route is a visual manouevre.
It should not affect an aircraft like the 757 as that has more power than Thor have no idea about the 737 as not allowed to go to Innsbruck, as its cat c qualified crew only.
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After all it is free
Quote:
the escape route is a visual manouevre
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2planks,
Quote:
Nope, there's a single engine escape route up the valley off 26, follows the river up to Telfs.
Fantastic - the Machynlleth Loop in a 737/321 legally - what an opportunity!
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We were diverted to Friedrichshafen from Innsbruck at Christmas due to fog (Monarch). One flight (Austrian Airways) made it in before they decided the fog had deteriorated again.
There was fog again on the way out, our flight was ok but others were delayed. One of the flights people from our chalet was on was diverted in advance apparently as a precaution due to possible fog, although we thought it might be a staffing thing (not that I know much!)
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Yes, chocksaway, but not in Wales fortunately . And the INN valley is far prettier! Besides, doing that loop around Telfs & Wildermieming in a 737 means you've lost an engine, which wouldn't feel like a great opportunity!! Obviously with the surrounding mountains there are some fairly restrictive weather minimums and maximum weights that we have to abide by that makes it more susceptible than the average airport to delays/diversions.
There's a fair bit of misinformation in this thread (the Brits and the local airlines all operate to the same rules, in theory!), and while I don't want to confuse anyone by getting too technical, here's a quick outline for you...
There are a few ways to get in. The 'normal' way in is an (almost straight in, much steeper than usual) ILS onto the westerly runway. While at somewhere like LGW the plane can autoland with as good as zero visibility, on this approach we still need a cloudbase roughly 1,000ft above the airport and a visibility of 3,000m. So you can see why there may be problems in poor weather. For passengers, window seat on the left is best - just before our final turn (about 20 miles out) you may be able to spot the SkiWelt in the distance, just after the turn you can see the valley towards Mayrhofen, and on very short finals the ski jump.
If the wind favours the other (easterly) runway, you have to do a visual approach, so the weather has to be better than the limits mentioned above (cloudbase roughly 2,000ft above the airport and viz 5,000m). To do this we follow the ILS as above (from the east, towards the west), but about 6 miles from the airport break off left and do a circuit above the 'shelf' to the south - roughly speaking it's over the ski jump & Brenner Pass (will be bumpy here for a brief while if the Foehn is blowing through the pass), aim at the church spire in Axams, turn sharp right (this turn is through 180 degrees and our window is full of the Martinswand cliff/mountain right in front of us, so it makes you want to turn rather sharply!!!) and start final descent to line up with the easterly runway - there was a youtube link on the previous page which shows this turn over Axams. Alternatively, if the valley is bathed in beautiful weather we can do a long visual arrival all the way down the valley from the west, which is even more beautiful. Both of these visual approaches are great fun in good weather and there are some amazing views to be had from the window seats, again the left side is best! We often do one of these visual approaches by choice in the good weather of summer!!
The departure gets very complicated, and I might have to think of how best to describe it all without greatly confusing us all. Erm, I'll try, but sorry if it's gibberish.....
Suffice it to say that it depends hugely on the weather and the plane you're in - 2planks has it spot on (I think we work for the same company...?). A 757 largely has very few problems due to being somewhat 'over powered'! A 737 or an Airbus can indeed have weight problems and require a fuel stop in some weight and weather conditions. It is to do with a combination of single engine performance and weather - if the weather is good we can elect to use a visual escape manoeuvre in the event of an engine failure, if it is bad we have to use an instrument escape manoeuvre. These are dependant on the weather obviously and then in turn limit what maximum speed we can fly at which in turn limits what weight we can take off at, and that's all dependant on the weather actually being good enough to take off at all (similar weather minimums to the approaches above). The instrument ones are obviously more restrictive in terms of performance (poor weather --> lower max speed --> lower max take off weight) and so once again you can see that poor weather can cause problems. With a limited permitted weight we cannot generally offload baggage (as there are rarely any later flights that day to repatriate said bags, it's not like Geneva with lots of flights per day!), which leaves us only one option - take less fuel and have to stop on the way home to refuel. Bode Swiller - while it may indeed feel like they 'pop up like a cork', those are very big mountains and they would look even bigger if you lose 1 engine which is how all the calculations have to be done.
A contaminated runway (snow etc.) brings in a whole new set of problems, but I'm knackered now....!
I hope some of this makes sense, sorry if I'm not terribly good at explaining it in an understandable way. Any questions, just ask - I'll answer if I can.
Cheers
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Billy M, Really helpful and interesting, thanks. Are there any figures re the percentage of flights that get diverted to/from INN? Is INN worse here than other ski destination airports? Certainly seems that way apart from Chambery.
Also I'm still a bit puzzled as to why a plane can land at LGW with zero visibility but cannot do so at INN Is it to do with the technical equipment at the airports? 2planks - is this the precision approach that you mention.?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Billy M,
Quote:
Besides, doing that loop around Telfs & Wildermieming in a 737 means you've lost an engine, which wouldn't feel like a great opportunity!!
Sixpence - half a crown! Any chance of getting the company to let you practice with 2 (or would that be in the sim??)
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Billy M, very interesting, thanks!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
What pjd and clarky999, said about interesting.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Billy M
Quick question to you.
Have a little knowledge of flying (rotary) but in your opinion, do they do a bit of overkill with the de-icing at Gatwick? They took ages spraying the whole aircraft including the body, when in reality its the leading edges and the rest of the wings that have the problem. On the way back from Munich we taxiied to the end of the runway where we were de-iced in a fraction of the time and only done the wings and tail.
3 hour delay on the way out waiting for a slot and de-icing. It was taking at least 20 minutes per aircraft.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Thanks Billy M,
very good write up.
I know this thread is about Innsbruck, but having flown into and out of Chambery 20-30 times, and only once had any delay, which was o the way back in 2006 iirc. I am unable to find any detailed data about actual delays or cancellations into and out of Chambery. Flying Bhx to Cmf on Sunday so fingers crossed.
Nb with regards to the one delay, other planes were taking off, it just seemed our pilot decided against it, and the shed was full to brimming so it was pretty horrible. Followed by a bus to grenoble, where they unloaded a plane full of people and put us on the plane, get in the air and pilot says cant fly into bhx as runway will be closed by the time we get there, divert to East Midlands, wait 90 minutes for a coach to BHX. I think total transfer time was 22 hours.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
jafa,
I can answer your Q. The rules for airframe contamination (ice, snow) are quite explicit, all UK airlines operate a clean airframe policy so that includes the fuselage (body) of the aircraft.
You are only allowed a thin hoar frost on the fuselage through which you should be able to read the logo of the airline.
That might explain why they de-iced the whole aircraft, either that or the de-icers were on a bonus per litre
So if the UK airlines (Easyjet) operate this rule, is it not reasonable to expect the same standard of de-icing no matter where its done. They really were going to town on the 20th of Jan at gatwick, whereby when we flew back the following sunday from Munich a quck spray over the wings and tail and we were off.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
You don't get many flights diverted to Innsbruck because of the weather at Munich.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
pjd - I'm sure the company have some figures, but I have no idea what percentage divert I'm afraid. Personally I've never diverted from there, but have been close a few times. I've struggled once or twice with departing more than arriving - have to just sit there and wait for the weather conditions to improve to a level we can quickly get away. We used to have 737-300's and they were more restrictive, now it's all 737-800's (and 757's) the likelihood of problems is reduced as they have better performance. There are many reasons why at INN you could not autoland with no vis while you can at LGW - not least of which is the fact that for an autoland the plane precisely follows the ILS (glideslope vertically, localiser horizontally) all the way down the approach and along the runway, and at INN the ILS isn't actually lined up with the runway due to the terrain that the runway points at, so you'd land next to the airport on the houses!! While it is an ILS to the westerly runway, because of this offset from the runway the final part is actually a visual turn (even if it is only a very slight turn to line up with the runway).
chocksaway - yup, we do plenty of practising of it (on 2 engines and 1), but it's done once a year in the sim which we have to do to remain qualified to operate to INN. This is in addition to the 'normal' sim training/checking we do twice a year. But in summer (in good weather) we will often visually approach and depart in the valley to the west (Telfs/Wildermieming) as it's pretty much the most direct route in the direction of the UK. Plus it has beautiful views - when we're low you're between the mountains, then once we're above the Minimum Safe Altitude and climbing away we're cleared a right turn which usually coincides nicely with a great view as we circle around the Zugspitze with Garmisch beyond. Cracking views! Rare to do this in winter though, in my experience - the summer walkers get the best views!
jafa - I think 2planks answered that better than I could. It's worth the wait though to get rid of your ice - Google 'Potomac Air Crash' to see the consequences. Some airports are set up for it better than others, but either way it has to be done. That Russian video is quite amazing, sends a shiver down my spine every time I see it!
ansta1 - as above, I'm sure the stats exist for number of delays or diversions from a specific airport, but I haven't seen them I'm afraid. Just because other planes have taken off/landed and you don't, doesn't mean your pilots bottled it!!! It probably means he legally couldn't do so/had a very good reason not to! If weather conditions are close to limits, some may just get away while the next in line gets unlucky with a slight change in wind. They may also be at different weights/performance and therefore weather limits (as briefly discussed in earlier post). 22 hours sounds like a fairly horrendous day though - I hope you had good snow to make it worthwhile!
Cheers all.
After all it is free
After all it is free
jafa, there may have been very different conditions between the two. Maybe leaving LGW the plane had been sat there all night gaining a nice thick coat of snow & ice that needed getting rid of? While at Munich the plane had just arrived (clean of snow & ice) and just gained a small amount on the turnaround which needed de-icing?
Wings are fairly susceptible to ice (in comparison to the fuselage) on a turnaround down-route due to the contents (fuel) becoming very cold over the course of the flight over, and that freezes any liquid on the wings pretty quickly! Overnight (before you left LGW) both the wings and fuselage will have been sat there in freezing conditions.
Who knows? Without knowing the circumstances it's impossible to say.
Last edited by After all it is free on Wed 6-02-13 18:16; edited 1 time in total
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Great, thanks Billy M,
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
jafa, So there was probably snow/ice on the fuselage in slackwick so they had to spray the whole scarebus, whereas in Muc it was a turnaround and maybe no snow/ice on the fuselage but falling light snow (at a guess) so wings and tails had to be done.
Tbh I tend to listen to the de-icers in the colder airports as they have a lot of experience in what to spray.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
have no idea about the 737 as not allowed to go to Innsbruck, as its cat c qualified crew only.
