Watched this video today and the takeaway seems to be that boot flex is just marketing and you should go for the highest flex you can afford in the boot range that fit you best, instead of going by your skiing ability. I kind of noticed that it's partly correct in that the "lower flex" rated boots tends to be cheaper and has less features. Seems a different take than what I've read about else where on the subject of boot flex.
@luanb, Hmmm, I like a stiff boot (and have done for many, many years) ...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
IMO. The info he gives is slightly conflicting. One minute he says that you should be in the stiffest boot "You can flex" ie. not too soft (which is sensible); the next he says get the stiffest boot you can within budget, which could be very different, if you have a big budget.
I, along with my partner, had boots fitted a few days ago. When discussing flex, the fitter said “I don't know why they even make boots for men less than 130”. All of the top-of-the line boots we were looking at were at least that, though he also said “these (Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD) say 130 on them, but they'll be a bit softer because of the walk mode”. All sounds pretty similar to me.
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Old Fartbag wrote:
IMO. The info he gives is slightly conflicting. One minute he says that you should be in the stiffest boot "You can flex" ie. not too soft (which is sensible); the next he says get the stiffest boot you can within budget, which could be very different, if you have a big budget.
As I understand it, I think he meant that all the boot ranges have different fit and flex, e.g. the difference between the Lange LX and RX ranges. If your feet fit and feel good in one of those range, you should get the hightest flex rated boot that you can afford within that range, rather than thinking that you should get a RX110 and not a RX130 because you're not an expert.
I, along with my partner, had boots fitted a few days ago. When discussing flex, the fitter said “I don't know why they even make boots for men less than 130”. All of the top-of-the line boots we were looking at were at least that, though he also said “these (Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD) say 130 on them, but they'll be a bit softer because of the walk mode”. All sounds pretty similar to me.
Is he thus saying, that whether you are 10 stone or 18 stone, you should be in no less than a 130. That would certainly be a quantum shift in my understanding.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Get proper fitting boots simples.
Finding them from a decent fitter not so simple
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Old Fartbag, I suppose so, yes. My partner weighs 72kg. Is that about 10 stone? He is fine in the boots he bought.
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@Scarlet, 11 stone 5 ish
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luanb wrote:
Watched this video today and the takeaway seems to be that boot flex is just marketing and you should go for the highest flex you can afford in the boot range that fit you best,
That's far too simplistic an approach. A beginner might fit well into a high-range boot, but will utterly fail to be able to use it to learn the basics if it's too stiff. Indeed I've had quite a lot of intermediate skiers over the years who've been suckered into buying or renting the stiffest boot they could and finding that it was holding them back - sometimes quite literally as they were unable to flex it at all.
There is definitely such a thing as a boot that's too stiff for a give skier.
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@Chaletbeauroc, Indeed, that was my understanding too until I watched that video.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Boot flex relates to speed.
The faster you ski, the faster you need to react (stiffness).
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Like this vid - makes sense. . .however a few seasons back I bought 130s that were the exact model / size / shell of my pimped 100s and hated them. Could easily flex them due to my size/mass however found in reality that my skiing became compromised. Found out later that it was the liner, not the shell that my feet didn't work with properly . . .
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The views in the video do seem to align with those of a well respected bootfitter here in the UK. My wife had a boot fitting recently and was given 100 flex despite being an early intermediate. The fitter was very clear that so long as you can flex a little in the boot, it's fit that counts, not flex. He also made the point that higher flex boots tended to be better made than their softer counterparts. On her first try in MK all went well and no complaints about boots being too stiff.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
luanb wrote:
Watched this video today and the takeaway seems to be that boot flex is just marketing and you should go for the highest flex you can afford in the boot range that fit you best,
That's far too simplistic an approach. A beginner might fit well into a high-range boot, but will utterly fail to be able to use it to learn the basics if it's too stiff. Indeed I've had quite a lot of intermediate skiers over the years who've been suckered into buying or renting the stiffest boot they could and finding that it was holding them back - sometimes quite literally as they were unable to flex it at all.
There is definitely such a thing as a boot that's too stiff for a give skier.
Agree, and it’s worse than that too. Beginners and early intermediates wobble about a lot - they have poor dynamic balance as they have yet to develop this. A stiff boot will transmit every involuntary movement to the skis, whereas a soft boot will absorb some of these unintended movements. Soft boots allow learners to make mistakes without the skis reacting to the point of a tumble.
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@Pooter, IMHO 100 is about the softest any adult would ever want. Although I take on board @telford_mike's comment, but I don't think you want to be much softer than 100 other than your very first week on skis. You don't get enough support to actually tell the skis what you'd like them to do.
Having once, unforgettably, had to hire boots at Braehead - and having to go down 3 full sizes to get a pair that moved when my feet moved - I am absolutely convinced that many people find it harder start to ski due to badly fitting, over soft boots.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@under a new name, maybe that's where the fitter's comments are coming from then? Not many people get boots before they've done a week or two skiing, and in my case looking at freeride boots, how many beginners start in those? Therefore why produce them in low flexes, especially when you lose a chunk of stiffness just through having the walk mode?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Come in CEM! I'd love to know how he chooses the correct flex for someone whose skiing he's never seen. (Talking about an average recreational skier like me here, not a racer, or other expert, who is more likely to know what s/he needs.)
There's more to it than this.
There was another thread in which a couple of (by the sounds of it, very experienced and pretty competent skiers) recently found that they were better going back to a slightly softer boot which they would really flex.
Also some very high level skiers don't like very stiff boots - most obviously people who need to land big air. But also when you are skiing bumps a little more flex helps with absorption and recovery.
And Seth Morrison always skied Full Tilts from the classic Raichle molds and even in their stiffest variant they are not ultra stiff.
The other thing I find odd is why people think that two skiers, both who ski well and fast, one who is 60kg and the other who is 100kg would need the same flex. Why would that be?
We all know that flex varies a lot between ranges and brands. My sense is that race boots of 130 flex are much stiffer than freeride boots of 130 flex but I haven't compared enough to be sure. And different plastics have different stiffness at different temperatures so these comparisons may be different in the shop to on the piste.
The other thing is that ability to flex a boot does not seem to be just about stiffness but also fit and how the design works with your biodynamics. Just one example, if a boot is very upright then I would want to be able to flex it into a slightly more forward position in my neutral ski stance. The act of flexing it will (in many designs) increase the effective stiffness for the NEXT bit of forward movement.
Hopefully CEM will be along with words of wisdom but when we got my son fitted at SFF part of the process was to see how he could flex all the (many!) models he tried just applying pressure in the shop. CEM's colleague was definitely not taking the view that he should just get the stiffest boot available (and he is a pretty good skier who walked away with race boots).
I have three pairs of boots. One are pure touring boots. The other two are Full Tilt Classics and Dalbello Lupo 130C. With the FT you can change the tongues to alter stiffness. I've experimented and ended up with the stiffest tongues. I SLIGHTLY prefer them to the mid-range ones but it doesn't impact my skiing much at all. With the Lupos, I used to have Lupo 120AX but switched to the narrower last 130C which also brought additional stiffness. The narrower fit is better for me but the extra stiffness is neutral. I'm a decent skier who likes to ski pretty fast and set high edge angles. I'm typically 78-80kg nude. I simply don't believe most skiers benefit from going for the stiffest available boot.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Am I correct in recollecting that there is no standard for measuring flex (of boots)? So one manufacturer’s 120 is different from another manufacturer’s 120 flex?
@DavidYacht, correct, as stated in the OP's video.
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Sounds like a lot of cr@p to me
If you're an expert racing GS, a stiff boot would be better.
If you're an expert zip lining the moguls, a softer flex will be better.
When I hit a mogul hard, I want a boot that allows me to flex, and absorb the impact, rather than throw me into the back seat.
After all it is free
After all it is free
DavidYacht wrote:
Am I correct in recollecting that there is no standard for measuring flex (of boots)? So one manufacturer’s 120 is different from another manufacturer’s 120 flex?
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there is no consistency between brands and no standard, so yes most 130 flex boots are "about" the same bit it comes down to how well the shaft of the boot wraps the leg, as for how i select a boot flex for someone
foot shape directs me towards a couple of boot family options (pro machine and Shadow LV for example) body weight, level length, age, power amount of skiing in the past then we try one and see how they feel and how it bends in the store, for the most part i want to see someone flex the boot comfortably at 20 degrees, as when you get on snow things stiffen up, but you then have the leverage of a ski so that makes things bend a bit more.... all in all it is a sense of how the individual works the boot for the most part it is easier to make a boot softer than stiffer, so if i am between flex options that i have i might go stiffer with a view to softening the flex if required
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Surely it's a mix of cost and marketing. Boot moulds are expensive tooling so once you've got one makes sense to churn out as many different models from low end to high end from it. Which you do using cheaper or thinner plastics reducing flex and you can sell them at the entry level/budget/rental fleet pricepoints as well as the more expensive ingredients you put into the serious offerings which you price accordingly. I've heard people say really the number 130 on your boot just says you're serious about skiing and willing to put money into it. I note Decathlon while it seems to have perfectly functional looking boots doesn't really seem to do much at the 130 end.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Surely it's a mix of cost and marketing. Boot moulds are expensive tooling so once you've got one makes sense to churn out as many different models from low end to high end from it. Which you do using cheaper or thinner plastics reducing flex and you can sell them at the entry level/budget/rental fleet pricepoints as well as the more expensive ingredients you put into the serious offerings which you price accordingly. I've heard people say really the number 130 on your boot just says you're serious about skiing and willing to put money into it. I note Decathlon while it seems to have perfectly functional looking boots doesn't really seem to do much at the 130 end.
certainly a it of that
every boot in the "model" is made in the same mold, plastic hardness affects the flex as does the liner construction, you can't inject a mold with a thinner construction without changing the mold, and when you make a thinner walled boot you need to increase plastic hardness to keep the same flex
for example the Atomic Hawx ultra 130 (thin wall construction) uses plastic which is approx 3 x harder than the plastic used in their 130 flex rester Ti (thick wall).... all because of the wall thickness
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I know that Warren Smith thinks that recreational skiers are generally in boots with far too high a flex rating.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
joffy69 wrote:
I know that Warren Smith thinks that recreational skiers are generally in boots with far too high a flex rating.
he is also learning that if someone hasn't got any ankle flexion using a softer boot is a bad thing
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
It's a branding thing. Buy a BMW 420i and compare it to a 440i. It's night and day. Same with a 90 v 120.
I'm advanced/expert, wieigh 90kg 185cm and I use a 120 Lange, I've no idea how it compares to other brands but they have enough flex to a point where I can feel strong resistance in the shell. That's perfect for me and if I was buying a new pair I'd be looking for a similar feel. When I bought the boots a few years ago, I had to be convinced to go to 120 but when I got on the snow the increased stiffness and more progressive flex made my piste skiing much more precise.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Either of these could be worth a listen. I don't know any boot fitter who would suggest that flex means nothing:
speed is variable, temperature also, constants are weight (day to day) and tibial length, therefore a better place to start. Seen too many 70+ kg beginners in 80 flex boots that can’t slow down. Your boots are a brake pedal, working the same way.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
CH2O wrote:
Seen too many 70+ kg beginners in 80 flex boots that can’t slow down. Your boots are a brake pedal, working the same way.
As an instructor I have to say I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Flexing the boots, or not flexing them, is really only a very incidental part of the ability fo control the ski enough to slow down, and in no way can I see how they could work as a brake pedal, as if somehow just pressing or flexing them is going to slow you down. It is not.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Ski in a straight line until your scared, stop in 5 seconds, you'll see how similar to a brake pedal they are.
Can any of the smart physicists on this forum help us understand the resistance required to stop a 80kg person traveling at 70kmph? If not i can suggest ChatGPT. I have this formula so far to try and precisely calculate the flex your ski boot should be, assuming you need a 15° stroke to "feather" the brake pedal. F = K.W + C (T - TG) this is only possible when we have accurate polymer data and a stable (static temperature of -5°C). Phew, not too many variables, however we all do the same test! xx
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
CEM wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Surely it's a mix of cost and marketing. Boot moulds are expensive tooling so once you've got one makes sense to churn out as many different models from low end to high end from it. Which you do using cheaper or thinner plastics reducing flex and you can sell them at the entry level/budget/rental fleet pricepoints as well as the more expensive ingredients you put into the serious offerings which you price accordingly. I've heard people say really the number 130 on your boot just says you're serious about skiing and willing to put money into it. I note Decathlon while it seems to have perfectly functional looking boots doesn't really seem to do much at the 130 end.
certainly a it of that
every boot in the "model" is made in the same mold, plastic hardness affects the flex as does the liner construction, you can't inject a mold with a thinner construction without changing the mold, and when you make a thinner walled boot you need to increase plastic hardness to keep the same flex
for example the Atomic Hawx ultra 130 (thin wall construction) uses plastic which is approx 3 x harder than the plastic used in their 130 flex rester Ti (thick wall).... all because of the wall thickness
This is perfect, eventually in summary the type of plastic used is what gives us these numbers, boot fitters should understand the simple chemistry to help their clients get as a consistent product possible. It eliminates some variables.
I sat down with the guys at Salomon yesterday to talk all this though, came up with this as a reply.
Do all ski boots undergo the same test, factory to factory, model to model. Yes
Do all ski boots given a flex rating the same flex the same? Yes, under test conditions, however in the shop and on the mountain and the person using them offer too many variables for the results to be consistent.
There is no governing body, no requirements to follow any particular protocol. However despite all the machines being hand built and custom made they do the extact same job and can be set up to get the same results as any other. So for me at least there is a test, it's uniform as far as i've seen and boots of the same flex will yield the same results.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
CH2O wrote:
Ski in a straight line until your scared, stop in 5 seconds, you'll see how similar to a brake pedal they are.
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Quote:
I sat down with the guys at Salomon yesterday to talk all this though, came up with this as a reply.
Do all ski boots undergo the same test, factory to factory, model to model. Yes
Do all ski boots given a flex rating the same flex the same? Yes, under test conditions, however in the shop and on the mountain and the person using them offer too many variables for the results to be consistent.
You're asking the wrong question. Each manufacturer will have multiple factories and of course they will standardise their flex specifications and testing across all their factories. The question for me is do all the manufacturers have exactly the same flex specifications and testing as each other? I suspect not.
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CH2O wrote:
I sat down with the guys at Salomon yesterday to talk all this though, came up with this as a reply.
Do all ski boots undergo the same test, factory to factory, model to model. Yes
Do all ski boots given a flex rating the same flex the same? Yes, under test conditions, however in the shop and on the mountain and the person using them offer too many variables for the results to be consistent.
There is no governing body, no requirements to follow any particular protocol. However despite all the machines being hand built and custom made they do the extact same job and can be set up to get the same results as any other. So for me at least there is a test, it's uniform as far as i've seen and boots of the same flex will yield the same results.
With all due respect the two paragraphs don't sit well together IMO.
If there is no GB, no uniformity of machines, no cross checking then I don't see how you can you say that boots undergo the same test and with the rating will mean they flex the same.
The ultimate test would be for Salomon to take a selection of their boot over to Atomic and put them on their test machine to see what rating they give. I suspect they would be in the right ballpark - you are not going to get a 130 boot giving a rating of 110 - but there would be a fair bit of variance. My guess (literally) would be in the range of 125 to 135.
One thing I have I have learnt from these conversions is that it's not just about a customers weight, height, ability but also about their joint/ankle flexibility that would help to determine what sort of flex they would need/tolerate.
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