 Poster: A snowHead
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Arno, I just had a look at the Eagles Ski Club site. The club looks very good and it may be worth letting all Snowheads know about it. I for one didnt have a clue they existed until I read your post. Certainly an excellent alternative to the SCGB.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, I can't believe you had to go back to 7th Sept 2004 to see when DG used the word Transparency to somehow prove your theory that JJ is really him  . Nice one Sherlock. You've got him banged to rights.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Red Dave, Very sensible given the current direction of this thread 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Arno, I just had a look at the Eagles Ski Club site. The club looks very good and it may be worth letting all Snowheads know about it. I for one didnt have a clue they existed until I read your post. Certainly an excellent alternative to the SCGB. |
Me too, have bookmarked the site for a good look later http://www.eagleskiclub.org.uk/
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
| have you actually read my post about what is required for the ISIA qualification? answer = very little |
I am well aware of the requirements for an ISIA qualification. Yes, its only 6 days off piste training - which isnt a lot. However it is an internationally recognized certificate - unlike the SCofGB reps training course.
Hence my suggestion that BASI maybe need to think about a wider range of club level certification's ?
As opposed to solely offering professional qualifications ? |
I still don't know what you think this would achieve. Why would I do it? I have already done courses which provide a more sophisticated level of knowledge than the BASI one offers. How do you know the SCGB one isn't equally as good? Why should I, who now has no interest in teaching anyone, have anything to do with BASI?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Arno wrote: |
| achilles, I do think it's helpful for the ESC that it is very clear on its role in life - it is a ski touring/mountaineering club and that's it. That means its members and their aspirations are a bit more clearly defined and people are less likely to get the wrong end of the stick about what it offers.... |
To go on a SCGB tour you do have to have an appropriate SCGB standard. Most members of the tour will have been on a Freshtracks holiday before, and there grade will have been derived from reports from that. That leaves skiers who join the club to go on the tour. These have to fill in a question sheet. That could lead to over-grading. However, I think most tours have a through warm up day where members are closely scrutinized by the guide. The tour that I went on did. In practice, I thought that members of the trip were no over-graded. Indeed, I went on a beginners' trip - and found that the majority were experienced tourers - who fancied going to the location - and, I think, liked the guide. Turned out to be a bonus for me, since there tips and encouragement were a real bonus. AFIK, all Freshtracks tours are led by a guide
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| The pre-tour vetting process is also helpful. As far as I can tell, with a SCGB rep you just turn up and ski. OK, you can tell a lot about a skier from one warm-up run or so, but there's also plenty you can't find out too easily |
Well, with a rep's party at a resort you do. But in my experience, the reps scrutinise newcomers carefully - during the warm up and then, on advanced days upping the standard progressively to make sure all members of the group are up to scratch.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| achilles, I can't believe you had to go back to 7th Sept 2004 to see when DG used the word Transparency to somehow prove your theory that JJ is really him . Nice one Sherlock. You've got him banged to rights. |
I think so - bearing in mind his enthusiasm for the word for a while on the SCGB forum - and the sequence at the opening of the carpetbagging thread - and the overall writing style, and avoidance of the comment by experienced skiers not in line with his. But hunose.
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Haggis_Trap,
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Whilst on rant , the SC of Great Britian is a bizarely named club - since they have nothing what so ever to do with skiing in the UK, or indeed Scotland. Indeed their membership seems to be comprised of upper class southern english people who prefer to ski abroad...
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Agreed - I have never seen them in Scotland.
Now I`ve never made use of the SCGB so please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. The reps are all competent skiers with probably an Alpine Ski Leader Cert.. ie. they are covered to "guide" people around the mountain.. by this I have always assumed this meant the on-piste environment... showing them around the resort and telling the punters where the good runs are.. much like the ski partners you find at most N. American resorts.. not instructing but showing guests around the mountain to help get them orientated so they can make the most of their holiday.
I had no idea that they ventured off intop the off-piste environment as guides!!!!!
My question is - Why would a good or even a beginner off pister use a SCGB rep instead of hiring a fully qualified professional instructor/mountain guide...??????????
Absolute flamin madness.... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arno wrote: |
They have leaders who may or may not be qualified!!!
However, they do a certain amount of vetting on leaders. I now lead trips and they way I got into it was to do a reasonable amount of touring and off-piste skiing (both guided and unguided, with the club and outside). I also attended some training courses. Having done their advanced alpine course (which I think tackled things much more advanced than the first BASI off-piste/mountain safety but doesn't lead to a formal qualification) the guide who organised the course suggested I come to the next leaders meet. I try to go to this every year now and it's very useful - we exchange experiences on tours we have led, ideas for future tours etc.
In order to get on a tour, you need to apply giving references so that leaders can check out applicants' real ability (rather than just go on how good they say they are). It's up to the leader to decide whether s/he wants to take on a marginal applicant. At my level, I generally try to fill my tours with people who I know are at least as good as me. I think I know my limitations and there are some situations where I am happy making decisions on behalf of less experienced people and plenty where I am not.
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So, if I understand this correctly, this Eagle Ski Club operate with unqualified leaders, who vet people before allowing them to join tours. What makes them qualified to make a vetting judgement on another persons' capabilities?
It reads as quite pompous and very cliquey. I think I would much rather pay a real Mountain Guide and get the job done properly.
Seems that there is not much difference between the SCGB Reps service and the Eagle Ski club?
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| mrtoastie wrote: |
| Agreed - I have never seen them in Scotland |
I used to teach groups of 'em on Cairngorm mid 80s. And they weren't from Scotland or the North, they were all southern Hoorays. I'll never forget because one or two wore country shirts with ties under their jackets.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Arno, are SCGB courses recognised by http://www.isiaski.org/en/1/index.html ?
If not the guy off the street doesn`t know whether or not the training the reps recieve is up to sctratch (I am sure it is very good training ) but without recognition by ISIA it doesn`t cut it IMHO.
-- also if you are taking skiers who are not very experienced off piste into the soft stuff then also IMHO you are "teaching". They are experiencing an environment they don`t often venture to.. they are developing new skiing skills by watching you.. they are also learning about snow conditions.. different snowpack types... choosing lines.. what areas to avoid... they are learning through experience and watching.. you are also responsible for the well being of the group.. you are therefore teaching.. so why not get a recognised qualification.. it is a no brainer! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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mrtoastie, well the reps' course has mountain guide and BASI qulaified instructors - so I presume you are saying that they are absolutely flaming mad. Oh, and davidof and Arno -very experienced skiers are absolutely flaming mad as well. Clearly I am, because for many seasons I have skied with reps off piste. I wonder how I survived.
As a chartered engineer, I am now not allowed to do wiring in my own house because I do not hold an electrician's part P certificate. I don't feel any safer through having to use an electrician, but a closed shop is now effectively in force. I am beginning to think the attacks here are coming from the ignorant (never skied with a rep, and don't know what they are talking about) and those who think their closed instructor/guide shop is threatened if people feel they can venture of piste with anybody other than a guide. Of course there are places I would not venture off-piste without a guide. Of course people can be killed 'just off piste'. But that does not mean that quite a lot of off piste is not accessible in reasonable safety without a guide. And saying that you think it in big black letters does not make it so.
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You know it makes sense.
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Achilles - The SCofGB reps course *might* be very good. However the fact is thats its not an officially recognized international qualification for skiing off piste with others.
Even upper class people have to conform to the rules 
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 23-10-07 11:12; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| jonesj71 wrote: |
So, if I understand this correctly, this Eagle Ski Club operate with unqualified leaders, who vet people before allowing them to join tours. What makes them qualified to make a vetting judgement on another persons' capabilities?
It reads as quite pompous and very cliquey. I think I would much rather pay a real Mountain Guide and get the job done properly.
Seems that there is not much difference between the SCGB Reps service and the Eagle Ski club? |
The vetting is on ski ability, mountaineering ability, fitness, experience etc. As a leader you want to make sure that people are going to be able to fit together as a team in terms of ability. You hope they'll all get on on a personal level too 
The dynamics of a member-led tour and a guide led tour are very different. If you want someone who is doing a "job" for you, you go with a guide and pay them. They will organise everything for you, lead you where it's safe and you can follow them without engaging your own brain.
If you want to join a group of people who are doing a tour somewhere which sounds attractive and you're happy going into the mountains without a guide, you can go on a member led tour. You pay a guide a fee plus expenses and then you have your own expenses as well. On a member led tour you just pay for your own expenses. It makes quite a big difference.
And some people like being responsible for their own decisions in the mountains! Is that really so hard to understand? Amongst the Eagles' membership, there is a feeling that if anything there are too many guide-led tours.
So if you want to pay someone to take responsibility for your safety, go with a UIAGM guide. If you want to join a group of like-minded individuals, take part in the decision-making process, take responsibility for yourself join a club group, be it SCGB, ESC, CAF etc
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Poster: A snowHead
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| achilles wrote: |
| I wonder how I survived |
Some haven't tho'.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, maybe I have misread this thread.. there are degrees of off piste. It is very ambiguous I agree!!
I definately think SCGB reps should be able to take better skiers into more challenging environments...why not? The mountains are for everyone to enjoy. I like the idea of skiers being responsible for themselves.. knowing their limits and understanding potential dangers. It is unfortunate though that sometimes people get carried away and forget about there limitations. That is why there has to be boundaries.. this will be dictated by the resort and snow conditions.
The SCGB courses are run by mountain guides and BASI instructors. That is good... but if I get taught to fly by a fighter pilot does that mean I am qualified to teach a newby pilot in a fighter jet? -- possibly silly example but I hope you see what I am getting at.
Did not mean to come across as confrontational 
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brian
brian
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| Arno wrote: |
So if you want to pay someone to take responsibility for your safety, go with a UIAGM guide. If you want to join a group of like-minded individuals, take part in the decision-making process, take responsibility for yourself join a club group, be it SCGB, ESC, CAF etc |
Totally agree with this, and it's very much the impression I get reading the Eagles stuff. However, from my position of ignorance, I'm not so sure that's how the SCGB rep stuff comes across. Is this responsibility made clear to the punters ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| achilles wrote: |
| I wonder how I survived |
Some haven't tho'. |
How many, Bode - and how does that compare with those who have skied with guides?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| brian wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
So if you want to pay someone to take responsibility for your safety, go with a UIAGM guide. If you want to join a group of like-minded individuals, take part in the decision-making process, take responsibility for yourself join a club group, be it SCGB, ESC, CAF etc |
Totally agree with this, and it's very much the impression I get reading the Eagles stuff. However, from my position of ignorance, I'm not so sure that's how the SCGB rep stuff comes across. Is this responsibility made clear to the punters ? |
Pretty much how I recall the pre-skiing brief. Not sure what the site says, it's broken in FF, which I am using for the moment, it was working in IE last time I looked - why not go there and see?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| mrtoastie wrote: |
Arno, are SCGB courses recognised by http://www.isiaski.org/en/1/index.html ?
If not the guy off the street doesn`t know whether or not the training the reps recieve is up to sctratch (I am sure it is very good training ) but without recognition by ISIA it doesn`t cut it IMHO.
-- also if you are taking skiers who are not very experienced off piste into the soft stuff then also IMHO you are "teaching". They are experiencing an environment they don`t often venture to.. they are developing new skiing skills by watching you.. they are also learning about snow conditions.. different snowpack types... choosing lines.. what areas to avoid... they are learning through experience and watching.. you are also responsible for the well being of the group.. you are therefore teaching.. so why not get a recognised qualification.. it is a no brainer! |
why on earth should it be recognised by ISIA? ISIA is a ski instructors' organisation not a mountain safety organisation. I have never done anything with the SCGB but I am sure they are extremely careful to avoid any suggestion that they are teaching. what you describe certainly does not reflect anything i have led or organised
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brian
brian
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achilles, I was more interested in your 1st hand experience of using the service ... and if it's made clear in the p-s brief then that sounds fine to me.
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mrtoastie, if you get taught to fly by a fighter pilot, he/she would not expect you to take out a Harrier. But the reps' course guides and instructors do know what the purpose of the course is.
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brian
brian
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mrtoastie, UIAGM guides don't need any teaching qualifications, so it can't be that much of a no brainer !
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brian, but they have recognised guiding qualifications...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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achilles, I am not David Goldsmith. I've never spoken to him or communicated directly with him in any way, although I have had one or two arguments with him on . It's strange that you're much more keen to knock me (Am I David Goldsmith? What vested interests do I have? Am I a good enough skier to have a legitimate view) than you are to deal with my central point, which you have studiously avoided.
Let's be clear what the issue is - and it seems that the SCGB has recognised it.
1. It's OK for groups of private individuals to take risks together
2. It's OK for highly trained professionals to take people into risky situations provided the profession is properly controlled and regulated
3. It's not OK to use a club structure to pass yourself off as a highly trained professional and risk deluding a not very well informed general public
The SCGB could have resolved its problem in any one of three perfectly satisfactory ways. It could have insisted its reps were trained to an international standards. It could have ceased promoting itself in a way that's indistinguishable from a commercial ski outfit. Or, as it has done, it could have curtailed the riskier end of its activites.
Apart from not liking me, which part of my argument don't you agree with?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Jonny Jones, very eloquently put.
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How many, Bode - and how does that compare with those who have skied with guides?
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One in Verbier about 20 years ago. One in Verbier just last winter (although I don't know what the circumstances were, it's just mentioned in the club's annual report - does any one know what happened?) I'm told there was a third a number of years back but the details of such events doesn't generally get aired in public for all kinds of reasons. Wonder what the "Accident Book" says about non-fatal incidents over the years. Isn't that enough? And why compare with guides etc? All deaths are avoidable.
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You know it makes sense.
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Jonny Jones, bit busy at the moment David - get back to you later. But who says I don't like you? We got along perfectly well both times we have met.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| ....All deaths are avoidable. |
Immortality? Truly you are the Messiah! Or are you just a very naughty boy?
Guys, I really do have to do some work, fascinating though the mindsets are of some posters here. I shall try to stay away for a few hours (OK, I might peek!) but I will be back.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Anybody know why there's no longer an SCGB rep in St Anton, Austria?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The Gnomeinator
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Dont go to the mountains and you will not be killed by an avalanche
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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achilles, must say that I think you have it wrong. Bode Swiller is FAR more likely to be DG than Jonny Jones
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DB, I was told that the resort didn't want to continue paying for accommodation and they have proper mountain guides there who can truely open up all the possibilities of the area.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Arno wrote: |
The vetting is on ski ability, mountaineering ability, fitness, experience etc. As a leader you want to make sure that people are going to be able to fit together as a team in terms of ability. You hope they'll all get on on a personal level too
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Such a lot of responsibility for an unqualified person. All that, plus psychological profiling as well.
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The dynamics of a member-led tour and a guide led tour are very different. If you want someone who is doing a "job" for you, you go with a guide and pay them. They will organise everything for you, lead you where it's safe and you can follow them without engaging your own brain.
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You must have skied with the wrong guides over the years. You imply that clients simply follow like sheep. That just ain't true.
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If you want to join a group of people who are doing a tour somewhere which sounds attractive and you're happy going into the mountains without a guide, you can go on a member led tour. You pay a guide a fee plus expenses and then you have your own expenses as well. On a member led tour you just pay for your own expenses. It makes quite a big difference.
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Joining the Freemasons sounds easier to achieve.
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And some people like being responsible for their own decisions in the mountains! Is that really so hard to understand? Amongst the Eagles' membership, there is a feeling that if anything there are too many guide-led tours.
So if you want to pay someone to take responsibility for your safety, go with a UIAGM guide. If you want to join a group of like-minded individuals, take part in the decision-making process, take responsibility for yourself join a club group, be it SCGB, ESC, CAF etc |
I prefer to take my own decisions, and not have the call made by someone who arrived in the resort yesterday, be they either some beardy, or southern hooray.
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nbt, I expect Sherlock Gnomes was up all night studying my sentence construction, looking for split infinitives etc and comparing to DG's. I confess I once use the word "the" in an early post and I fear this has exposed me as it is one of DG's favourite words too.
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I must say I am getting more and more depressed by the way litigeousness has spread over here from the US and consequently "Health and Safety" has taken over how everything is run. I would never think of taking a guide to court unless I thought (s)he had been very clearly negligent. You have to accept that certain activities imply some danger.
I am not sure I would ever have skied with a rep and subsequently joined the ski club if they hadn't done some off-piste leading. I know at least one rep who has already given up repping because of the increased restrictions on off piste guiding. (He also tells me the club have not given much support to reps who have been taken to court, though I do not know how true this is.)
I think the standard of skiing of reps is being a bit overstated. The requirement is really only to be an advanced intermediate (Ski Club Silver), though many of of the reps are extremely good - a few being better than one or two guides I have skied with. In general the better resorts get the best reps.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Some observations ( I am not looking to get into some pointless argument on the subject) :-
1) Most of the reps skiing is still on piste for the five or six days of their standard weekly programme.
2) Reps used to hand out avalanche transceivers for off piste ventures. That, at least, is better than skiing off piste without one.
3) If there was a big enough crowd of serious off piste types, the rep would make arrangements to hire a guide ( at extra expense).
4) If you want a full off piste week, the Fresh Tracks holidays would seem to be one option within the SCGB.
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Regarding the number of deaths under the auspices of SCGB.
The insurance industry shares information (We are told this when applying for or making a claim) therefore this might explain why the current action by the clubs insureres has been taken.
The only point worthy of debate now is the 'little bit pregnant' scenario.
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FAQ
