 Poster: A snowHead
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The ESI in Les Saisies offers days to explore the Espace Diamant. they are paid (can't remember how much) but they seem to have a reasonable take-up and, as with this Evo2 effort, will probably have helped them sell lessons. They have also, for many years, offered free introductory cross-country lessons (both classic and skating) on Sunday mornings. I always use the ESI for myself and visitors, and know a couple of the instructors quite well (it unnerves me how one of them will whoosh up behind me when I am wearing some unfamiliar outfit and know exactly who I am.  ).
I've had group cross-country lessons with ESF (very good, very small group, guy didn't admit to speaking even one word of English so a week's "free" French lessons too  ) and a private lesson off-piste (not good at all, though the guy's English was, if anything, better than mine).
The more competition they have to deal with, the better. They are very rarely the only show in town though they do, in our neck of the woods in any case, seem to be the ski school of choice for French families who are serious about their kids skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well done Crystal for taking a stand - I am amazed Ski Club Leaders are still tolerated in France - maybe they will be the next target for the ESF?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Another "Well Done Crystal" from me. Simon Cross (Crystal Managing Director and sometimes a poster here on Snowheads) may say that the decision to go with Evolution 2 was based purely on the commercial merits of the deal, but I think we will allow him a small element of Schadenfreude for "sticking it to the ESF".... 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Simon Cross (Crystal Managing Director and sometimes a poster here on Snowheads)
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It's not him, it's their social media guy pretending to be him
But yeah, well done Crystal.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, FFS You'll be telling us Father Christmas isn't real next! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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He still owes me a tenner.
Father Christmas, not Simon Cross.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| Simon Cross (Crystal Managing Director and sometimes a poster here on Snowheads) |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| [It's not him, it's their social media guy pretending to be him |
Somebody could get Cross about that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
Bode Swiller, You've shattered my illusion! 
However, Father Christmas definitely exists, as I saw him descend by parachute onto the Kitzbühel nursery slopes... |
Well I saw him parapente onto the nursery slopes at Ellmau one 24th and he ran behind a shed and a better dressed Santa with a bushier beard ran out. I am beginning to wonder.
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Bode Swiller, well please don't comment on the Tooth Fairy, I've had enough disillusionment for one day...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Am I the only one who didn't read it as Crystal getting one over ESF?
99.9% of Evolution 2 instructors will have come from an ESF background, will therefore be French/have the French quals. An increase in their numbers of previously ESF-employed instructors will mean more vacancies within ESF and more new French/French-trained instructors on the slopes.
All this does is prolong the nonsense that only French quals are good enough. Is ESF going to lose some money? Possibly. But the money that's 'lost' is staying firmly in the French economy regardless.
Good a reason as any as to why I'm heading to Japan for the season.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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thedrewski, going all the way to Japan in protest at the 'locals-only' policy of the French ski industry is pretty damn committed to the cause!
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 23-09-13 8:07; edited 1 time in total
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It also gets you closer to sushi
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You know it makes sense.
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Do you mean Sochi?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| thedrewski wrote: |
Am I the only one who didn't read it as Crystal getting one over ESF?
99.9% of Evolution 2 instructors will have come from an ESF background, will therefore be French/have the French quals. An increase in their numbers of previously ESF-employed instructors will mean more vacancies within ESF and more new French/French-trained instructors on the slopes.
All this does is prolong the nonsense that only French quals are good enough. Is ESF going to lose some money? Possibly. But the money that's 'lost' is staying firmly in the French economy regardless.
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^ This hits the nail on head.
It is a clear victory for the French.
The French ski school system is set up so that
1) The number of qualified instructors is strictly limited, thus there is always plenty work for everyone
2) The ESF (a workers co-op) is always the main training center for almost all French ski instructors
3) Wages are artificially high and people can make a good living teaching skiing.
Ironically the British ski schools operating in France clearly benefit well from this system.
Planet Ski is doing a good job of constantly stirring up anti-French sentiment in the forums / media.
However people should step back and look at the bigger picture.
IMHO it is their country, and we don't have a right to dictate to them what the rules for "ski hosting / teaching" should be.
The ESF, which is something of a French institution, aren't worried as there will still be plenty work for their 17 000 members next winter.
Right or wrong that is just the way it is.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Wages are artificially high and people can make a good living teaching skiing.
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People keep saying that, but prices of lessons in France are not higher than in other countries (and private lessons with the ESF are very often cheaper, sometimes a lot cheaper, than with the "British" school, and a lot cheaper than North America). So, if French instructors get to "take home" more money, that suggests that their schools are being run much more efficiently (which, on the face of it, seems improbable).
The three French instructors I know best work in the summer as a motorcycle instructor, a builder and a farmer - making cheese. they don't strike me as being especially well off; I suspect they earn considerably less than most snowheads.
I really don't see why people should object if most of the profit from tourism in France stays in France. I would certainly hope that most of the profit from tourism in Britain stays in Britain!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
It is a clear victory for the French.
The French ski school system is set up so that
1) The number of qualified instructors is strictly limited, thus there is always plenty work for everyone
2) The ESF (a workers co-op) is always the main training center for almost all French ski instructors
3) Wages are artificially high and people can make a good living teaching skiing.
Ironically the British ski schools operating in France clearly benefit well from this system.
Planet Ski is doing a good job of constantly stirring up anti-French sentiment in the forums / media.
However people should step back and look at the bigger picture.
IMHO it is their country, and we don't have a right to dictate to them what the rules for "ski hosting / teaching" should be.
The ESF, which is something of a French institution, aren't worried as there will still be plenty work for their 17 000 members next winter.
Right or wrong that is just the way it is. |
I agree with what you say, except that as regards "IMHO it is their country, and we don't have a right to dictate to them what the rules for "ski hosting / teaching" should be" of course as France is a member of the EU then in some circumstances the EU can dictate what the rules for ski hosting/teaching should be.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
The French ski school system is set up so that
1) The number of qualified instructors is strictly limited, thus there is always plenty work for everyone
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I think you'll find that most ESF instructors who aren't high up the priority list in their school would disagree. Even in the mighty 3V there are an awful lot of ESF instructors who don't have much work for January (after the New Year/Russian weeks), and then again in March (and April once Easter weekend has been and gone). A lot of younger French instructors I know head off on ski holidays/road trips mid-late Jan...
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^ Sounds like a terrible life
I am not saying that teaching skiing is an easy way to make a living.
Though if you want to make a full time living teaching skiing then France is clearly one of the best place to do it (in part because of the system).
FWIW I think there should be some qualification for ski hosts - therefore the French are not being totally unreasonable.
The real question is what level that qualification should be ?
If someone was bold they could use SNSC ski leaders for the ski hosting role.
However you would need deep pockets to convince the EU courts this was a suitable / equivalent qualification.
And also that 'ski hosting' is different from 'ski teaching' (I suspect in many French minds there is no distinction).
Plant Ski is again stirring up anti French sentiment today asking if "Brits will stop skiing in France".
However AFAIK all ski hosting in St Anton (for example) also requires a basic ski instructor qualification.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 23-09-13 10:31; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
And also that 'ski hosting' is different from 'ski teaching' |
They are worlds apart. The ESF guys have to learn both phrases, SKI hosts only have to say "follow me"
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ^ Sounds like a terrible life |
It is if you actually want to try and make a living ... Yes there are many instructors (myself included) working as much as we want all winter long but, as the thread/conversation was about ESF in particular, the reality for a lot of their instructors is that there are maybe 8 busy weeks (max) in the winter and the rest can be quite scratchy - fine if you are young with no commitments and happy to live cheaply and do lots of skiing, not so good if you have many overheads etc...
And bear in mind that anyone fiscally resident in France (ie the majority of ESF instructors) will be paying approx 45% of earnings in social security, which takes a fair chunk out of a days pay (before you even get as far as the taxman...).
off topic. - what are you up to this winter M. Haggistrap?
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and I still want to know how, if the French are paying their instructors so generously, they can run so efficiently that they can offer lessons at, or sometimes well below, the cost of lessons elsewhere. Bit of a myth, if you ask me.
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^ All fair points OffPisteSkiing
I have no doubts that making a full time career from ski teaching can be tough even if you work 16-20 weeks a year.
There is always "summer" to worry about.
| Quote: |
| what are you up to this winter M. Haggistrap? |
1st child due in Feb... (eeek!). So will need to get some turns in before then.
Finally getting around to ticking off some L3 modules and also make some turn at home + abroad.
No doubt some arm chair quarterbacking & heckling on various geeky ski forums in between
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| and I still want to know how, if the French are paying their instructors so generously, they can run so efficiently that they can offer lessons at, or sometimes well below, the cost of lessons elsewhere. Bit of a myth, if you ask me. |
AFAIK the ESF is like a giant pyramid scheme.
The stagieres / trainees get low pay and their earnings go back into the pot.
However once fully qualified then they can make a full time career out of it and climb up the hierarchy where the wages will support a family.
The French see ski teaching as a profession, rather than a seasonal job you might do for a few winters.
The ESF system is somewhat key to that. Only British L4s (the very top level qualification) can work at all in France, but they can subsequently receive the highest wages and make a reasonable career there.
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Sorry double post
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 23-09-13 20:31; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Fully qualified ESF instructors approx €55/hr less 6-10% for office overheads etc. So €49.50-51.70/hr
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I use an ESI with (almost all) French instructors. I can get a private lesson with one of the most senior instructors, for 1 - 3 people, from €40 - 47 euros an hour (the higher price is in school holidays).
Which suggests that, with office overheads etc, the instructors are getting rather less than that. The ESF prices are much the same (or they wouldn't be getting much custom). In low season group lessons are €95 for 5 x 2 hours, maximum group size of 10 - a bit more expensive in school holidays. The last group lessons I was involved with had a lot fewer than 10 people - 2 young girls I booked into group lessons at Easter had 4 to start with, and then one dropped out. Top instructor, again - the one I usually recommend to friends. The last ESF group I did, cross-country, had 5 to start with, dropped to 4 after the second day. So, an average gross income of €47 an hour for that group - and the instructor was so concerned about the girl who dropped out, very distressed after several heavy falls on the first morning, that he offered to give her a private lesson later in the week.
They are not exactly raking it in. If instructors in Austria and elsewhere are being ripped off by ski schools and paid a lot less then they need to get their act together and adopt something along the lines of the French co-operative system. If they only have low level qualifications, of course, then they are hardly in a position to bargain.
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pam w,
A quick Google of ESF prices, and they vary significantly, with Les Saisies coming out pretty well.
From the various ESF websites:
Val d'Isere 2 hours 45€ (lunchtime only)
Les Saisies 2 hours 64€ (low season) - 90€ (high season)
La Bresse 2 hours 74€
Avoriaz 2 hours 83€ - 93€
Tignes, 3 hours 163€ (equiv 2 hrs 108) - 179€ (equiv 2 hrs 119)
Courchevel 2 hours 100€ - 130€
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You know it makes sense.
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musher, Val d'Isere is a particular bargain, isn't it? Makes up for those expensive drinks. So, perhaps we should conclude that the amount you pay for a private session with an ESF instructor varies quite a bit, depending on resort, but in most of your sample the gross earnings for the ski school are less than €55 an hour, sometimes considerably less. So instructors are presumably getting less than that.
Would a sample of Italian and Austrian private lesson prices come up with lower costs, I wonder? I suspect not, on average, probably with a similar range between resorts. A 2 hour lesson in the Arlberg ski school in St anton is €180 (more expensive than any of your French sample), Alpbach a much more reasonable €90 - 105.
So, on the face of it, French instructors are not necessarily getting paid more than those in other countries. Or if they are, perhaps that's because the latter are being ripped off by their employers?
Fortunately there is an ever-growing choice of ski schools in France, including quite a lot of British ones and French ones other than the ESF. Competition, as ever, is probably the best guarantee of reasonable prices for consumers.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
musher
So, on the face of it, French instructors are not necessarily getting paid more than those in other countries. . |
A ski instructor anywhere else in the world (USA, Canada, Scotland, Japan, Austria or Switzerland) will get paid between £12->25 an hour, depending on experience. That is at least half what you could make in France once fully qualified.
There is a good reason over 90% of BASI L4's work in France...
In other nations it is really difficult to make ski teaching a full time career.
At the end of the day it depends if you think ski teaching is something you do as a full time career ?
Or is it a seasonal job that you do on a casual lifestyle basis for a few winters ?
IMHO both "models" have merits for both employee and the customer.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| musher wrote: |
pam w,
A quick Google of ESF prices, and they vary significantly, with Les Saisies coming out pretty well.
From the various ESF websites:
Val d'Isere 2 hours 45€ (lunchtime only)
Les Saisies 2 hours 64€ (low season) - 90€ (high season)
La Bresse 2 hours 74€
Avoriaz 2 hours 83€ - 93€
Tignes, 3 hours 163€ (equiv 2 hrs 108) - 179€ (equiv 2 hrs 119)
Courchevel 2 hours 100€ - 130€ |
I don't think you are comparing like with like.
Val D lunchtime lessons are always cheaper than morning or afternoon.
Les Saisies lessons are for 2 people with additional costs for additional people. Tignes is for 5 people.
Please compare like for like and add in a few British ski schools to see what the prices really are.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stewart woodward, it's difficult to compare like with like, but if you can get a 1 hour private lesson for €37 - 43 it doesn't seem likely that the instructor is being paid €55? Tignes Le Lac offers a private lesson from 1 - 3 people for €48 at lunchtime - another good price. And that would be a good time to ski in school holiday times.
My point is that, given those prices, it doesn't seem likely that, on the whole, French instructors are being paid massively more than the competition in other countries, despite claims that French instructors are highly paid and protected from competition. So what's the excuse for the very high prices in St Anton? Couldn't be another of those Austrian cartels, by any chance?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stewart woodward,
Not the best of comparisons I know, but every ESF school seems to offer completely different options for private lessons. I thought the Tignes private lesson was "for up to 5 persons" - my understanding, not their quote. Similar for Les Saisies only 3 not 5, but my French is schoolboy at best
Still, other than VdI it came out pretty much as you would have expected.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Pam W... despite claims that French instructors are highly paid and protected from competition. |
France is the only country in the world that requires a Euro Test.
Pretty much anywhere else I could turn up with a L3 (ISIA) and be considered fully qualified.
However I would only get paid about 20-25 euros an hour on average.
People like to think the Euro Test is to keep the Brits out. Actually it also keeps the Parisians out
Thus restricting the total numbers able to work in France by setting the bar high.
It is their country - which is why (IMHO) I think it is arrogant to try and change their system.
If you don't like it them go work elsewhere.
The system works for the French : and also the Brits that make the effort to jump through the same hoops in order to make skiing a career.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 23-09-13 16:32; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, Surely everyone is saying that most French instructors aren't exactly highly paid just possibly less badly paid than in other countries and the actual price of the product is certainly not linearly correlated with what instructors earn anywhere - take e.g the US where I've just seen someone has quoted $479 for a 3 hour private at Squaw (probably worth it if it included JT Holmes taking you BASE jumping), I'm pretty certain our own skinanny doesn't get to see much of that.
There will of course be local variation in pricing and frankly I suspect exactly no-one is surprised that a family-orientated predominantly francophone resort like Les Saisies is cheaper than somewhere like Val D'Ispere even for lessons with the same "national" franchise. Otherwise of course you're spot on, in the absence of limitless competition/frequent incomers most resorts will default to cartel like pricing at a level the market will bear and that ensures a fair slice of action for everyone. If the pricing model is non-dynamic, the risk is that ski schools never grow the market to its full potential size. This is where I think the anglo ski schools deserve some credit because I suspect some of the client base they bring with them or would at least be outside the ski school customer demographic if they only had non native English speakers to learn from.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 23-09-13 17:28; edited 1 time in total
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Haggis_Trap, well, given that the French schools offer group and private lessons at such reasonable prices the model seems to work well for both instructors and consumers. So, no problem, really? If those working in Austria are being paid less than half what the French chaps get, but the customers are paying the same, or more, then the instructors are getting ripped off. If I am paying for ski lessons I would like to think the instructor was getting the lion's share of my fee. Why don't instructors in Austria vote with their feet and start up competing ski schools and pay themselves better?
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fatbob, but you can get fantastically cheap private lessons in Val D'Isere too - and even the Tignes ones are usefully cheaper than Austria.
In the USA there is a frank monopoly, I understand, with the resort bosses calling the tune. So yes, instruction is massively expensive and instructors don't do very well out of it at all. But many of the people who complain about "anti-competitive" action by the ESF (who nonetheless do have to cope these days with competition from British and other French ski schools) don't seem to acknowledge that there's a lack of competition in Austria too - but for different reasons and, apparently, with different beneficiares (ie the ski school owners, not the instructors).
If I'm paying for a ski lesson I would, other thing being equal, prefer that the dosh went mostly to the instructor, not some fat cat in a big chalet.
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Could it be that all the Brits, Argentinians etc. working in Austria are getting subsidised accommodation to top up their wages whereas all the Frencies are still living at home with granny ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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well cheap or subsidised accommodation is certainly worth quite a lot. The French instructors I know are married, with kids and their own home.
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^ the primary difference is that in Austria / CH / USA / Japan / USA / Canada (etc) a L3 is considered the top level qualification. therefore people are happier to work at a ski school for 20-25 euros an hour, and there is a bigger potential pool of people who can make the grade. however they may only do so for a few winters, rather than as a "professional career". most go find a more permanent "family friendly" career once they reach their 30s or 40s.
what stops people setting up as independent ski schools ? unless they are in it for the long haul then basically a combination of local legislation / ski schools monopolised by the ski resort or work permit issues (depending on the specific country). plus the risk of finding your own clients.
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FAQ
