 Poster: A snowHead
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| feef wrote: |
| dsoutar wrote: |
| Unfortunately in my limited experience and the anecdotal evidence I have from others is that many ESF instructors are still frankly more of the "do what I do" approach rather than being of the "this is what you need to do and this is how we are going to get you to be able to do that" method which is in fact what many of the independent schools have grasped. |
Which is obviously why the French are such appalling skiers and rarely in the top finishers in world cup events. |
Holy logical fallacy Batman! If never summer was off on one we're in whole new territory. Parisians are as a rule sh*t skiers FWIW.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| never summer, you should understand the difference between 'need' and 'want' - and perhaps have some sympathy for the point of view that needs and wants are personal. But much as I think you need to, I don't suppose you want to. |
I think I asked the question earlier on this thread if the ski club of great britain organised these sorts of Leading sessions and the answer was that they did.
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You would have thought the ski club would have been all over this situation. They already offer a days free skiing with the club and do visit the TO intro evenings?
Are the club not a good match with TO guests?
Do they lack the capacity to replace the TO reps?
Are the TOs not keen to pass on their guests? Guiding used to be another method for selling apres events.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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feef, yes no one debates that the ESF has some GREAT instructors. It's just they aren't using them to teach holiday punters in classe2 and numbers means ESF has large portion of not great instructors too. They keyword in dsoutars post is *many*
[quote]
Unfortunately in my limited experience and the anecdotal evidence I have from others is that many ESF instructors are still frankly more of the "do what I do" approach [quote]
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| feef, nobody said the French were bad skiers (though there are plenty of bad French skiers out there, particularly in February). The assertion was that the ESF's teaching style leaves things tp be desired. |
Slightly off topic.
For male skiers, France has 11% of all individuals who have ever won a World Cup race and 8% of all race wins. It's quite a bit better for females where the ration of winners is 15% of individuals and 11% of all race wins. Austria dominate the stats for men whereas it's Switzerland for the women
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davidof, maybe the ski club thinks it's on thin ice itself and is keeping its head below the parapet
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+1
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| feef, nobody said the French were bad skiers (though there are plenty of bad French skiers out there, particularly in February). The assertion was that the ESF's teaching style leaves things tp be desired. |
And if it was really that bad, would the French be such a strong alpine nation? The ESF lessons I had as a kid and young adult worked fine for me. Sure, the method may not suit everyone but that doesn't mean it's bad.
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| davidof wrote: |
Are the TOs not keen to pass on their guests? Guiding used to be another method for selling apres events. |
I don't know about the rest, but I suspect there's an aspect of this one.
Also, there's the cost aspect. Who's going to pay for the leading service? Unless the TO's customers sign up to become members then there's not really a return for the club, and I don't see the TO's being that willing to pay out for a service which may or may not get used. At least with their own reps leading, the cost was included in their existing overheads.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Since people have individual learning styles, a school intending to serve a wide customer base should be adaptable and not dogmatic. But I guess we're drifting off the point of this thread, the crux of which is the difference between hosting and instruction.
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| Quote: |
At least with their own reps leading, the cost was included in their existing overheads.
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and IME the guides got roped in for all kind of extra duties including washing up and transfers.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| feef wrote: |
| Lizzard wrote: |
| feef, nobody said the French were bad skiers (though there are plenty of bad French skiers out there, particularly in February). The assertion was that the ESF's teaching style leaves things tp be desired. |
And if it was really that bad, would the French be such a strong alpine nation? The ESF lessons I had as a kid and young adult worked fine for me. Sure, the method may not suit everyone but that doesn't mean it's bad. |
I agree. Personally, given the choice between a French instructor who grew up in the alps and a Brit who learnt on holidays and then at a snowdome then I know who I would rather go to - although I am sure there are huge exceptions to this and some really good English ski instructors.
Generally speaking I get good feedback from the people who stay in our apartment about any lessons they have in the resort, regardless of whether they use esf, prosneige or skicool. I don't remember anyone ever complaining about their lessons. I suspect that all the providers give a good service to the vast majority of holiday makers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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emwmarine, that might be more a lot of people don't know what to expect. We have had some pretty bad ESF lessons over the years and so far no bad lessons from anyone else (group of 15 or so for last 10 years). And seriously I'd rather be taught by the brit who learnt as an adult than someone who was brought up on the slopes. I'm a crap basic arithmetic teacher as to me it's just obvious, those who struggled more themselves are much better(and more patient!) for teaching beginners and intermediates!
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The word on the street is that a SCGB 'leader' was allegedly arrested for 'leading' in Val D'Isere last week. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
At least with their own reps leading, the cost was included in their existing overheads.
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and IME the guides got roped in for all kind of extra duties including washing up and transfers. |
Indeed. And providing entertainment - curling, etc. A very full on week we had.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Personally, given the choice between a French instructor who grew up in the alps and a Brit who learnt on holidays and then at a snowdome then I know who I would rather go to - although I am sure there are huge exceptions to this and some really good English ski instructors.
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If you don't like the ESF then at least get a Scottish ski instructor it's a well known fact the English can't ski...
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Poster: A snowHead
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a.j.,
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to me it's just obvious, those who struggled more themselves are much better(and more patient!) for teaching beginners and intermediates!
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+1
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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i cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can think of being at the back of a snake of 10 or 12 people, fully 100m+ away from a completely disinterested instructor of whatever nationality as good value. from what i saw in les arcs last week, every 'ski school' would have broken the trade descriptions act. one instructor took his class of kids to a lift that's hardly ever used, so the poor kids had to wait for enough adults came along to accompany them up...they must have been standing there helpless for 15 minutes! i reckon the only reason parents put their kids in ski-school is to get them out the way for 2-3 hours, and ski-school is cheaper than a nanny.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Don Keebles, out of the way so that I don't have to ski as fast as my daughter.
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I'll be interested to see how the scgb gets on.
The court case against Simon Butler was last week and the decision of the court is due in June.
10/12 kids in a class is mainly babysitting and a cheap one too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jbob wrote: |
| I'll be interested to see how the scgb gets on. |
Due in court September 2104.
Le Ski case due to be heard sometime in May.
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stewart woodward, thanks, my understanding was that a scgb was allowed unpaid leaders on the mountain, I guess the key point of law will be if they are being paid.
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jbob, I was just about to say that as well; thanks for using better words than I would have.
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No word on the SCGB forum about any arrest.....................
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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KenX, not really a surprise there.
Arrested, due in court september. No SCGB reps in Tignes this week. Which is a big shame. We had a great time with them last week as always. THis week we have used the club to hook up with a family with similar aged kids and abilities and have had a good time too. (probably a bit faster than with the SCGB though as there are just 6 of us). I really think the club should be supporting them very strongly.
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I would ask the question on there, but I'm a leader myself, might get sniffed at!
Sure they'll support him/her all the way though
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Don Keebles, there are certainly some bad examples of ski schools and big groups out there, but it's nonsensical to just rubbish the whole ESF system - it produces some extremely good skiers and kids who go all through their system come out as effective skiers - a heap better than most British holiday skiers, that's for sure.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I saw a group of about 10 kids from a chairlift yesterday - aged about 8 - 9 years old I'd say, following faithfully in the (rather beautiful) tracks of the instructor - even the ones at the back. They were definitely learning - and the contrast between them and four adults not far behind, all zig-zagging and skidding their way down the slope was marked.
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KenX and ed123: the unofficial off-the-record comment by a source close to the Ski Club of GB said: "It's true. But they should be fine. It's just the French police doing one of their usual sweeps". 
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You know it makes sense.
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| KenX wrote: |
I would ask the question on there, but I'm a leader myself, might get sniffed at!
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Don't worry, I've just posted there asking about it. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Haha, just seen it, good man 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I thought SCGB reps/guides were invited guests of the resort they guide at in most cases. Therefore lift passes, accommodation etc.. aren't paid for by SCGB.
Happy to be wrong though.
The ESF lessons I had were all fine. However, last week I saw some huge groups in places (whilst sat on a lift I counted 14 people). The groups I saw with other ski schools were a lot smaller.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I thought SCGB reps/guides were invited guests of the resort they guide at in most cases. Therefore lift passes, accommodation etc.. aren't paid for by SCGB.
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It varies from resort to resort - some are more generous than others. Others will not have anything to do with SCGB as the local ***** is too strong or is disinterested eg St Anton (which does seem to avoid the collective distaste of the English ski fraternity as its not French!)
Oh and the uniform is included as part of the course fees that the individual pays initially.
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Yes I had heard about St Anton.
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Hello, been a while, hope everyone enjoyed their winters. Anyway, here's something I found interesting that was buried away in a French news report from 8 April 2014 [my translation, original below]. It probably belongs in the instructor thread but the two seem to overlap.
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| Taking exception to the fact that Mr Butler was accompanied by a translator, the prosecutor declared, "He should start by learning French because it's a legal requirement for instructors." |
I never knew that. Must be a few people shitting bricks if it's true, I've rarely met a Brit instructor who can do more than order a beer in French. Is it true?
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| Le procureur a également lancé à l'intention du prévenu qui était accompagné d'un interprète : "Déjà il faudrait commencer par apprendre le français car c'est une des conditions légales pour être moniteur". |
http://www.quotidiendutourisme.com/site/production-prison-requise-contre-un-to-britannique-a-megeve-78184.html
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albinomountainbadger, I recall a BASS instructor, long ago, saying that he'd been worried about the "French language test" but it had been ridiculously easy. I have a lot of sympathy with the Simon Butler problem (though I only know what I've read here) but I do think somebody who has been running a business for so long, and been struggling with this kind of problem for many years, should be able to speak French pretty well. I think the prosecutor was saying that Butler should have started by learning French (ie long ago, not now). Maybe he does speak French well, but just felt the need for a translator for the legal complexities?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w, I agree, I spend my working and social life operating in French, but if my livelihood and freedom were on the line I'd rather a fully qualified professional were there to explain everything to me. Most people don't understand 'legalese' in their own language, let alone a second.
Interesting re the instructor's remark; I wonder if that was an internal test the school ran (I know some French ones run a casual English test), or part of the BASI qualification?
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A british instructor, working in the PdS, that I spoke to briefly in the lift queue while out there made the comment that Simon Butler "has been taking the wee wee for a long time" and that he's "making it harder for those of us who are fully qualified and stick to the rules"
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