 Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
| will kill interest in this thread long before Ski Beat get around to it |
I'm sure there's a long way to go yet 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I don't know that what I've said is right, which why I'm asking. You, on the other hand, claim it's all misinformed. So your law credentials are?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
PJSki, I think it's more a question of completely uninformed. Nobody on here is acquainted with more than a tiniest fraction, if that, of the relevant facts and, so far as I am aware, nobody who has posted is a defamation lawyer. Alternatively, if there is a defamation lawyer on here, he/she is very wisely keeping quiet! I know nothing about defamation, btw, except that it's quite a complicated area of law, particularly in relation to the internet. My gut tells me that if there is a problem regarding publication, it's admin's and not mine or yours, so my view is that it's best to let him worry about it (though I sincerely hope there's no need for him to worry.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Phil_D wrote: |
| Quote: |
| will kill interest in this thread long before Ski Beat get around to it |
I'm sure there's a long way to go yet |
Yep, now we have badger shite to clean up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Hurtle wrote: |
| PJSki, I think it's more a question of completely uninformed. Nobody on here is acquainted with more than a tiniest fraction, if that, of the relevant facts and, so far as I am aware, nobody who has posted is a defamation lawyer. Alternatively, if there is a defamation lawyer on here, he/she is very wisely keeping quiet! I know nothing about defamation, btw, except that it's quite a complicated area of law, particularly in relation to the internet. My gut tells me that if there is a problem regarding publication, it's admin's and not mine or yours, so my view is that it's best to let him worry about it (though I sincerely hope there's no need for him to worry.) |
I'm not worried in the least. Just interested in the liability to publisher/website owners.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
PJSki, fair enough. I'm not sufficiently interested to research an answer for you, sorry. I suspect - and this is just a guess - that if a complaint were made, the thread would have to be pulled, otherwise the site owner could subsequently be accused of aggravating/being complicit in the possible defamation (if defamation were indeed proved.) But this really is just a guess, albeit a vaguely legally-minded one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Hurtle wrote: |
| PJSki, fair enough. I'm not sufficiently interested to research an answer for you, sorry. I suspect - and this is just a guess - that if a complaint were made, the thread would have to be pulled, otherwise the site owner could subsequently be accused of aggravating/being complicit in the possible defamation (if defamation were indeed proved.) But this really is just a guess, albeit a vaguely legally-minded one. |
Basically what I thought and wrote, but I was called an idiot by a badger. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
PJSki, do bother a bit more with reading comprehension.
pandora, wrote
| Quote: |
Garry will not talk about the airports after I reveal I am an airline pilot with 10 years experience flying to the Alps and that I think he is bullsh!tting and that there is more to it.
|
she wrote that during their discussion she told Garry that she doesn't beleive him, based on her professional experience. That is, she just presented the facts (as to the contents of their exchange). She did not call him a liar or bullsh1tter without the backing of facts on this board.
There is a difference between writing "and then i told him that he's bullsh1ting, based on ..." and writing "this man is a liar and bullsh1tter, don't ever believe him"
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| sugardaddy wrote: |
PJSki, do bother a bit more with reading comprehension.
pandora, wrote
| Quote: |
Garry will not talk about the airports after I reveal I am an airline pilot with 10 years experience flying to the Alps and that I think he is bullsh!tting and that there is more to it.
|
she wrote that during their discussion she told Garry that she doesn't beleive him, based on her professional experience. That is, she just presented the facts (as to the contents of their exchange). She did not call him a liar or bullsh1tter without the backing of facts on this board.
There is a difference between writing "and then i told him that he's bullsh1ting, based on ..." and writing "this man is a liar and bullsh1tter, don't ever believe him" |
You haven't addressed the possibility that the rep was passing on this information in good faith. Are you a libel lawyer, by the way?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
My gut - which appears to be unusually talkative tonight - also tells me that the OP probably chewed several people's heads off, but is unlikely to have defamed them, either at the time or since. But my gut could be wrong, it is not well-versed in the relevant area of the law.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Boredsurfing wrote: |
Why have Mumsnet pulled the thread that had exactly the same OP as this thread  |
Maybe they have taken legal advice. They certainly have had problems with litigation in the past. Or it could just be them exercising some risk management.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 23-01-10 23:46; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Doesn't name names or go into the same level of detail. So it seems that someone on that site has drawn a distinction between that review and the copy of the OP in this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
PJSki, one last time before I call it a night.
Please take a minute to ponder on what i wrote. Good faith is not involved. It might have been relevant if the op was something like "that liar of a rep" or some other sweeping characterisation. As it is, she just retold the conversation, and at that time she had reason not to believe him, and told him so. Again, there is a differnce between "you're lying to me now, on this matter" and posting "X is a liar up to no good".
All of it is factual recall (and if good faith is relevant at all, i think it's Pandora's good faith at the time, that she wasn't receiving the actual facts). I am not a lawyer, but I have attended a seminar on this subject, not in the UK, but as far as know, the basic reasoning is the same, and we are talking about a very basic distinction.
Good night
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
sugardaddy, so you're not a lawyer. Thanks, that's all I wanted to know from you.
Good faith is involved because if the rep was passing the information on in good faith he cannot have been bullshitting. And anyway, I was merely asking a question regarding the law and was not making judgment either way.
Also, of course, mumsnet seem, at the moment, to have taken a different view to you and acted accordingly.
| Quote: |
| Good faith is not involved. It might have been relevant if the op was something like "that liar of a rep" or some other sweeping characterisation. |
Something like this, for example?
| Quote: |
Garry is an older man full of his own self-importance, and c0wdoo. |
To the OP: Do you think you were being lied to?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 24-01-10 0:40; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
PJSki,
| Quote: |
Garry is an older man full of his own self-importance, and c0wdoo
|
You're surely not suggesting these mildly insulting words are defamatory, are you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Hurtle wrote: |
PJSki,
| Quote: |
Garry is an older man full of his own self-importance, and c0wdoo
|
You're surely not suggesting these mildly insulting words are defamatory, are you? |
No, I was asking about context and if the context of a word could make it worse. In other words, the inference I take from what she said is that the rep was passing misinformation on purpose, as that is what bullshtters tend to do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Well, I've had another read of the OP and all things considered, it seems a fair way to report what took place on arrival. Probably even quite measured.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| Monium wrote: |
| If I am the kind of person who loses my temper in that situation I have no business acting as a front line resort manager, whose job is often to resolve conflict and diffuse situations. |
Never got angry, never shouted at anyone have you? |
In my professional life - never. Ever. I can't think of a single situation where it would ever possibly be required or appropriate.
I consider it a personal failing to be unable to control one's temper, and it takes some pretty extreme situations for me to become angry to the point of shouting (at least shouting with any kind of menace) at anyone. The last time I lost my temper was when someone did a nice job of trying to do me serious harm, and to be honest it was the only appropriate way to react to keep me safe. It was also more than 5 years ago.
If you need to shout at someone you are no longer in control. And a rep, customer facing employee, you need to have control, and restraint.
Out of all this all the other cock-ups are almost forgivable other than shouting as a response to a very angry and frustrated customer, however they express that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Monium wrote: |
| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| Monium wrote: |
| If I am the kind of person who loses my temper in that situation I have no business acting as a front line resort manager, whose job is often to resolve conflict and diffuse situations. |
Never got angry, never shouted at anyone have you? |
In my professional life - never. Ever. I can't think of a single situation where it would ever possibly be required or appropriate.
I consider it a personal failing to be unable to control one's temper, and it takes some pretty extreme situations for me to become angry to the point of shouting (at least shouting with any kind of menace) at anyone. The last time I lost my temper was when someone did a nice job of trying to do me serious harm, and to be honest it was the only appropriate way to react to keep me safe. It was also more than 5 years ago.
If you need to shout at someone you are no longer in control. And a rep, customer facing employee, you need to have control, and restraint.
Out of all this all the other cock-ups are almost forgivable other than shouting as a response to a very angry and frustrated customer, however they express that. |
Quite correct. Once you've reacted like that towards a customer you will never get their goodwill back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Am I missing the entire point here? I admit I am one of life's more pragmatic types but it strikes me that if Ski Beat are unable to put in place a contingency plan when it snows then perhaps they're in the wrong business? Rocket science? Not really. I gather weather may be "variable" during winter in the Alps... and there is absolutely no excuse on earth for staff speaking to customers in such a manner.
I think a number of people on this thread are being highly critical of Pandora, one might suggest "chips on shoulders" - but no matter if Pandora was indeed the world's worst customer - what sort of shower of poo-poo runs winter holidays and then can't deal with snow? Absolutely bloody ludicrous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Alexandra wrote: |
| what sort of shower of poo-poo runs winter holidays and then can't deal with snow? Absolutely bloody ludicrous. |
In fairness to Ski Beat, staffing issues aside, that weekend was a complete disaster for every TO. We know others who travelled home that weekend with other TO's and it was mayhem everywhere. Chambery, Grenoble, Lyon and Geneva were shut at one point? Chambery, Grenoble and Lyon seemed shut nearly all weekend? The TO's could deal with the snow, it was the airports that couldn't?
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=60418#1436209
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| Alexandra wrote: |
| what sort of shower of poo-poo runs winter holidays and then can't deal with snow? Absolutely bloody ludicrous. |
In fairness to Ski Beat, staffing issues aside, that weekend was a complete disaster for every TO. We know others who travelled home that weekend with other TO's and it was mayhem everywhere. Chambery, Grenoble, Lyon and Geneva were shut at one point? Chambery, Grenoble and Lyon seemed shut nearly all weekend? The TO's could deal with the snow, it was the airports that couldn't?
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=60418#1436209 |
Indeed. In such unusual conditions contingency plans will indeed swing into action - everyone's, all at the same time. Resources will quickly become limited and there will be people who lose out badly as a result.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The thing that is unforgiveable is the coach driver apparently driving too many hours and being at risk of falling asleep assuming that is true. Imainge if that coach had had an accident. Some one is at fault for allowing a driver to be on his own driving for more than the correct number of hours. Some one should be investigating this incident as it doesn't sound legal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
snowymum, yes that was very bad.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| Alexandra wrote: |
| what sort of shower of poo-poo runs winter holidays and then can't deal with snow? Absolutely bloody ludicrous. |
In fairness to Ski Beat, staffing issues aside, that weekend was a complete disaster for every TO. We know others who travelled home that weekend with other TO's and it was mayhem everywhere. Chambery, Grenoble, Lyon and Geneva were shut at one point? Chambery, Grenoble and Lyon seemed shut nearly all weekend? The TO's could deal with the snow, it was the airports that couldn't?
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=60418#1436209 |
True but Ski Beat are a large enough TO to have a full time logistics person...
What I think is poor is the response from Ski Beat to the issue, to the customers in resort and too this thread. As mentioned previously by me, the senior managers on site could have got round all their resorts over a couple of evenings, met all the guests affected and then where necessary (e.g. those on the bus) been offered a goodwill payment there and then. Clearly the issue with the bus driver is serious, but if the information on the road conditions was poor then drivers could set off expecting to be 'there and back' within the allotted hours and then fail to make it due to weather.
I'm disappointed that Ski Beat haven't commented officially on this thread - if they'd nipped it in the bud last week then they it could have been done and dusted without all this farcical posturing about legal action and irrelevant personal comments about the OP. We saw with the Chamexpress thread that provided a response is reasonable and well argued then it's possible to turn around an adverse thread. They've gone down somewhat as a company in my estimations.
Good job this didn't happen on Feb 13th...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| PJSki wrote: |
PJSki
Location: Brooklyn NYC
Sun 24 Jan, 10
08:36 |
This character, who's appeared in various guises on this forum over the years, would have us believe that he's posting from Brooklyn in New York City at 3.36am.
And, of course, we should believe this.
This is, after all, the city that never sleeps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Ernst Goldsmith, I'm now back in the UK, so I should change that. Thanks for pointing it out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
How's the jet lag?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Ernst Goldsmith wrote: |
| How's the jet lag? |
There wasn't any. Five hours isn't that much of an issue.
Have you reconciled your complete rejection of nuclear power with your use of nuclear powered trains yet?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
PJSki, you are Members Only and I claim my £5.
Alternatively, you are not Members Only and I pay you £5. Let's meet!
--------
Note: Members Only is a false name
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 26-01-10 21:58; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| PJSki wrote: |
Have you reconciled your complete rejection of nuclear power with your use of nuclear powered trains yet? |
PJSki, you are Mark Ogilvie and I claim my £5.
Alternatively, you are not Mark Ogilvie and I pay you £5. Let's meet!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Ernst Goldsmith, can I have £5 too, since you are handing fivers out...
Alternatively can we keep this on topic, and can EG and PJ get a room?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
bertie bassett,
| Quote: |
| What I think is poor is the response from Ski Beat to the issue, to the customers in resort and too this thread. |
Agreed with regard to the initial response, as reported, in resort. But have they been active in this thread? In my experience companies don't get involved in making official statements or settling grievances on chat forums.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
In that case you are somewhat out of date.
Sockpuppets International deploys troubleshooting typists around the globe to deal with these very issues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I wondered if I could offer a slightly different perspective on this. Many, many years ago I worked for Ski Beat (SB) as a Resort Manager (RM). However, I no longer work for them and am not associated with them in any way, shape or form. However, as a former RM, then maybe, just maybe I might be able to able to provide a bit of background info. Things have almost certainly changed a lot since I did the job, but my experience was as follows:
- The RM job is, without doubt, the worst job in resort. You get it in the neck from all angles, 24/7. From senior management complaining that your chalets aren't hitting their budget targets; from guests complaining that their chalet hosts aren't up to scratch; from ESF complaining that guests haven't pitched up for the lessons; from suppliers wanting to deliver a season's worth of logs on the staff day off and so on. Sometimes, you just can't escape it. You can do whatever you can to monitor, control, inspect, manage - but at the end of the day, if a chalet host decides they can't be bothered to do their job (say) then the first you hear about it is when the customer is (often understandably) on the warpath.
- That's why SB likes Resort Managers to eat with guests, so they can pick up on any feedback and do something about it while the guest is in resort. That's why RMs are supposed to have a daily "office hour" so that guests can drop by and chew the fat, air grievances, whatever. I did the job for two seasons and I think you can count on one hand the number of guests that took advantage of this facility. I tried using different venues - cafes, bars, hotels etc but still I had minimal/no take-up. Ditto for the other RMs in other resorts, so it wasn't just me.
- That's why in addition to eating in a different chalet each night, RM's are supposed to drop by a couple of other chalets before dinner to check on their guests. I certainly did this, and I suspect the vast majority of SB's RMs did/do it, too.
- Yet despite all of that, you still get some customers who will swear blind they never saw you all week and if they had, they would have told you that the toilet in their room was broken or that ski lessons were terrible, or whatever. Invariably, in the telling of their side of events on a guest questionnaire, certain details get missed out and when these are included, things look a lot less clear cut. Such as guests complaining that the ski-bus never arrived, when the reality is that they were in bed until midday sleeping off a stinking hangover (no word of a lie). Or that the skis weren't very good, when the previous day, that same guest had been seen walking across a concrete road (ouch!) without being bothered to take their skis off (also a real example).
- Then there is the reality that there is often nothing, but nothing, you as an RM can do to change things. The RM doesn't book the transfer coach, that is Head Office's job. But if the driver decides he's done enough for one day and drives off home without waiting for the delayed flight or his guests, then it's the RM that gets it in the neck - not the driver of the firm he works for. Yes, this does happen - especially in France where workers' rights often outweigh any form of customer service ethic. The converse also happens - drivers working too many hours, as in Pandora's case. It is not the RM's fault, but (s)he gets it right in the neck each time, and there's only so much of this anybody can take in one go. Besides, when I did the job, the only tools I had were a PAYG mobile (that you were told off if you used up your season's credit on), a fax machine and a land line 'phone in your office. The internet was at the dial-up stage at this point, and so perhaps RM's also have broadband internet access now, I don't know.
- Yes, I know - that is the very nature of the RM's job. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Quite right, too. Yes, guests have to turn to the RM when things go wrong, and often they are angry, their kids are tired and hungry and it is their holiday, after all. I accept all of this and I know what I would do, if the boot were on the other foot. But after calming down, I would perhaps reflect on the fact that it isn't the RM's fault that flights were cancelled, that the coaches were late, that the beds weren't comfortable and so on. RMs and even the Head Office can't magic up extra coaches on demand - more often than not, they're already booked out to another operator, who is also frantically trying to sort things out behind the scenes, too.
- I've perhaps misread Pandora's post, but when she says that she arrived at 3:30 am and went to bed "having failed to get a time that the resort manager will be round to hear our complaints in the morning", I lose a lot of sympathy for her. You're on holiday for goodness sake! If she'd said that she had failed to get a time for the RM to come round and sort out lift passes, ski hire etc, then I could understand her grievance - the complaints can wait until the evening, when everybody has had chance to calm down a bit. But it appears that complaining is the primary objective, where it should be about getting the kids to ski school and the adults out on the slope and all having a bit of fun. Did it occur to Pandora that perhaps the RM himself had been up until that time, too, and how would she feel if presented by a group of 10 adults, baying for blood? Maybe he was up even later, sorting out lift passes as well as getting everybody in their chalets? Maybe he was on a different coach and had hot footed it across from a nearby resort having been forced to spend the night on a sofa elsewhere? I don't know whether this is the case or not, but I do know that facing 10 demanding guests en masse and trying to defend the indefensible when none of this is your fault, and when you do not have the authority to offer any form of compensation, is enough to try the patience of a saint, let alone a RM.
- Yes, the in resort RM should not have shouted at Pandora's party - but why did he? Are we absolutely certain that nobody shouted at him first? Are we absolutely certain that this wasn't a case of 10 understandably angry guests ganging up and winding each other up in their bid to get the next point across - each with a louder voice than the one before? Really? It does happen, you know, but it never appears in the story whenever people write in to complain or write to blogs like this.
- I may be wrong, but is also appears that Pandora didn't contact SB before posting her complaint on this forum. Once again, that's wrong. At least give SB the chance to put things right before slagging them off to all and sundry. Having worked for the company, I know some of the directors of the company, and am sure they will be mortified to see what Pandora has written. SB is not a huge, sprawling, mega company run by nameless androids, it's a mid-sized operator run by people with a passion for skiing, who have turned this passion into a business. It's not a perfect company to work for - but I have worked for much worse companies over the years...
- On a related note, I only hope the next time that one of her own flights is late, Pandora has the courtesy to give her full name and staff number over the tannoy to all her passengers, so that they can name and shame her on chat rooms such as this - regardless of whether the delay was her fault or not. A bit harsh, you might say - but she has done exactly that to the SB RM. To not do so would be hypocritical in the extreme.
- Yes, things went wrong and it sounds as if they could have been much better handled. This story also raises questions for SB about their contingency planning. But isn't it a bit strange that of the 3 RMs that her group encountered, two were supposed to have shouted at the group and one was aloof and supposedly ran off to sulk? I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that all of these RMs were not provoked to at least some degree. I've dealt with all manner of guests - the vast, vast majority of whom are wonderful and a real delight to meet and ski with - others of whom are a complete and utter nightmare and you can't win for trying to please them. I think there's more to Pandora's story than we will ever know - and I think she is wrong to slate SB on a site such as this before contacting them and very wrong indeed to slate the RM by name. I look forward to her redressing this with a public apology for all her late flights in the months and years to come.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
So do sanglier and the fatcontroller think it is acceptable for passengers lives to be endangered by a chap driving the bus who can hardly keep awake and is at some point driving while on his mobile phone? If operators aren't large enough to have safe contingency plans for airport closures maybe they would be better off offering accommodation only holidays.
The passengers in question must have been exhausted after their journey and Ski Beat should have been ready to give them a warm welcome on arrival. It sounds as though the Ski Beat staff were unable to emphathise with the weary travellers and just regarded them as a nuisance. I wouldn't have mentioned the staff by name though. i wonder if any of the ski beat staff were parents themselves and had a clue how it would feel if people had been travelling for 36 hours with young children. If the party arrived at 3am they could have made sure they were offered food and drink and suggested holding a meeting that evening so that grievances could be aired and listened to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Ernst Goldsmith wrote: |
In that case you are somewhat out of date.
Sockpuppets International deploys troubleshooting typists around the globe to deal with these very issues. |
Well then, you go and find me all these official posts made by UK winter TO's on independent chat forums in response to detailed complaints like this one. If I'm out of date and this kind of thing is happening regularly, you'll be able to post links to loads of examples.
But of course you won't do that. You'll just complain about anonymous abuse as you crawl back under your stone.
Oh, and I forgot, anyone displaying the smallest amount of sympathy for the RM is a sockpuppet for SB. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
), well said 
