 Poster: A snowHead
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Ski guiding remains free with UK tour operators to Italy and presumably other alpine countries, so is this just a French thing ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Peter S wrote: |
| Ski guiding remains free with UK tour operators to Italy and presumably other alpine countries, so is this just a French thing ? |
Yes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Saint wrote: |
Having just read the article, (and it is available on PDF, http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Faucigny/ then go to the PDF area on the right in blue for €1); it is quite clear that this concerns Simon Butler and Simon Butler Skiing Ltd.
The main text is a precis of the facts of the case as laid out by the prosecution (procureur), followed by 2 direct quotes. There is no appeal yet since the verdict is due on November 14th at 14.00hrs.
There seems to be no substantial alteration of material facts in the article but of course since it is journalism, there is no reporting of what the defense have said. Simon was expecting this result, so is it any surprise that his company (presumably the French subsidiary) has no income? This kind of thing happens in the UK too before a trial. It would really surprise me if he does not carry on business more or less as usual and I would be even more surprised if clients money would not be safe.
That said, it is entirely possible he will get at least a small prison sentence for persistently flouting French law. It is not the local ski schools who are persisting with this action but the French ministry of sport, the article is quite correct in saying this has now been going on for over 10 years. |
Drawing a quick conclusion from this, it would seem that Simon Butler Skiing is a dodgy outfit. Is that actually true?
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| Quote: |
Is that actually true?
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No, but that's no doubt the conclusion the journalist wanted you to draw.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ysb33r, that depends on whether you're a British skier ('great business, super service') or a French ski instructor ('unqualified outfit, unfairly stealing our work'). The article I posted and which Saint refers to is very much in the side of the French and yes SBS has at least once broken French law in the past. This thread (even its inaccurate title) is very much on the side of the British and argues that the French law is itself breaking EU law. SBS has also beaten at least one of the charges in the past. It'll take years and lots more courts to find out the 'truth'. Note that part of the case seems to be about employment contracts or conditions - nearly every British tour operator in France is in breach of these local regulations, most of the time the authorities turn a blind eye but the charges are added on if something else goes wrong.
Something of relevance to the French motivation here might be the ongoing battle in Megeve with hotel concierges. The same paper has a much larger story on the taxi drivers, hairdressers and ski instructors obliged tto pay hotel concierges up to 25% commission on any client revenue. Some pay and some don't, but those who don't face a real struggle to get work. That no doubt applies more to taxi drivers than ski instructors, but with the unfairness inherent in the ESF list system it's easy to understand why a newly qualified, unemployed French ski instructor and his journalist friends would resent seeing clients with unqualified British ones.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| ysb33r, that depends on whether you're a British skier ('great business, super service') or a French ski instructor ('unqualified outfit, unfairly stealing our work'). The article I posted and which Saint refers to is very much in the side of the French and yes SBS has at least once broken French law in the past. This thread (even its inaccurate title) is very much on the side of the British and argues that the French law is itself breaking EU law. SBS has also beaten at least one of the charges in the past. It'll take years and lots more courts to find out the 'truth'. Note that part of the case seems to be about employment contracts or conditions - nearly every British tour operator in France is in breach of these local regulations, most of the time the authorities turn a blind eye but the charges are added on if something else goes wrong. |
Thank you, that provided a much better insight.
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All of SBS instructors hold qualifications that would make them 100% legal and fully qualified in many other countries in Europe and wider afield.
It is only in France that those qualifications are deemed "unqualified" but for more on that settle down and do some searching around the Eurotest.
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O.K. it's Sunday morning and I have a bit of time. There is nothing wrong with Simon Butler's business model, indeed all of his clients that I have spoken to love his services. The fact that he has been in business for such a long time proves this.
This thread started because a "ski guide" was arrested in the three valleys for taking groups on the mountains, for payment, without being either a) a ski instructor, or b) a high mountain guide. Under French law that is that, whether we agree or not the law is black and white and has been there for a long time. It was the police who prosecuted, not the ESF, who were just joined onto the action as an "injured" party by the invitation of the prosecutor.
Simon was originally, (over 10 years ago) prosecuted for running an illegal ski school, and in spite of paying heavy fines he eventually won on appeal by being able to show that his model of ski school and the instructors he employed was not that much different from the French model. The original complaints came - mainly - from the ESF. The ESF then took no further action.
Then came a random control by the French sports ministry. These happen regularly, all over France, they are not announced in advance and are there to make sure local ski schools are following the regulations. It was found that among the teachers Simon was employing were those who were not fully qualified and should be stagiares, or trainees. Simon's ski school, under French regulations does not have training status. 1) there are not enough Instructors and 2) They are British qualified, so although they have the right to work they do not have the right to act as trainers under the french system. This current prosecution is a follow on from that and is in the hands of the French sports ministry.
It is Simon's viewpoint that he should be allowed some trainees. At the moment under French regulations this is not the case. The regulations will have to be looked at under European law if anyone has the money to pursue it that far. I believe BASI are doing so, but the process is a long one.
Therefore according to french law Simon is running a ski school in an illegal fashion. The instructors themselves then run the risk of prosecution as in the case of the "ski guide" since they are taking groups on the hill without being ski instructors or being official trainees registered with the sports ministry.
Simon's model since it falls outside French regulations, means that according to BASI regulations, any instructor working for him who has not an ISTD is operating outside of their own BASI qualifications. This is because any instructor who is not an ISTD must work within a legal ski school environment.
I hope this helps.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It does sound cut and dried and the 'when in Rome do as the Romans' seems to be pretty relevant.
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| Quote: |
All of SBS instructors hold qualifications that would make them 100% legal and fully qualified in many other countries in Europe and wider afield.
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So why don't they work in a country where they are 100% legal and fully qualified?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| never summer wrote: |
| Quote: |
All of SBS instructors hold qualifications that would make them 100% legal and fully qualified in many other countries in Europe and wider afield.
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So why don't they work in a country where they are 100% legal and fully qualified? |
If the quote was accurate the French Prosecutor seemed to suggest that he just wanted to set up a British Empire in France??
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I am friends with an Aussie who lives locally who is a direct descendent of Henry of Aquitaine (Henry II to us) so no worries mate!
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| Quote: |
If the quote was accurate the French Prosecutor seemed to suggest that he just wanted to set up a British Empire in France??
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 I would be thinking that maybe competition is high in these other countries so running this business in France probably was seen as an easier way to make money. But as a customer that would make me think that if you are not good enough to compete where you are legal, you are probably not good enough in any case... As a customer I don't care who I am paying to as long as these people are fully qualified according to local regulations.
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You know it makes sense.
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Saint, a very useful post. The article seems to refer to additional charges related to 'community policy on foreign workers'. Is this the case, or does it just mean instructing qualifications again?
I ask because we tend to focus on the ski instructor qualifications, but in France breaking labour regulations is much worse. In the Le Ski case people forget that the bulk of the fine was related to wages and overtime, not instructing/guiding.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 3-11-13 11:38; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Isn't the French beef also around companies able to compete unfairly as they are not abiding by local employment contractual law??
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yes this is also about community law and employment law, although I have no details since I do not have the court transcript. There is a tendency to go through everything and Simon has had some hefty fines in that area too. Sometimes though it is the way the local courts interpret things and then it gets overturned on appeal. Where local regulations meet with community law and British law (since many people are employed in Britain) the whole thing gets very complicated - and - frankly- boring.
Since this is a skiing forum I have concentrated on that. In any case it is the emotive area for most of us!
I am now looking for a Caesar look alike to set up a new Roman Empire in the Haute Savoie too!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It might be boring but it's why a British hotel only pays staff 300quid a month when their French competition has to shell out nearly 2000 (wages and social charges). It casts light on why the French bring these cases, other than the simple 'they don't like Brit businesses' nonsense of the tabloids.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yes there are many jobs in Chamonix that you can only get if you accept a British contract, some argue market forces others say exploitation. I got a friends son a local contract for this winter working in a French ski shop, guess he may even learn French instead of Gap Yah English!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Removed, following accidental edit.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 3-11-13 15:38; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Not in this case, there is a derogation on the automatic recognition of qualifications in the case of skiing - that was asked for by France Italy and Austria - and is valid. Which is why so far as European law is concerned the issue is nearly cut and dried with about 2 years of paperwork to go on mutual instructor licenses. What is recognised as a qualification between the main countries (Britain included) was settled ages ago.
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| Quote: |
the principle is that when in Rome your non-Roman qualifications must be accepted, in the same way as they would be in the country they were awarded.
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This is the general principle which doesn't apply 100% of the time as is in the case of skiing.
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| never summer wrote: |
| Quote: |
If the quote was accurate the French Prosecutor seemed to suggest that he just wanted to set up a British Empire in France??
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I would be thinking that maybe competition is high in these other countries so running this business in France probably was seen as an easier way to make money. But as a customer that would make me think that if you are not good enough to compete where you are legal, you are probably not good enough in any case... As a customer I don't care who I am paying to as long as these people are fully qualified according to local regulations. |
Seriously? I have never heard a bad word said about SBS by British customers. Of course I can't say the same thing about Les Pulls Rouges. I don't see a boycott by ethical customers derailing the SBS business model anytime soon.
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Maybe they have different standards, I don't know. I speak French so I never had a requirement of an English speaking instructor, I didn't need entertainment etc. I used to take private lessons in Chamonix with ESF and don't remember being disappointed. In any case, if SBS is so good why don't they operate in a country where they are 100% legal? Just for the thrill of breaking the law? Seems to me a case of an old good unfair competition. Not good enough to compete legally. You can say whatever you like about the laws, but somehow many manage to operate without breaking it, though of course they are not cheap. And even if the law might eventually change until this happens everyone is bound by it.
"Ethical" customers is a strange concept because clearly people have different ethics. Some don't mind getting service from outlets whose stuff is being paid in beer money, do it for the fun of it and being generally supported by their families at home. 300 quid a month! Some like being served by people tied to the mountains and actually trying to make a living there and going for all the necessary qualifications if they are required for their jobs. Yes, it takes time, dedication and investment and I don't mind paying more for it, because these things should be rewarded, rather than trying to save a buck and using outlet operating outside of law to remain "competitive". In this particular thread lot of "ethics" seems to be based on desire to get something for nothing and crying when they are not able to get this or blind support for a British business which in my book is not ethics at all.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| It does sound cut and dried and the 'when in Rome do as the Romans' seems to be pretty relevant. |
Rome's only relevance is the Treaty of Rome, as amended. Ironically, as far as qualifications are concerned, the principle is that when in Rome your non-Roman qualifications must be accepted, in the same way as they would be in the country they were awarded. |
| Quote: |
| Not in this case, there is a derogation on the automatic recognition of qualifications in the case of skiing - that was asked for by France Italy and Austria - and is valid. Which is why so far as European law is concerned the issue is nearly cut and dried with about 2 years of paperwork to go on mutual instructor licenses. What is recognised as a qualification between the main countries (Britain included) was settled ages ago. |
There is indeed a derogation for ski instruction, which states that the host country most show, on an individual basis, that an applicant's foreign qualifications are substantially different to those of the host country; and that it must take into account the applicant's post-qualification experience before, if justified, applying a test. I'm not sure that the French authorities have ever done that. As far as I can tell, the Eurotest itself has no legal standing, and the implication is that the nature of the test should be a function of the "substantial" differences. Perhaps this has been superseded, but I can't find anything else:
http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qualifications/docs/ski/com-2000-2262/com-2000-2262_en.pdf
So, as far as those SBS instructors who are not ITSDs, this procedure should now happen (though I somehow doubt it will). If it does take place, and supposing a test was required which those instructors failed, they are still above stagiaire entry level and should be allowed to teach as part of their own development; which brings us back to the point someone else raised of SBS not being a training establishment on the French model. The rules for that apparently state a minimum of 10 ISTDs, who have gained their qualification in France, are required. I cannot see how that can be legal at the European level: I believe there are rules about minimum numbers (quite rightly, to avoid discrimination against small businesses); and the 'French ISTD' stipulation is laughable.
Expect this to go all the way to Europe, where Simon Butler took a previous case and won. (Last time around, a French appeal court thew out a similar case before it got that far.)
Far from Simon Butler continually flouting the law, it could be a case of the French authorities continually flouting a higher law.
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| never summer wrote: |
| "Ethical" customers is a strange concept because clearly people have different ethics. Some don't mind getting service from outlets whose stuff is being paid in beer money, do it for the fun of it and being generally supported by their families at home. 300 quid a month! Some like being served by people tied to the mountains and actually trying to make a living there and going for all the necessary qualifications if they are required for their jobs. Yes, it takes time, dedication and investment and I don't mind paying more for it, because these things should be rewarded, rather than trying to save a buck and using outlet operating outside of law to remain "competitive". In this particular thread lot of "ethics" seems to be based on desire to get something for nothing and crying when they are not able to get this or blind support for a British business which in my book is not ethics at all. |
In my version of ethics, a person wouldn't assume another is guilty until the end of the legal process, nor suppose that those that make a different commercial choice do so from the basest of motives.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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laundryman,
Thank you. Someone who understands the issues.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Laundryman.
You are right in what you say, however the tests are as agreed between the individual governments and associations, that bit is done. No ISTD, no right to work as an independent (fully qualified) instructor. For the rest level 2 or 3 BASI plus the test technique and you have the right to be a stagiare. At the moment that is the required route.
Next: French regulations to be a training ski school. - I agree I cannot see how this stands up under European law but who has the money and time to pursue it?
For the moment SBS is being pursed by a French government department relentlessly because at the moment they do not follow French regulations. In terms of judging before the result of the case, they were found guilty under the same regulations and facts last year and lost. We will all see on the 14th November. I have no views on who should, or whether there should be any boycotting of anything - since to do so one may have to boycott the whole of France.
At the end of the day SBS depends on it's customers, the business model may have to change but if the customers continue to be happy they will have the last word.
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I would agree if he went to challenge the law before running a business outside it.
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You know it makes sense.
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I don't get why he continues to operate in France, presumably thus paying at least some minor taxes to a State that prosecutes him ad nauseum. If his product is as good as we are told, it would work anywhere. If it's a crusade to change the system, do BASI even have his back?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I would be thinking that maybe competition is high in these other countries so running this business in France probably was seen as an easier way to make money.
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My guess is that "barriers to entry" are higher in some other countries than they are in France. There doesn't seem any other logical reason why there are so few British chalets, ski schools, etc in Austria (where some ski instructors have only pretty low level qualifications) and so many in France.
In the States, as far as I can judge from some other Snowheads threads, the resorts seem entirely to control who can teach skiing. Lesson prices are very high but instructors are apparently not well-paid. Lucky old middleman! People teaching skiing in France seem to take home a higher proportion of what the punter pays than in many (any?) other places.
So the playing field might not be altogether level in France but it is possibly even less level elsewhere. The conclusion that "competition" (in the free market sense of the word) is higher elsewhere than in France is spurious.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| never summer wrote: |
| I would agree if he went to challenge the law before running a business outside it. |
The EU law *is* the law. So, as before, we shall see whether he has been operating outside it or not (previously, the answer has been 'not'), though there may be a long way to go...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Has anyone here seen the webcast from yesterdays BASI open forum where Simon states the case of who can work in France and under what conditions?
Very interesting it may be that you do not necessary need to be ISTD (or stagiare in a French ski school) to work in France.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I can't watch the video right now so apologies if this is answered in it, but are Le Ski challenging just the ski host thing or the wages and hours violations too? The lanetski article suggests only the hosting issue but the minimum wage thing was half the original fine (give or take).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The video with Simon Atkinson is interesting. I see he has been put forward now a few times as the spokesperson for the ESF and he puts a reasonable and conciliatory case.
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Ah, apparently decision in Le Ski case now deferred until May 2014. This avoids any more pre-season upset for French tourist authorities and the ESF, but sure that's just a coincidence...
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albinomountainbadger, It is hardly surprising, with the threat of European action hanging over the judgment. The French will be very careful with this one, as if the European case goes against them it opens up a whole range of challenges to French Laws and practices across a range of industries and issues.
If all involved have any sense the case will quietly disappear and the status quo of what existed previously will go back to where it was, or alternatively it will be challenged all the way through the court system in the EU, Le Ski will probably win but be bankrupted in the process and the French will end up having to open their markets and change their law, everyone involved will have a negative outcome.
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Fattes13, I'd love to see some of these transcripts as I'm really not sure how Le Ski could go to Europe on this. Simon Butler, yes, he has a strong and clear argument that his instructors' qualifications should be recognised and he should be allowed to operate a ski school as he would in any other country.
But Le Ski staff don't have any qualifications to recognise. Le Ski are, in effect, trying to force the French to accept a new and unqualified job of 'ski concierge'. I don't see why Europe would be interested in that. Ski hosting doesn't exist in the UK so they can hardly claim French law is preventing them from exercising their profession.
The French have decided that the mountains are dangerous and you need to be qualified to lead people around them. Is it really in anyone's interest to see that struck down entirely? Is it even within the European court's remit to make such a decision?
Honestly can't see what Le Ski expect to get here other than as you say, very large legal bills.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
But Le Ski staff don't have any qualifications to recognise. Le Ski are, in effect, trying to force the French to accept a new and unqualified job of 'ski concierge'. I don't see why Europe would be interested in that. Ski hosting doesn't exist in the UK so they can hardly claim French law is preventing them from exercising their profession.
The French have decided that the mountains are dangerous and you need to be qualified to lead people around them. Is it really in anyone's interest to see that struck down entirely?
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The ski host thing is an odd one, the world Guide in the French law has yet to be tested as to its meaning, Personally when I hear the world GUIDE in relation to skiing I think UIAGM guides, or the requirement to have a guide in high mountain glacial terrain. But that is just me.
Technically Le Ski could argue that if ski guiding is illegal so is any tour guide in France without a qualification? Because all they are doing is providing a tour guide service but in a mountain resort. You could also argue the law is intentionally restrictive to create a monopoly for ESF as other European nations like Austria and Italy allow this with no issue. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
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Le Ski will probably win but be bankrupted in the process
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I thought that Le Ski costs were being paid by a consortium of the major UK TO's ?
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FAQ
