 Poster: A snowHead
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On the subject of bending ze knees, they'd cordoned off a race area for super G training for the French and Italian speed teams at Tignes today. Deneriaz was there, still trying to recover form after his knee op last season following his crash in January training for the Chamonix downhill (torn ligaments). Talking to Stéphane Sorrel, the French men's WC downhill team trainer - he used to train the Les Arcs team and lives in Bourg - he said that it was very much a day by day thing... there are days when it feels fine, there are days when he's in pain and just can't ski flat out.
Quite a number of top skiers have suffered torn/ruptured ACLs this summer in training. Not a few leisure skiers have suffered this injury as well, and have mentioned it here.
My daughter's ski study director has recently been impressing on the kids - those who do a certain amount of gym work/weight training in particular - the need to do specific exercises to reinforce the muscles supporting the knee ligaments, rather than over-emphasising work - without getting too technical - on building muscle at the front of the leg. I know there's a lot of blame placed on poor levels of fitness as a cause of injuries, but I wonder if haphazard, sometimes last minute training might not do more harm than good in some cases, particularly among leisure skiers.
My question to the experts would be whether the more vulnerable areas - such as the knees - shouldn't be given special attention in a training regime before setting off on that ski break.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'd certainly not call myself an expert in this field. I used to go to the International Symposium on Safety in Skiing, which happens every 4 years and convenes all the leading scientists and other researchers worldwide. Knee injuries have been their pre-occupation for 20 years or more.
One of the pioneer journalists on this subject, who's worked with researchers on a very long-term study of ski injury trends in Vermont, is Carl Ettlinger. This is some stuff that he's written on knee injuries for his site, which could use some illustration:
http://www.vermontskisafety.com/faq_skiers/faq_skiers_tips.html
Essentially he concentrates on ways of falling to avoid ACL injuries and has a video on the subject. The particular threat to the ACL is reckoned to come from a backward fall, where the lower leg's backward motion is blocked by the rear support of the boot. As the upper body mass continues backwards it pulls on the femur (upper leg bone), which then pulls away from the lower leg bone that's been blocked by the boot. Some twist of the upper body in that process, which is typical, can give a nasty wrench to the ACL. The idea is to avoid that type of falling action.
Vermont Ski Safety is Carl Ettlinger's enterprise. He's also a leading expert on ski bindings, and did the test reports on them for the US magazine 'Skiing' over many years.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 25-10-05 16:08; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| PG wrote: |
| My question to the experts would be whether the more vulnerable areas - such as the knees - shouldn't be given special attention in a training regime before setting off on that ski break. |
This rather assumes that people do any training at all!
A couple of observations from someone who has pretty much recovered from an ACL reconstruction:
1. In articles on pre-season training etc, there is a big emphasis on building up the quads - often the need to do balancing work on the hamstrings and other muscle groups is overlooked
2. I understand that it really doesn't take much force to snap an ACL if it is applied in the right direction. This was certainly borne out by my own injury. To a large extent, if your number's up, there's not too much you can do about it.
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PG, I think I know what you're saying, which is, is badly targeted training worse than no training at all in preventing ACL injury? I have to say that I'm not sure of the answer for that one.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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One thing's for sure: ACL ruptures have created a veritable industry for surgeons. My recollection of the stats is that the rise in frequency since plastic boots became the norm is over 200% on a given number of skiing days.
A French knee surgeon gave a paper about 20 years ago at one of the symposiums mentioned above and said he'd done 3000 ski knee ops. At that time some surgeons were using synthetic replacement ligaments (I think Goretex were involved at one time) but I believe it is nearly always done nowadays by transplanting ligament tissue from the thigh area to make a substitute. It seems to be a very successful operation now, whereas I gather the synthetic ligaments had a limited life.
Don't take any of the above as gospel - it's based on memory only.
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Not an expert on this stuff but about 10 years ago I was suffering from knee pain Id had surgery to remove a lump of hard tissue from under the knee cap when I was 14. The diagnosis was that the pain was caused by a muscular inbalance around the knee joint which was causing the joint to function incorrectly. The solution was a 3 month course of physio which worked. I now use similar exercises as part of my ski fitness regime and haven't had a problem since.
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The one thing that is important to me above all else - and this dates back to my football days - is to get my legs in shape.
If you are a recreational skier who skis in fits and starts, ie, never gets entirely ski fit as by the time they do, it is time to come home again, you must have strong muscles around the knees.
When I first started training I complained of pain in the knees even though I was quite fit at the time. The physio told me off and said what did I expect with legs like those. Incidently I always had good defintion there. So I followed his advice which were knees lifts and the pain in the ligaments disappeared. I had to counter train to bring the hamstrings upto speed with the quads. I follow this regime now for skiing and I wouldn't go skiing without doing so
It should be easy to get qualified gym instructor to complile a program for leg strengthening.
Incidently, they used to use the achilles tendon from donors for top class sports people who needed a knee recon' as it was the strongest ligament available. I don't know if this is still the case but I can think of one athelete who had this done
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| JT wrote: |
| Incidently, they used to use the achilles tendon from donors for top class sports people who needed a knee recon' as it was the strongest ligament available. I don't know if this is still the case but I can think of one athelete who had this done |
are you sure about that? i mean, don't you need your achilles tendon?
i think these days they mostly use the patellar tendon or a hamstring tendon. i had the latter and can feel the gap in the hamstring area still. in fact, the hamstrings gave me almost as much grief immediately post op as the knee itself
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
At that time some surgeons were using synthetic replacement ligaments (I think Goretex were involved at one time) but I believe it is nearly always done nowadays by transplanting ligament tissue from the thigh area to make a substitute
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David Goldsmith, It was Carbon Fibre, very painful, leaves nasty scarring, lumps, limited movement, arthritis, break up of the fibre etc, etc, etc.
Had ACL & MCL done in 1981, rugby not snow, was out for 18 months but got 12 years of rugby, and 10 weeks on snow out of it so far. it isnt great but was the best option at the time.
EDIT: There was never any question as to what recovery excerscise to do: When you get bored of strengthening the quads, go to work on the hamstrings. But no deep of heavy squats as they can overload the joint.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 25-10-05 17:35; edited 1 time in total
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PG noted the importance of
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specific exercises to reinforce the muscles supporting the knee ligaments
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which are the best exercises to do - and the simplest, to avoid the risk of doing them wrong? And how best to strengthen the hamstrings to avoid over-emphasis on the quads. Is cycling good? And if so, is it best to use highest gear possible to make each push harder, or do more revolutions in a lower gear?
I read the link from David Goldsmith with interest. Mostly made sense to me, but what, in this context does it mean to say that hips should not be "below the knees"? Does it mean hips should be "on top" of the knees rather than behind - something I would understand and aspire to, if not always achieve? To me, hips "below the knees" sounds like a rather extreme position, sort of thing that mogul skiers do, but not old ladies, unless they have already gone past the point of no return.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As I said above, one picture would have substituted for many words in that text. Ironically, when Carl Ettlinger first wrote about the ACL crisis in 1986 for 'Skiing' magazine, his article was illustrated with some good diagrams!
I'll try and dig out some other literature he did, and answer your question.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Hywel wrote: |
| My wife's ACL was reconstructed from hamstring tissue. She'd popped it on an innocuous and very low speed fall, |
I've heard of plenty of knees going during low speed falls. Could it be that bindings tend to be set for higher speeds/forces & therefore do not release as early at low speed?
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You know it makes sense.
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Good questions, spyderjon. I have had knee problems in the past and though they survive, nowadays, I try to avoid too many falls and generally ski conservatively, and within my ability (I fall over a lot on a snowboard, but if both feet are in the bindings, it's other places which get hurt, not knees). I therefore always have bindings set below whatever setting is supposedly "right" for me (if hiring, I under-estimate my weight and ski ability to make sure). When I bought new skis from S & R last year there was a lot of headshaking from the technician but I was fine. Just a boring skier, I guess. They very rarely release, and I don't ski the kind of stuff where losing a ski is a disaster. But I have skied with beginners who have had painful slow speed falls, on hired skis, and not had them release - in my experience ski hire shops still far too often put people on too long skis, with bindings set too high. The occasional frustrating wallow round in powder, locating then putting ski back on, is well worth it to avoid further knee injuries.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Loose skis on the slope present a danger to other slope users, if you want to back off the DIN setting you should remember this.
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Poster: A snowHead
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ise, I would imagine that a loose ski with boot and lower leg still attached would pose an even greater threat as the brakes would be off.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Frosty the Snowman, I've never been hit by a "loose ski with boot and lower leg still attached" but I have been hit by a ski twice and narrowly missed one to the head in Gd Massif this year.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| ise, a loose ski with boot and lower leg still attached would pose an even greater threat as the brakes would be off. |
ouch, would 'loose' in this context mean that the boot and lower leg are attached to the ski but to nothing else???
Fortunately, not a common occurrence on the slopes 
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ise, and having the din setting too low is just as likely to lead to an injury (as a result of a pre-release) as having it too high IMO
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Talking of DIN settings; I have just bought a new pair of ski's with Marker IBX 12.0 bindings. The DIN range is 3 to 12. Marker strongly advise against a DIN setting of greater than 10.
I weigh 13.9st, am 6ft and ski with a sporty approach but amd by no means an expert. I also spend most of my time blasting on piste. The ski technician recommended that my DIN be set at 8. Does that sound about right?
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pam w,
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(if hiring, I under-estimate my weight and ski ability to make sure).
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I may be paranoid - but what would an insurance company think of this ?
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| Arno wrote: |
| ise, and having the din setting too low is just as likely to lead to an injury (as a result of a pre-release) as having it too high IMO |
I think you're right, there's clearly some tolerance in the range of course though. I just have a bit of issue with people winding the settings down without considering what impact it might have on others.
Obviously, what's going to happen now is my ski will fly off tomorrow and hit Easiski in the head 
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The binding settig charts have a 'skier type' - which (roughly) corresponds to how fast you want to ski. Bindings set to a higher setting will not release as easily at slower speeds.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Would a DIN setting of 8 possibly too high?
Weight: 88kg
Height: 6ft
Boot size: UK 10
Skier: sporty
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Hornster, I'll check for you next time I'm at the centre. Seems about right. Need to know your age at least approx...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ski, i'm 29.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'd agree with Kramer, bad training is worse than none.
PG I'm aware of need for care when training kids and teenagers at my rowing club, and presume similar training concerns relate to ski racing kids. What "specific exercises" are your daughter and her racing friends expected to do? Are they games? Or set excercies in the traditional sense? And if so how different to what most non-racing adult rec skiers would expect to do if left to roam free in a gym?
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Hornster, 8 is certainly in the range. i have similar size/weight but slightly smaller feet and i ski on DIN of about 9. i've done quite a bit more skiing than you though
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You know it makes sense.
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Manda, balance between the likes of quad and hamstring exercises when weight training was the message. A good mix of 'games' tends not to favour any muscle group at the expense of another, so barring accidents the balance is already there. At school the kids do wrestling, rugby, canoeing, swimming, cycling, climbing, gymnastics etc in the summer/autumn terms, but the older age groups - say 14/15 years up, when weight training becomes an important part of the regime - are increasingly vulnerable to injury, being bigger, heavier, faster....
I was indeed thinking of the dangers of badly targeted weight training as per Kramer's post - ie last minute frantic attempts to get fit via a few 'favourite' exercises in a poorly supervised gym, or at home.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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PG, I have just returned from my local gym, where I have now been provided a programme in a Kinesis exercise suite. Very interesting stuff, the weights work is done barefoot, occasionally on balance/wobble boards and there is zero stability provided by the equipment as it's all cables with gimbals.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| PG wrote: |
On the subject of bending ze knees, they'd cordoned off a race area for super G training for the French and Italian speed teams at Tignes today. Deneriaz was there, still trying to recover form after his knee op last season following his crash in January training for the Chamonix downhill (torn ligaments). Talking to Stéphane Sorrel, the French men's WC downhill team trainer - he used to train the Les Arcs team and lives in Bourg - he said that it was very much a day by day thing... there are days when it feels fine, there are days when he's in pain and just can't ski flat out.
Quite a number of top skiers have suffered torn/ruptured ACLs this summer in training. Not a few leisure skiers have suffered this injury as well, and have mentioned it here.
My daughter's ski study director has recently been impressing on the kids - those who do a certain amount of gym work/weight training in particular - the need to do specific exercises to reinforce the muscles supporting the knee ligaments, rather than over-emphasising work - without getting too technical - on building muscle at the front of the leg. I know there's a lot of blame placed on poor levels of fitness as a cause of injuries, but I wonder if haphazard, sometimes last minute training might not do more harm than good in some cases, particularly among leisure skiers.
My question to the experts would be whether the more vulnerable areas - such as the knees - shouldn't be given special attention in a training regime before setting off on that ski break. |
Kids boots are often, over-soft. This is due to overexpectation of the parent that does the buying and talking. The best thing to do, is leave your kid with; the trainer, credit card and the child. Go and have a beer and they, will work it out. Let them grow out the boots, that is the cost.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
The binding settig charts have a 'skier type' - which (roughly) corresponds to how fast you want to ski. Bindings set to a higher setting will not release as easily at slower speeds.
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Surely this is the key? People who ski moderate terrain at moderate speeds need to have their bindings set lower, particularly if they have vulnerable knees. Posts above attest to bad injuries in slow-speed falls. My skis don't pre-release (touch wood) and have never (touch wood) shot down a slope and put anyone at risk. When they come off it's generally when I venture incompetently off (but not far from) the piste, in powder and they go nowhere. Yes, I am an unadventurous but moderately competent piste skier, and I ski most of the season and want to go on doing so until I am an even riper old age than I am already. I ski a lot slower than many Snowheads, I'm sure, but often faster than quite a lot of those around me. Many of them, I would wager, are on much higher binding settings than is good for them - there's a lot of bravado around in ski shops and not much emphasis, in busy resort shops on a Friday night, with language limitations all round, on "skier type".
But loose skies are clearly a danger. Boarders are expected to use a leash. Granted there is a "no brakes" problem, but maybe skiers should wear leashes too. Would increase our risk of injury from our own errant skis, but protect others?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, Ski shops should be using the same chart, and should ask you weight, age, skier, shoe size type etc. If they don't - go somewhere else. There is no excuse (for the shop) for not doing this.
I have some experience with leaches - my tele skis have them ! They are (IMHO) much less satisfactory than brakes - firstly I have two break - one of which left me the releasable part of my binding on my foot - and my ski heading off into the trees - never found it. As the ski remains near you it becomes a danger.
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It's a two edged sword with me... I spend quite a lot of time in the park, and find that if my DIN is below 7 then it will often release when i land at unsual angles (particularly switch). However, i tightened them up to just below 8, and low and behold, coming back home on an over-crowded slushy blue run, i wasn't really concentrating, had to take rather evasive action to a crash in front of me, and ended up twisting my knee. Inflamed alterior ligament or something.
Serves me right for not paying attention, but just goes to emphasise that the faster (and higher?!) you go, the more need to tighten your DINS but to pay extra special attention when your skiing home relatively slowly.
How hard would it be to design a binding with an easy and hard setting, much like a "ski" and "walk" switch on a boot?
Keen to know of specific exercises i can do to strengthen all the muscles round my knee - if anyone has any ideas?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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magicrichard,
When I was recovering from my ACL reconstruction a few years ago I was given the following exercises to do which really worked well:
Thighs (quads):
- Leg extensions (set the tension low enough so that you can do at least 15 repetitions each set – do at least 3 sets)
Hamstrings:
- Leg curls (again, set the tension low enough so that you can do at least 15 repetitions each set – do at least 3 sets)
Calves:
- Standing calf raises (15 repetitions – 3 sets)
At home you should also do the following:
- Stand in the door frame and do weightless squats BUT be sure to support your weight if need be by pushing against the door frome with your arms.
- Put your back against the wall/door frame, put your feet shoulder width apart and just in front of you, slide your bum down the wall/frame until your thighs are 90 degrees to your calves and hold that position for as long as you can. Repeat for 3 sets.
- Walking and especially double stepping up stairs is also very good for the larger muscle groups.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Hornster wrote: |
[b]magicrichard,
When I was recovering from my ACL reconstruction a few years ago I was given the following exercises to do which really worked well:
Thighs (quads):
- Leg extensions (set the tension low enough so that you can do at least 15 repetitions each set – do at least 3 sets)
Hamstrings:
- Leg curls (again, set the tension low enough so that you can do at least 15 repetitions each set – do at least 3 sets)
Calves:
- Standing calf raises (15 repetitions – 3 sets)
At home you should also do the following:
- Stand in the door frame and do weightless squats BUT be sure to support your weight if need be by pushing against the door frome with your arms.
- Put your back against the wall/door frame, put your feet shoulder width apart and just in front of you, slide your bum down the wall/frame until your thighs are 90 degrees to your calves and hold that position for as long as you can. Repeat for 3 sets.
- Walking and especially double stepping up stairs is also very good for the larger muscle groups. |
[/b]
This are important excersises for anyone that skis should do. Especially thos whom ski 1-2weeks a year or maybe not every year.
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This is quite a good article with some ideas for pre-skiing conditioning. Lots of stuff involving the swiss ball so good for balance and stability as well as strength
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magicrichard, I forgot one very important thing and that is to make sure that you stretch your leg muscles before and after exercising. Concentrate on stretching the ligaments and tends in and around your knee. The more flexible your ligaments, tends and muscles are, the less likely they will be to pull/tear or even snap like mine did!!
I went through absolute agony for the first 3-6 months after my reconstruction trying to gain full movent back in my knee and the surrounding muscles, but am very glad that I did stick to it because I know of some people that can't take it or choose not to stick with the rehabilitation regime and now they battle to get the full range of movement in their knee without a lot of pain.
At the end of the day skiing puts incredible stresses on the knee joint (amoungst other joints) and is therefore very vulnerable to injury unless the muscles, tendons and ligaments are kept strong and flexible. It is for these reasons why I believe that a lot of people who are fairly new to skiing suffer injuries and sometimes injuries that prevent them from skiing, and possibly even other activities, again.
PS: my ACL snapped as a result of a mountaineering accident, not skiing, but the stresses are very much the same and the consequences equally as serious.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hornster, how is the routine you lay out anyhow specific to knees? The exercises means the main muscle, e.g. the thighs, get a work out, which will incidentally "stress" the knee and therefore give it "a bit of" a work out.
While the exercises are useful in building leg muscle strength, where's the knee-specifity of it?
Also I have grave doubts about using forms of exercises that are counter-productive to that required for the sport - i.e. the toilet position (back against wall, knees at 90degrees) - why encourage the muscles to adopt strength in, and memory of, a counter-productive skiing position??? Must surely be counter-productive to good skiing?
For skiing-specific leg exercises, I tend to prefer those of the kind in Arno's link (thanks for that, Arno, BTW). The core exercises are very good for skiing too.
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Manda, Feel free to adopt any form of exercise you want. I didn't say that you had to do mine, just that it worked extremely well for me during rehabilitation and they still do and considering the amount of stress I put on my knees carrying heavy loads on my back when mountaineering to altitudes above 7000m as well as skiing, I would say that they must work.
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FAQ
