 Poster: A snowHead
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Yadda, yadda, yadda, we've all done it, not steep enough to slide, just crossing or ducking next to pistes is fine.
Italian guy buried 1m deep right next to a piste on the Stubai Glacier. Dug out unconscious after 12 minutes by his friends and thankfully regained consciousness.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.512992252073817.123121.158273977545648&type=1
It's the sort of terrain feature a lot of us have and will shoot up to get a few fresh turns whilst cruising down pistes without really thinking too much about it despite it being steep. Large crown as well.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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meh, Thanks for posting. Great reminder to always watch, and read, the terrain around you, if you are nipping off piste. I always wear a transceiver, even on piste, for these exact types of situations.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Don't know the ins and outs of the story here - doubt it was through a 'traditional' avalanche burial, most likely a deep snow fall or tree well.
Question is, in this scenario, how much use would a transceiver be? If you were in 30-40 metres of the victim, then yes, sure, but the likelyhood in this example is a group duck off to the side and tail-end charlie (or someone separating off from the group) tree-wells and get stuck. The group reforms and finds one man down, but without an effective startpoint for the search, you're stuck searching hundreds of metres of terrain.
As boofit suggests, watch your friends, read the terrain and stay aware of whats going on around you. Best plan for this is to buddy up and stick close, always be aware where your buddy is and CHECK they're there regularly, and never go alone.
Safe behaviour is always more important than ave beacons IMHO.
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I doubt there are many tree wells to fall into on the Stubai glacier.
The pics show a pretty 'traditional' avalanche as far as I can make out...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Not many years ago a guy died under the Suisses chair in Courch when he was caught in a terrain trap. That slope is so well used that it often has huge great moguls on it.
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Richard_Sideways, err, it was a deep slab (triggered on a weak layer 1m deep sliding on the icey layer underneath it) so very much a traditional avalanche, victim was buried 1m deep.
On the other point yes, doing the right thing should always be the main aim rather than relying on being saved after the fact.
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I stand corrected - can't access FB from behind office firewall, so haven't seen the pictures. Assumed it wasn't slide related from first line of OP.
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around 30 degrees, convex at the top and a terrain trap at the bottom.. lots of pointers to it being a likely candidate for a slide, but I suppose the extreme shortness of the slope and proximity to the piste would lull many into a false sense of security.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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feef, according to the photos the slope is nearer to 40 degrees.
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| meh wrote: |
| feef, according to the photos the slope is nearer to 40 degrees. |
I just had a quick look at them, and thought it over 30 but could't be sure by how much. At 40, the risk is even greater
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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meh, good post, there are also some pretty nasty looking rocks in that slide as well.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| feef wrote: |
| I suppose the extreme shortness of the slope and proximity to the piste would lull many into a false sense of security. |
I will be honest and say that this is exactly what would catch me out. For years I have been skiing just of the sides of the piste. Always within sight of the piste but more often than not on my own. Stupid I know but at the time I wouldn't give it a second thought. Thankfully I had a little bit of an eye opener with scarpa on the EOSB last year and although it didn't sink in straight away, after some reflection I realise that it is about time that I buck my ideas up.
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meh, thanks for posting, very salutary indeed.
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You know it makes sense.
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| feef wrote: |
| around 30 degrees, convex at the top and a terrain trap at the bottom.. |
I've made a guess at what 'terrain trap' means, but I can't be sure. Is this a 'proper' term for something? What does it mean?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mr Piehole,
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| "Terrain traps are any terrain feature that increases the consequences of getting caught in an avalanche. For example, depressions and abrupt transitions increase the odds of a deep burial, cliffs and trees increase the odds of traumatic injuries, and gullies and canyons reduce the chances of escape. " |
http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/training/online-course/terrain/terrain-traps
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Poster: A snowHead
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Mr Piehole, I think I've made the same guess as you. I assume it means when the terrain goes into a bowl of whatever depth which you'd have to climb out of.
I really don't tend to venture even slightly off piste for insurance reasons, and threads like this further reinforce why.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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livetoski, snap! Off-topic, but how's the son and heir?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ah OK, thanks livetoski, I wasn't far off. It was more about avalanche debris piling up in it though, didn't think of that.
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Cheers all. I duck 'just' off piste like that all the time (although possibly not on quite such steep terrain, and I would always think twice on a glacier)...
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Pedantica, fingers crossed that his hyper mobile knees have saved him, Physio thinks its just a strain rather than anything else to serious
Back on thread some of these "traps can be huge" the one we are taking about resulted in a 1 meter burial, others I have read about end up 8 to 10 meters down 
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livetoski, yer 1m is actually about average for a burial depth of avalanches that result in complete burial in the Alps. IIRC it's about half a meter deeper in North America. Either way it's not inconsequential as a more rolling transition might have left him on the surface. Looking at the photos it looks like this was the next day and the debris have been cleared/bashed from the edge, so it's not an accurate reflection of what it looked like after the slide.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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livetoski, good news! 
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the snow profile chart as hot linked from the FB page. According to the translation the weak layer was at the 100cm mark. I can't quote make it out but it appears that the 'crystal' is marked square which presumably means faceted ?
I'm like to be able to interpret these chats.
Red line is temp ?
Is the other 'block' graph element 'hardness' in this case ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Could it be that the block part of the graph is pressure required to move the layers? R for Rutschblock, but I'm not sure what the legend in () is.. is it kg or kp? kp could be the coefficient of recrystallisation, as referred to in The stratigraphic complexes of a snowpack
The crystal type icons used in this graph also match those of my linked document, so in this case round particles and solid faceted particles, but I'm not sure what 'Form' and 'Durchm" mean (or if I'm reading them right)
Anyone able to expand further?
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feef, durchm. is an abbreviation of durchmesser which is German for diameter. It's the diameter of the snow crystal in mm.
The hand hardness scale goes from soft to hard; fist, four fingers, finger, pencil, knife and finally ice. The B and M on the scale correspond to the German words for pencil and knife.
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You know it makes sense.
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Couple of remarks on interpreting the chart - weight of a skier typically penetrates about 80cm-1m or so into the snowpack. Anything below that is worth being aware of but isn't going to be of concern most of the time.
What that's showing are two layers, one soft, the other firmer sitting on a layer of facets. The layer closest to the facets is moderately firm - will allow one finger in a glove pushed into it. The top layer above, four fingers in a glove. Looks like nice skiing - not proper powder - probably feeling slabby underfoot. The facets are obviously very fragile and are shallow enough to be stressed by skier passing over them. Not sure what produced those facets. At a guess, I'd say buried surface hoar but I'm really just guessing here.
Temp gradient is nice and shallow, but then we're on a glacier so the ground is going to be somewhere below zero. I'd guess things are stabilising.
Easy in retrospect given someone else had an accident but that is a classic softish slab over a buried weak layer. Confronted with that you'd want to stay below 30 degrees and avoid rollovers (imv - your risk tolerance may be different).
Glad they got the guy out ok. There but for the grace of God etc.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| boofit wrote: |
| meh, Thanks for posting. Great reminder to always watch, and read, the terrain around you, if you are nipping off piste. I always wear a transceiver, even on piste, for these exact types of situations. |
Sorry...I gotta question this!?! You ALWAYS wear a transciever even on piste? I assume therefore that you always make sure that everyone your going out with is wearing one and is trained in its use as well?
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Poster: A snowHead
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eddiethebus, on piste the rescue services will be at your disposal in minutes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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yeah, i know....which is why i question anyone that states they always wear a transciever when riding pistes....
it also ebs close to one of my pet hates here in chamonix, the number of people that buy and ride wearing transcievers without any training or experience in how to actually use the things. There becoming something of a (dangerous) fashion/lifestyle statement here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Elston wrote: |
| feef wrote: |
| I suppose the extreme shortness of the slope and proximity to the piste would lull many into a false sense of security. |
I will be honest and say that this is exactly what would catch me out. |
Ditto 
Makes you think...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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eddiethebus, Timmaah, but surely what boofit meant was that he wears a transceiver in case he decides to go off-piste. In other words, he won't then be on piste, although he might be quite close to one. 
Kruisler, +1 But it's great that so many of these photos and videos are now becoming available. This thread has ensured that, if I do decide to pop down a tiny unpisted bit, I will really try and assess the situation properly first.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| meh wrote: |
feef, durchm. is an abbreviation of durchmesser which is German for diameter. It's the diameter of the snow crystal in mm.
The hand hardness scale goes from soft to hard; fist, four fingers, finger, pencil, knife and finally ice. The B and M on the scale correspond to the German words for pencil and knife. |
I'm familiar with the hardness scale, it was the German that I was lacking 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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eddiethebus,
I only ever go what I would truly consider as off piste with a guide, and obviously transceiver, however regularly go what I would consider 'side of piste'. It's a balance of risk in my opinion, I know it's not safe, however it's safer than going out of site from the piste. I also do assess the terrain obviously, however must confess that I think if I'm being honest that maybe could have been me in the pictures above (hard to say without being there if I would have skied it).
This season I have decided to get a transceiver, and I will probably wear it any time I am venturing to the 'side of the piste', I may or may not be with others, however since I'm in site of the piste if something were to happen piste patrol should be there within 5-10 mins and will certainly do a transceiver search.
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It has been a while since I saw Henry's Avalanche Talk presentation, but this incident reminds me of the fatal accident he used to show which happened in Val d'Isere a few years ago.
It was close to the piste near the Tovier lift if I remember correctly and Henry used it to illustrate how dangerous something just to the side of the piste can be.
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| Quote: |
he wears a transceiver in case he decides to go off-piste. In other words, he won't then be on piste, although he might be quite close to one.
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To tie this cautious view to the incident in question, the photos show that the debris field is really quite sizeable. Especially if nobody had seen the skier being taken, it's a large area to search, and it must surely be helpful for the skier to be wearing a transceiver in those circumstances. So it seems to me that, especially if you're skiing on your own (which I used often to do, less frequently now) and might feel tempted to do a bit of 'off-the-sides' skiing, it's not a bad idea to wear a transceiver, the more so if your mountaincraft is sketchier than it might/should be.
In other words, I'm tending towards SkiG's intention to buy a transceiver soon.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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No bad aimed at the OP or others spreading the word of caution but I think you have to keep a sense perspective here. Most days we ski we see stacks pf people skiing to the side off pistes. If you look at the number of skier runs compared to the number of ava's it will be tiny. To say you should never ski off piste without ava gear or a guide is IMHO way OTT. All this example shows is that very occasionally someone f**ks up. I'd agree that if you have it by default you should wear your ava gear. But for me it's not a given.
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Layne,
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To say you should never ski off piste without ava gear or a guide is IMHO way OTT. All this example shows is that very occasionally someone f**ks up.
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I can't disagree with that either. In the end you have to do what feels right for you. FWIW, I'm still dithering.
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