 Poster: A snowHead
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What happened with the Ski Club rep in BSM?
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Similar to the Le Ski leader. I believe there's an ongoing case with them too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Chris198 wrote: |
| I was one of the Le Ski guides to be arrested & "interrogated" by the Gendarms in 1850 last year. I had no idea it would lead to this! I've been asked to go to the court case as a witness. It seems to all have gotten a little bit out of hand since that fateful day in March! |
Chris198 - interesting! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Chris198 wrote: |
| redacted to be helpful. |
If you can and are willing can you talk us through the actual charges and how it came about to be Le ski that got collared?
Also I'm confused as this talk of BASI 1 or 2 for hosting, I thought we agreed that host was not instruction so why are you saying to host you need a instructional qualification?
Would this not lead to more issues with the ESF because it is an instructional qualification and would it not tempt the host even more to instruct?
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 22-11-12 20:28; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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But BASI aren't members of IVSI, the hngb's are so you would need their level 4 coach qualification plus an IVSI licence to be able to do this. These people can take racers or club members abroad as long as they are coaching them over a period of time and they OK this with the local authorities before arriving in resort.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
PJSki, just asking because, according to Planetski re the meeting with ESF last week in London:
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| Tour operators represented at the London meeting were Inghams, Esprit Ski, Ski Total, Crystal, Zenith, Thomson, First Choice, Neilson, Ski Olympic, Erna Lowe, Skiworld, the Ski Club of Great Britain and others. |
If an SCGB Leader is just
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some random bloke leading a groups of his mates around the mountain
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then why are SCGB involved at a high level with the TO fight? |
SCGB will be in on that as they do have a holiday arm in ski freshtracks I expect.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| slikedges wrote: |
rjs, are you sure? I'm sure I was told it had now been consigned to the scrap heap (read: too late for me to get it!  ) |
yes, it is still available.
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| skir67 wrote: |
But BASI aren't members of IVSI, the hngb's are so you would need their level 4 coach qualification plus an IVSI licence to be able to do this. These people can take racers or club members abroad as long as they are coaching them over a period of time and they OK this with the local authorities before arriving in resort. |
If you've got BASI Level 3 all you need to do is join SSE pay your £50 odd membership and you get equivalence to their L4 coach, which brings with it IVSI status. Then set up a 'Club' within your company, charge your clients a nominal club membership charge, Job done!
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I suppose one problem is that skiing is one of the sports that only has certification/qualifications for instruction/coaching, and not for competence. Ergo to get a qualification demonstrating a defined, consistent level of competence, the only option is an instructional qualification. Which I think is a shame
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| skir67 wrote: |
| But is positive change going to happen by employing low qualified/ low experienced teachers? Or paying instructors next to nothing for experience and qualifications that have taken them many years and probably 10's of thousands of pounds to gain? |
Surely what's needed is to offer a range of services which are so compelling that more people want to pay to ski with, be guided by, be coached by snowports professionals? |
yes and part of that is having well respected and reasonable qualifications which should provide a level of reassurance to the customer along with the necessary experience to provide high quality products that peopel want to use again and again.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| skir67 wrote: |
But BASI aren't members of IVSI, the hngb's are so you would need their level 4 coach qualification plus an IVSI licence to be able to do this. These people can take racers or club members abroad as long as they are coaching them over a period of time and they OK this with the local authorities before arriving in resort. |
If you've got BASI Level 3 all you need to do is join SSE pay your £50 odd membership and you get equivalence to their L4 coach, which brings with it IVSI status. Then set up a 'Club' within your company, charge your clients a nominal club membership charge, Job done! |
Absolutely, I did this a while back.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| skir67, if there were genuine competition between ski schools I wouldn't agree that prices would be only slightly lower, esp if you look at what Brit ski schools in France charge. Of course the average rate to instructors would fall. That's to the good of the paying public. There should be no artificial constraint just for the benefit of ski instructors who want to make a living from something many will do for little to nothing, I'm afraid. What you say about the CdF thing is dead right of course. Once again I'm afraid it's down to the paying public to educate themselves and know what they are paying for. BASI could set up and advertise a website informing interested members of the public who buy ski lessons on holiday and at home what the undoubted differences between the levels are but for ski schools/senior instructors to restrict their employment of staff to a certain level, whether over or under qualified, isn't good for customers. |
I think at the moment the british schools in france are able to charge such a high rate because their customers perceive their product to be worth paying that much extra for over the esfs offering. Undoubtedly prices would come down to a degree with competition. But what you would end up with is much like holiday price competition where the majority of holiday purchasers buy on price alone this keeps driving prices down to the point where what is provided is not very good (I worked in the summer holiday business for a while and saw this first hand).
Then you would have a scenario as in all countries where ski teaching becomes untenable as a life-long career. Perhaps this is what the paying market is happy with?
It is not in BASI's best interest imo to, make the public aware of the merits/demerits of the different levels of qualification. It would inevitably devalue the entry qualifications and add value to the higher ones. As the majority of BASI's membership are L1/L2 I don't think they would do this though I think they should.
A lot of ski schools would use the lowest qualified and cheapest instructors they could to increase their profit margin it happens already in many places. They only employ overqualified (?) people because they have no choice owing to laws in place. The only exceptions to this are the schools who have made a positive effort to sell their higher level qualified staff and use this fact as a product feature, they sadly, currently are appealing to a relatively small part of the overall target market.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| I think at the moment the british schools in france are able to charge such a high rate because their customers perceive their product to be worth paying that much extra for over the esfs offering. |
Wrong - british ski schools can charge high rate because the French system (i.e euro test) limits the number of instructors, of all nationality, able to work in France.
Ironically it is also the French system that directly ensure there are no poor british instructors in France. Anyone who has taken the time, effort and expense to jump through the ISTD hoops to gain equivalence (with Euro Test) will almost certainly be a top level skier and instructor ?
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
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| I think at the moment the british schools in france are able to charge such a high rate because their customers perceive their product to be worth paying that much extra for over the esfs offering. |
Wrong - british ski schools can charge high rate because the French system (i.e euro test) limits the number of instructors able to work in France. |
It limits the number of british instructors that can work in france to a very select few. But british clients could go to the esf who are cheaper in a lot of instances, however they obviously choose to payer the higher prices of the british schools so they must see value in their offerings otherwise the british schools could not charge what they do.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| The Ski Club doesn't pay its leaders |
Haven't we been here before? Don't the French consider lift pass, lodging, transport etc as being "pay"? |
Maybe we should ask Nixmap what he thinks of that?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| But british clients could go to the esf who are cheaper in a lot of instances, however they obviously choose to payer the higher prices of the british schools so they must see value in their offerings otherwise the british schools could not charge what they do. |
^ and large numbers of British skiers do get lessons with the ESF (apparently 30% of their buisness in some resorts).
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 22-11-12 10:47; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just another aside. I don't expect any change under the current French govt. The industy minister, Arnaud Montebourg, has declared himself "pro employment" and not "pro-consumer". He believes that the EU is too pro consumer to the detriment of businesses and jobs.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Does anyone else think the topic has strayed somewhat?
This is surely not about Ski Instructing or Guiding or safety?
What TO ski hosts offer, is totally different to what French Ski Instructors and Guides offer.
You hire an Instructor to improve your Skiing.
You hire a Guide, to take you off piste and to areas that you cannot navigate yourself. Otherwise you use the piste map and guide yourself.
The people that use Ski hosts just want a social jolly to potter around the pisted slopes and stop off at restaurants.
Ski Instructors and Guides are not losing revenue. The people that use hosts would employ Instructors if they wanted Instruction and to improve their skiing.
The people that want to go off piste safely would employ Guides.
If Customers don't have the offer of a Ski host with their TO, and don't want Instruction or Guiding off piste, then they use the free piste maps. Simples...
If the ESF and French really do think it's an issue of Safety, then i think that is complete B.oll.ox.
If this were the case people wouldn't be allowed to ski on their own, on the slopes or off piste with no experience or Insurance.
The fact you can turn up and buy a lift ticket and lauch yourself down a slope with no control is ludicrous imho. You might as well say to someone who's never driven, here's the car keys, there's a shopping Mall.... Go fill your boots. 
This is not about Safety on the slopes.
This is purely a protection racket imho.
The Crux of the matter for me, is how the French perceive a Ski Lesson and how the Brits and TO's perceive a Ski Lesson.
I'm under the impression that the ESF see leading a group around the pistes without Instruction as a lesson.
I'm told many other nationalities will book a 'lesson' with the ESF, and when asked by the Instructor what they want from the 'Lesson', they are told that they just want to ski.
In this case... the Instructor, just becomes like the TO Ski host. Leading and pottering around the pistes with little or no Instruction. The customer gets the benefit of jumping the lift queque as well.
I really do think it's boils down to perception by both nations.
It's as pure and simple as that imho...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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spud, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| spud wrote: |
I'm under the impression that the ESF see leading a group around the pistes without Instruction as a lesson.
It's as pure and simple as that imho... |
Yup
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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spud,
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This is surely not about Ski Instructing or Guiding or safety?
What TO ski hosts offer, is totally different to what French Ski Instructors and Guides offer.
You hire an Instructor to improve your Skiing.
You hire a Guide, to take you off piste and to areas that you cannot navigate yourself. Otherwise you use the piste map and guide yourself.
The people that use Ski hosts just want a social jolly to potter around the pisted slopes and stop off at restaurants.
Ski Instructors and Guides are not losing revenue. The people that use hosts would employ Instructors if they wanted Instruction and to improve their skiing.
The people that want to go off piste safely would employ Guides.
If the ESF and French really do think it's an issue of Safety, then i think that is complete B.oll.ox.
If this were the case people wouldn't be allowed to ski on their own, on the slopes or off piste with no experience or Insurance.
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Makes sense to me, but I'm just a punter. My own attitude certainly differs, depending on whether I'm skiing with a TO host or an instructor. I put my safety quite trustingly in the hands of the latter, but not to the slightest degree in the former.
I appreciate people's attitudes to such things differ. Only today, a student has put up a thread on here, inviting any random person to go skiing with him off-piste and it turns out he has had precisely one week's experience on the mountain. As you imply, the latest French shenanigans will do nothing to save this lad from himself.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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spud, totally agreed, this thread seems to have developed into a instructional qualification equivalence thread and not what the OP had intended.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
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| But british clients could go to the esf who are cheaper in a lot of instances, however they obviously choose to payer the higher prices of the british schools so they must see value in their offerings otherwise the british schools could not charge what they do. |
^ and large numbers of British skiers do get lessons with the ESF (apparently 30% of their buisness in some resorts). |
Absolutely, I know the ESF gets a lot of brit custom. These are the customers who are more price sensitive or see no extra value in what the british schools offer. But obviously there are enough people who value the brit schools offering to pay the prices they charge under the way the system currently works. Obviously there would be a realignment in prices if brit schools could employ a level 2 or equivalent as there are a lot of those.
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| spud wrote: |
This is purely a protection racket imho.
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Whatever the motive behind people's objection to ski hosts breaking the rules in France, this is not "a protection racket", surely?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Its not unreasonable for the French to expect UK ski hosts working for Tour Ops to have some kind of qualification ? Which is why the strong anti French / ESF sentiment is wrong.
For example the Austrians have already totally banned unqualified UK ski hosts from St Anton.
The real question is what level that qualification should be going forward...
However that would require some kind of change in the "rules". Not just in France but also across the rest of Europe.
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Haggis_Trap, I hope you're not branding everyone who disagrees with you as being anti-French. In my case, at least, that could not be further from the truth.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| spud, totally agreed, this thread seems to have developed into a instructional qualification equivalence thread and not what the OP had intended. |
What did the OP intend? He posted a link to an article with no comment other than "bloody French" in the title. Seems like a thread open for anyone into French bashing AFAIKS.
Most of the sane comments have focussed on the issue. There is a law in France, rightly or wrongly, that prohibits leading groups of skiers around resort ski runs for money. Someone has allegedly been caught doing this. There will be a court case in the New Year, we'll know the lower court's opinion then.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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davidof,
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There is a law in France, rightly or wrongly, that prohibits leading groups of skiers around resort ski runs for money. Someone has allegedly been caught doing this. There will be a court case in the New Year, we'll know the lower court's opinion then.
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Spot. On. In the meantime, there's no law against arguing the "rightly or wrongly" bit of that on an internet forum.  However, it seems we're unlikely to get anything other than wikilawyer opinion on the interface between French law and European law. That interests me a lot, but I don't pretend to know the answers.
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davidof, I agree that the thread title is poor, that's why I ignored it until the subject was pointed out to me at about page 7 I think.
I do not read national bashing threads.
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You know it makes sense.
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Dwarf Vader, agreed, and my magic moderators fingers have now changed the title to something less provocative.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Pedantica wrote: |
davidof,
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There is a law in France, rightly or wrongly, that prohibits leading groups of skiers around resort ski runs for money. Someone has allegedly been caught doing this. There will be a court case in the New Year, we'll know the lower court's opinion then.
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Spot. On. In the meantime, there's no law against arguing the "rightly or wrongly" bit of that on an internet forum. However, it seems we're unlikely to get anything other than wikilawyer opinion on the interface between French law and European law. That interests me a lot, but I don't pretend to know the answers. |
What would be interesting now is to hear the ESF's version of events or to hear from some ESF directors and the Ski Host from le Ski's account of why he is being called as a witness. Also what are the H&S issue. The only thing I can see is that PLI would be invalid if there were a claim arising from ski leading. I'm surprised that TOs continue with the practise in France to be honest given the legal position.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| davidof wrote: |
| Most of the sane comments have focussed on the issue. There is a law in France, rightly or wrongly, that prohibits leading groups of skiers around resort ski runs for money. Someone has allegedly been caught doing this. There will be a court case in the New Year, we'll know the lower court's opinion then. |
We never know, the bloody French court might find in favour of the bloody British tour operator. Either way, we will hopefully have some clarity at the end of all this
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
| I'm surprised that TOs continue with the practise in France to be honest given the legal position. |
Because the perceived benefits from happy guests are better than the financial penalties that might be imposed? Not sure what happens if an employee ends up being jailed and then makes a significant claim against his employer though? Lawyers' bonanza?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| spud, totally agreed, this thread seems to have developed into a instructional qualification equivalence thread and not what the OP had intended. |
Most of the sane comments have focussed on the issue. There is a law in France, rightly or wrongly, that prohibits leading groups of skiers around resort ski runs for money. Someone has allegedly been caught doing this. There will be a court case in the New Year, we'll know the lower court's opinion then. |
Totally agree...
For me though, the ESF are bringing it to the Authorities attention, not because a law is being broken, but because they feel it is effecting their business.
If it wasn't perceived to be effecting their business, then i'm sure they wouldn't even bother.
In the same way lots of people find ways of trying to get around laws and regs ( as we have seen recently in France, Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy), but only seem to complain when they deem it to effect them negatively directly.
Laws are put in place for a reason.
Has this law been put in place to protect the businesses of Ski Instructors or Mountain Guides, or for the 'Safety' of the public?
I believe it is the former. If it were the latter, then safety issues on the slopes would be far greater. Surely?
A judge will know all the why's and wherefores... and judge fairly and accordingly, hopefully.
Never the less... I still think it stinks of protectionism, and the difference in perceived understanding of what a lesson or guide is, between both parties.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| spud wrote: |
| I still think it stinks of protectionism... |
if it looks like un canard, walks like un canard and quacks like un canard, it's probably un canard.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
| I still think it stinks of protectionism... |
if it looks like un canard, walks like un canard and quacks like un canard, it's probably un canard. |
Well, it certainly seems that the TO hosts may soon be enchainé....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Alastair Pink,
I don't think many are going to get that joke!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
| I still think it stinks of protectionism... |
if it looks like un canard, walks like un canard and quacks like un canard, it's probably un canard. |
Well, it certainly seems that the TO hosts may soon be enchainé.... |
Chapeau, Monsieur!
Actually, what do the French media (satirical or otherwise) make of this issue? Could any francophone snowheads tell us?
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BREAKING NEWS
NEW SNOWHEADS AUTO-TRANSLATION SOFTWARE KICKS IN TO ENHANCE ENTENTE CORDIALE
INSERT TEXT TO BE TRANSLATED
"Bloody French"
YOUR FRANGLAIS TRANSLATION
"ESF take UK tour ops à court over alleged illegal ski guiding"
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FAQ
