 Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, instructor pay rates in France are the highest in Europe, actually a living wage.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Alastair Pink, don't really see a difference in it being offered by retirees or by tour op ski hosts, neither should get anyone's knickers in a twist
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Maybe there's a different way for the ESF to approach this. Perhaps they should offer a training course at the start of the season for anyone who wants to be a ski host, covering this such as leading a group (on-piste) safely, matching client abilities to terrain, emergency procedures, rules of the mountain (definitely no off-piste), and how to sell lessons to clients. Local Mairie holds a register of ski hosts who have been certified by ESF (or any other approved ski school), and any ski host caught exceeding their role is removed from the approved ski host list. The course will make clear that absolutely no teaching is allowed, not even "friendly tips" if the clients ask for some feedback.
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rob@rar, Thing is, its none of the ESF's business, they're not the Police. Ski Hosts don't instruct.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges, problem is that in offering 'a relaxed and social ski about' as part of a paid for package they have a duty of care to their guests to ensure that abilities are matched to the terrain covered, etc etc yadah yadah yadah. Frech law is what it is. if they say you need an instructor qualification to do this then you do (in France). If you don't like it, go ski somewhere else where there is no such requirement (and take your chances). I hear Bansko is very 'flexible' about such things. 
under a new name,
No? Wrong? thanks for the informed responses  
I never suggested that ski maps provide all the info. I suggested that the best person to show you round the hill, on routes you can actually enjoy, is someone who can assess your ability having watched you ski a bit. i.e. an instructor. If you want some gap year kid whos been there for a few weeks to take you down what HE thinks is a 'cool route' then great - knock yourself out (not literally I hope) I do know that in our early days Mrs Axs was MUCH happier following an instructor that she trusted not to take her down anything she couldn't manage. Knowing which restaurant served the best frites was pretty much secondary. 
Spyderman, but one guys 'gentle tour' is another (girls) nightmare. I'm not against ski hosting at all, but I do feel that the best people to lead you round the hill are folks who have skied there for years, AND can help you adapt your skills to the terrain you will meet.
Point is, France can decide what rules it wishes to apply to its ski resorts, and us brits can like it, or ski elsewhere. Personally I much prefer A.U.S.T.R.I.A and not only for DJ Otzi. 
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Spyderman, I agree with you, but it just seems a more positive way forward than the current stand-off. It seems the only people who will benefit from the approach being taken are the lawyers. ESF won't generate much, if any, new business from banning companies (British or otherwise) from employing ski hosts. Tour operators might well lose out because holiday-makers go elsewhere. Lift companies, restaurants and bars also lose custom. It's a lose, lose, lose, lawyers win scenario.
Not that I have anything against lawyers, of course.
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rob@rar, What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the sea?
A promising start. 
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Maybe there's a different way for the ESF to approach this. Perhaps they should offer a training course at the start of the season for anyone who wants to be a ski host, covering this such as leading a group (on-piste) safely, matching client abilities to terrain, emergency procedures, rules of the mountain (definitely no off-piste), and how to sell lessons to clients. Local Mairie holds a register of ski hosts who have been certified by ESF (or any other approved ski school), and any ski host caught exceeding their role is removed from the approved ski host list. The course will make clear that absolutely no teaching is allowed, not even "friendly tips" if the clients ask for some feedback. |
sounds reasonable to me.
everyone wins.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, The thing that hits the ESF most is what goes in their pocket, the situation should be publicised in the UK and UK tour operators should boycott the ESF as their lesson providers. A change of thinking on their part would soon be forthcoming, UK clientele is big business for the ESF.
Negotiation from a position of overwhelming strength is always far easier.
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To concentrate the minds of those who want to take the risk of ski guiding /hosting whilst not holding the requisite qualification.
You may be lucky and just get a good fine; if you have an accident with your group it will most likely be, "Go to jail, directly to jail".
Source: French Gendarmerie (PGHM from Bourg St Maurice) during a conversation today with them at the Festival International des Métiers de Montagne, Chambéry, Savoie where I happen to be exhibiting a British manufactured product.
Moral of the story: If you don't want to accept the law of the country you visit don't go there.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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instructor pay rates in France are the highest in Europe, actually a living wage.
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the French schools must be far more efficient than those in other countries then, as their prices for customers are either the same, or less (a great deal less, in some cases) than those of their competitors. If schools in other countries pay a pittance, how come lessons are so expensive?
Remind me not to take lessons in those countries where instructors are being so badly exploited.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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pam w, because in the case of the ESF, no-one apart from the instructors really makes any money, yes there are fees for them to pay, but nothing like what the companies that own ski schools elsewhere make. The best I make (Japan/Chile) is roughly half the lesson cost, my ESF friend keeps 80-90% of what the guest pays.
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jimmer, As far as I know your friend must be bery well rated...
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You know it makes sense.
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because in the case of the ESF, no-one apart from the instructors really makes any money
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Well that's how it should be, surely? the two French ski schools in our resort - one ESF, one ESI, have decent premises and good office staff. What other overheads are there?
In Morzine 4 people can get a 2.5 hour private lesson with ESF for €142. The same with BASS Morzine costs €265. In my, smaller, resort, 4 people can have a 2 hour private lesson for €65 - 85 depending on season. In a small Austrian resort (Alpbach, as an example) it costs €120 for 2 hours. If the French instructors are getting paid more than the BASS and Austrian instructors then the latter should clearly vote with their feet and work for competitors who pay more fairly. But I suspect that instructors in independent British schools in France get paid at least as much as ESF instructors. And if Austrian instructors get ripped off so badly, someone is coining it in and its surely time that the instructors got themselves organised!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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"Remind me not to take lessons in those countries where instructors are being so badly exploited."
So none for you in the UK then!pam w,
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Poster: A snowHead
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none for you in the UK then!pam w
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no, probably not! I'm really curious to know why, for example, Austrian and North American instructors apparently allow themselves to be so exploited. Last time I had group lessons in Austria the instructor was in his mid 40s, I'd say. He spoke very good English, and was a qualified teacher - he'd taught in Loughborough for some years. He had a family, he was a local man. He didn't give the impression of being on the breadline. Are you telling me he was being paid a lot less than half of what the group was paying? And in that case, who was creaming off the majority, and why are they allowed to get away with it? Why wouldn't such highly qualified, well-educated, people just set up their own independent school and pay themselves properly?
The ESF might have tried, over the years, to muscle anyone else out of their territory, but they've failed, haven't they? There are British ski schools (and maybe other nationalities too, for all I know) and independent French ones, who provide competition. The two schools in our small place certainly compete, and prices are low as a result. Do Italian and Austrian schools operate like the mafia and intimidate the potential competition?
I know that some jobs are done more for love than money - I know quite a few sailing instructors who are certainly in that category. But they're not working for some outfit which is taking loads of dosh from the customers and paying them a pittance. They are either working independently, doing tuition, some deliveries etc, or for struggling, non profit making, educational outdoor activity type places which charge moderate prices. There's just not a lot of money in teaching sailing, in part because of high overheads (boats, premises with showers and classrooms for teaching dinghy sailing, expensive waterside locations etc etc) but there is, it appears, quite a lot of money - for somebody - in teaching skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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under a new name, Possibly, he's been doing it a while, he reckons he just pays a fee to his office girl, and to the union, and then he's free to do what he wants. This may not be the case everywhere, but it's how he explained it to me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, To be honest, I could leave my school in Japan, and set up independently (mikepow worked for the same school, and is now independent), but then I have all the stress of finding a house, visa, and clients, on me. Currently, I know I am going to turn up to find my house heated, linens stocked, my drive cleared, my gas filled, and my schedule full of lessons. I will then still walk away from the season with a decent chunk of cash.
In Chile, I could work independently, if I persuaded my clients to pay for my accommodation as well, which given there is only one hotel, and it costs 2-3k a week, is a relatively big ask. There are those clients about, but not many.
Yeah the companies i work for make money off me, but isn't that what companies do? I still make enough money to work 7 months a year and go on holiday for the rest, I don't feel too hard done by.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, I would put the vast majority of UK ski instructors probably in the same boat as (pardon the pun) UK sailing instructors, mainly for the love of teaching and slope/water time...wouldn't sailing instructors be able to command higher wages in say very up market parts of the world?
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gatecrasher, Not really, I used to teach sailing, and people just don't use instructors in the same way as they do in skiing, i.e. you would never find a family hiring a private instructor all day every day sailing, but it's relatively common in skiing. I stopped teaching sailing because I think my hourly wage (working in Turkey and Greece) was about £2 an hour, possibly less!
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I can understand where TO's position is coming from but it's still very arrogant, as they are expected to obey the French law when operating in France and shouldn't try to dictate it either. Many comments here I am struggling to understand. Is it a form of patriotism? Wishing that even on holidays they are being served by their compartiots... But many ski instructors working in France are British and they are 10 times more qualified for hosting than your average chalet host. Or is it a fear of losing one of the freebies that TO's are throwing in a busket? Of course it's cheaper for a TO to have chalet personnel doing ski hosting as it's hardly their only responsibility so economy is apparent. But chalet guests are not getting anything of real value as they can just as well take a map and explore themselves. And if they need hosts to show them "easier blacks", less icy/quieter reds or blues and let someone else make decisions it's usually because they can benefit from a lesson. France is in position to require that certain services on its territory can be only provided by duly qualified professionals. It also creates greater legal certainty. There are people who spent time and money training and regularly upgrading their qualifications and ski hosting puts them at disadvantage as providers of this service.
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never summer, I think you're missing the point of Ski Hosting, people go chalet holiday for the social interaction with other like minded people, very much the same as snowHeads, they treat the ski hosting groups the same way. They don't necessarily want lessons or the pressure of skiing with a ski instructor, they're there for a good time, mixing socially with other like minded people.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jimmer wrote: |
pam w, To be honest, I could leave my school in Japan, and set up independently (mikepow worked for the same school, and is now independent), but then I have all the stress of finding a house, visa, and clients, on me. Currently, I know I am going to turn up to find my house heated, linens stocked, my drive cleared, my gas filled, and my schedule full of lessons. I will then still walk away from the season with a decent chunk of cash.
In Chile, I could work independently, if I persuaded my clients to pay for my accommodation as well, which given there is only one hotel, and it costs 2-3k a week, is a relatively big ask. There are those clients about, but not many.
Yeah the companies i work for make money off me, but isn't that what companies do? I still make enough money to work 7 months a year and go on holiday for the rest, I don't feel too hard done by. |
Going out on your own isn't for everyone and there are logistics to consider - visa, customers, flight, accommodation.
I did it because the ski school I worked for (and which Jimmer works for) wasn't a good fit for me and its structure didn't allow for me to teach the way I wanted.
For example, I have two separate family groups who like to ski as a family. With my former employer this wasn't possible. Working independently it is.
Plus I get to choose how many days I teach in a season.
And getting all of the fee doesn't hurt either.
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never summer, sorry, it's only arrogant if the existing rules are really as set as all that. And if they are, arrogance is the least important aspect of it. Being proved to have broken the law would be the issue. If the existing rules aren't all that, then why would a tour op wish to absorb payment of instructor rates just to get someone to ski around with their customers? Or, why would a tour op abandon its customers to having to pay for costly lessons they don't want? It isn't relevant whether or not they "need" them - many snowHeads never take lessons and I'm sure the vast majority of those would cheerfully admit their skiing could be better, they're just happy and having a great time as they are, thanks! All people who use tour op ski hosts want is someone fun to ski with and show them round a bit - easier and more relaxing than constantly having to stop and check a soggy lift map with freezing cold fingers. No need to have done TT, ET, EMS, UIAGM or ATLS to do that job! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Blimey, that set the dogs running.
Wll there be anyone leading/guiding groups around in any of the french based SH bashes?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Dr John, not a usual occurence on a bash, we're all quite capable of reading a piste map. There'll be informal groups skiing together, some doing lessons, others skiing off-piste with qualified guides.
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Hells Bells, Fair enough.
I've used guiding in the past and found it very useful (I've also seen people skiing in the advance group who were anything but, in fact they were liabilities and I made sure to keep a distance between us, but I digress). Few years ago in Tignes I booked an off-piste afternoon with ESP, via the TO, offered it around and 4 of us had a cracking afternoon. Winning all round.
As a compromise, why don't the TO's commit to promoting ESF exclusively to their customers? Can't stop someone booking with another company directly, but all TO sales driven through ESF.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hells Bells,
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we're all quite capable of reading a piste map
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ahem, I'm not too sure of that... 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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never summer yes missing the point(s) I'm afraid.
- Hosting and teaching are two different things requiring different skills and warranting different rates of remuneration.
- It's not about xenophobia (I think that's what you mean by patriotism); when I was a TO guide in Avoriaz two of the british TOs had french guides, and one a swede. They were very professional, likable, great with the guest, spoke good enough english to have a laugh with the punters, but not qualified instructors.
- It's not about trying to dictate laws to the french. It's not about "french bashing", it's about the problem that the ESF have very cleverly stolen the right of self determination from the french-alpine population themselves. By ruthless lobbying in the corridors of power, the passing of brown envelopes, the president of the ESF being a drinking buddy of the minister for sport, etc. etc. they have conned their compatriots into thinking they're acting in their community's best interests; whereas some of the ESF policies are only about shoring-up the self-interest of their membership at the expense of their ski-industry's international competitiveness and the pockets of their own population.
Unfortunately with no international perspective, lots of the locals believe the hype that only the ESF know what's good for them; and nothing's going to change that until we, as experts in the british ski industry, find a way of circumventing the ESF machine all together and expose the ESFs anti-competative agenda to the french themselves.
rob@rar's idea of the ESF (and hopefully the other schools) policing the "hosting" service is a great one (because that's probably the only way it would be allowed to happen), but they'll never volunteer to do it off their own bats. It will only be pressure from their own business community and authorities that changes anything, and that pressure won't come until we find a way to make them realize they have a problem.
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Poster: A snowHead
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From my experience of working as a ski host in the past, we were allowed to ski any marked run we wanted no matter the difficulty. We were strictly told not to teach or ski off-piste (even a little bit), these were instant dismissal offences. These rules were the same for each employer I worked for. Two of those employers also required us to do emergency first aid certificates if we didn't already have them and they all gave us some trianing on what was expected in the job. For one employer that training was for a week. I was going through various instructor exams during the times I was doing this work, but the employers did not require me to be qualified, though I guess they may have quite like the fact that I was.
I think a big distinction here lies in the difference in culture between the french and the british. Brits if they take lessons want feedback and properly structured lessons. For a lot of the upper-intermediate and above classes in ESF the french are used to and expect to just ski around behind the instructor and get given the odd tip or hint. The ESF therefore as they are used to this will then see ski hosts as taking business from them as there is not a world of difference between their perception of the roles. This isn't really the case though as brits don't go with a host if they want a lesson or even tips. In 3 seasons of ski hosting I never once got asked to give any tips or hints to guests, they all knew the deal and were happy with it and even though a lot of them knew I had teacher qualifications.
I think what is needed exists somewhere in the middle ground, properly qualified ski hosts who have something like an alpine ski leader course (or a french equivalent) under their belt. Their are french ski clubs of course and they have their own people to lead and teach them who aren't moniteur nationales they are qualified through their own systems (leading into IVSI on the coaching side, the leading side is different). Of course these clubs are not for profit and the leader/coach receives no remuneration. This may be the sticking point with TO ski hosts as they are paid (albeit very badly) even if they did get an agreed qualification for leading.
TO's giving ski hosts no job training and just getting hosts to call for piste security if an accident occurs is no good. In an accident you at least need to know what to do to get to the point where first aid support is given even if you provide no first aid yourself. Also it can often take some time before someone arrives to provide professional help so really you need a first aid certificate to be able to do the right things for those you are leading.
I agree with quite a lot of what haggis trap says in that the french have created a system whereby if you get suitably qualified as a mountain professional then you can make a reasonable living i.e you can have a mortgage, get married , have kids etc. We know that the ET is no test of how good a teacher you are but it does keep the numbers of those who can work down so they make a living, so I would defend that and I am one of the guys with a level 3 ISIA licence (plus parts of the 4) who will probably never be able to work in France because of the ET.
One of my current ski related employers in the UK has started to cut our wages and created a system where getting better qualified is pointless as you get no financial or other gain from the qualification and in fact as a level 3 I am now receiving less work as it is more expensive for them to employ me than it is to employ a level 1!
I am also currently an SCGB leader and their position is slightly different to that of the TO's in that they are a club and a not for profit organisation. Leaders are not paid but their expenses are covered (well in reality, not all of them, but in principle). They have their own in-house training course which is certainly a lot better than any TO training I ever had, but then it should be as we lead off-piste. The problem here is probably the in-house training course as it is not a qualification and therefore not subject to national or international verification of standard by an overseeing body, this is regardless of if it is up to the required standard or not.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skir67 great post, I'd never really thought through why the ESF feel guiding is such a threat (never having taken an ESF lesson myself, only given them!). Of course if what a lot of the guys do is not much more than guiding anyway then they would obviously see TO guiding as competition.
Re. using the ET to keep supply down and salaries up, don't you think there's a better way to do it though? Yes set the bar high to make it a viable career, but do it in a way that supports good teaching and pupil satisfaction (great teaching skills, proven motivation to teach, excellent language skills), rather than by an instrument which is only designed to provide a career path for washed-up racers, who have no interest in teaching and spent their school years in race-camp rather than language lessons.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I know I am going to turn up to find my house heated, linens stocked, my drive cleared, my gas filled, and my schedule full of lessons.
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but that's a massive part of your remuneration package, isn't it? If people expect a ski school to provide accommodation and other "in-kind" benefits then it's utterly unreasonable to expect to receive the lion's share of the fees, too! Same applies, I often think, to unskilled 19 year olds working for chalet owners. How many of them could earn enough in the UK to keep a roof over their heads, feed themselves, indulge in an expensive hobby AND get drunk several times a week?
Comparing pay rates between ski instructors means comparing the whole package, not just the cash that changes hands. I've read here about decent accommodation being provided by schools in Austria, too. But that's worth a fortune, especially in a ski resort. The two French instructors I ski with have their own homes, with their families in, which they have to buy, heat and fill with furniture and food! In summer one of them is a builder, the other a motor-cycle instructor.
As for a sailing instructor being able to earn more in an "upmarket part of the world" this IS an upmarket part of the world. The Hamble River is one of the most expensive places in the world to keep a boat!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| shep wrote: |
| an instrument which is only designed to provide a career path for washed-up racers, who have no interest in teaching |
I know you have experience with the ESF but I have found there are ESF instructors who are just not like that. They take teaching seriously - they have grown up in the mountains and have always seen ski instruction as a natural career path. Sure, they probably dreamed of being world famous ski racers and took a shot at it, but the fact they didn't make it doesn't make them poo-poo teachers. I'm sure the majority of teachers of all kinds grew up with aspirations to do something else. I certainly didn't ever think I'd want to be a teacher. Then when I fell into it, I found out that I enjoyed it and - if I say so myself - was pretty good at it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, I agree with the expensive bit but given anywhere in the world....was just wondering really 
jimmer, thanks also for your explanation.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 18-11-12 19:59; edited 1 time in total
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| miranda wrote: |
| shep wrote: |
| an instrument which is only designed to provide a career path for washed-up racers, who have no interest in teaching |
I know you have experience with the ESF but I have found there are ESF instructors who are just not like that. They take teaching seriously - they have grown up in the mountains and have always seen ski instruction as a natural career path. Sure, they probably dreamed of being world famous ski racers and took a shot at it, but the fact they didn't make it doesn't make them poo-poo teachers. I'm sure the majority of teachers of all kinds grew up with aspirations to do something else. I certainly didn't ever think I'd want to be a teacher. Then when I fell into it, I found out that I enjoyed it and - if I say so myself - was pretty good at it. |
Yes you're right of course miranda, it was a generalisation to make a point. There are of course good instructors at ESF (and bad ones elsewhere), but it generally seems to be in spite of the way the system is set up rather than because of it. There are also great teachers who give bad lessons to the brits because they don't have the language skills. I refused to teach in french when I was there because I knew I would be crap, but they don't have that luxury. So I guess my point is they should focus more on communication and less on the ability to ski gates.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 18-11-12 16:57; edited 1 time in total
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I "hosted" a blue run group for 2 days while in La Plagne (because the reps who usually did it had gastro - I was just happy to be out of the kitchen). I was explicitly told not to do anything harder than blues. We had a reds group as well, but no blacks/off piste, instant dismissal for either.
I just showed them some nice (easy) blues, and where the quieter runs/lifts could be found because I thought that would be useful. Most guests who join hosted days seem to do it for the first couple of days to find their way around, then go their own way after that. Have to say I really don't see a problem with that kind of thing.
I was totally bricking it tbh, trying to do running headcounts on the mountain of people who are all wearing different coloured kit was stressful and I was paranoid about losing people (even though I only had 7). It turned out quite fun in the end, and I got free lunch.
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Maybe there's a different way for the ESF to approach this. Perhaps they should offer a training course at the start of the season for anyone who wants to be a ski host, covering this such as leading a group (on-piste) safely, matching client abilities to terrain, emergency procedures, rules of the mountain (definitely no off-piste), and how to sell lessons to clients. Local Mairie holds a register of ski hosts who have been certified by ESF (or any other approved ski school), and any ski host caught exceeding their role is removed from the approved ski host list. The course will make clear that absolutely no teaching is allowed, not even "friendly tips" if the clients ask for some feedback. |
sounds reasonable to me.
everyone wins. |
Sounds like a good idea. I would have liked to do that, just for the experience.
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| shep wrote: |
skir67 great post, I'd never really thought through why the ESF feel guiding is such a threat (never having taken an ESF lesson myself, only given them!). Of course if what a lot of the guys do is not much more than guiding anyway then they would obviously see TO guiding as competition.
Re. using the ET to keep supply down and salaries up, don't you think there's a better way to do it though? Yes set the bar high to make it a viable career, but do it in a way that supports good teaching and pupil satisfaction (great teaching skills, proven motivation to teach, excellent language skills), rather than by an instrument which is only designed to provide a career path for washed-up racers, who have no interest in teaching and spent their school years in race-camp rather than language lessons. |
I think the ET is a poor way of doing things tbh. It has two things as plus points. One: it is very easy to run, much more so than organising real clients to have lessons with aspirant instructors and for those lessons to be properly assessed. Two: it is entirely non-subjective, the clock is your judge.
The problem with assessment of teaching/technical skiing/customer satisfaction is that even with very well trained and checked assessors the assessing is subjective, it is based on a person or persons view point. I think it is the better route ultimately but it is much harder to do this right all of the time. The ET doesn't have that issue.
Anyway I'm going off topic there a bit.
BTW shep you don't happen to run the ski school at Cairngorm do you?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This whole topic is bizarre when you think about. Everyone's going on about qualifications, law and being safe etc,etc....
Yet... anyone can hire a pair of skis and launch themselves down a piste, having never skied before, with no Insurance, and just go for it... a danger to themselves and everyone else around them... yet they are allowed to do it. 
Madness when you think about it...yet we have all the bollox when it comes to 'Professional' qualifications and what we can and cannot do...
It's really fecked up...
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| shep wrote: |
Yes you're right of course miranda, it was a generalisation to make a point. There are of course good instructors at ESF (and bad ones elsewhere), but it generally seems to be in spite of the way the system is set up rather than because of it. There are also great teachers who give bad lessons to the brits because they don't have the language skills. I refused to teach in french when I was there because I knew I would be crap, but they don't have that luxury. So I guess my point is they should focus more on communication and less on the ability to ski gates. |
Ok, but it's a generalisation you've made twice in this thread already and it's unfair on ESF instructors. You are right of course to say that brits have pretty terrible language skills and so often want lessons in English because they can't speak the languages of the countries they visit. Even in the small ski village I'm in, the younger generation of ESF instructors speak English though, so I find it difficult to believe that there are no English-speaking ESF instructors in the big French resorts. The older generation generally do not speak English, and are therefore good for people who want to get twice the value for the money - a session of ski AND French lessons rolled into one.
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