I hear BASI types talk a lot about "flexing and extending", "creating and absorbing pressure", "pedalling", and getting people to move the body "up and down"
Is training people to make vertical up and down movements a good thing?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret, When I feel like I am skiing well it feels like my body doesn't move up and down, but my legs do (if that makes sense)
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
You can do all the things you suggested without moving up and down vertically in an "old school style"
surely it's not a case of moving up and down, but of extending and compressing?
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The "up & down movement" is a consequence of flexion & extension, it's not moving up & down for the sake of it.
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After all it is free
I do it to compensate for massive ski holiday hangovers. Like camera image stabilization, but in real life.
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I have no idea, but Ultimate Skiing says this: "Up and down movements regulate the total amount of force the snow exerts on us, whereas fore and aft movements control the skis’ behavior in response to that force and help us maintain balance ... To ski with real versatility, you must be able to control independently these two interactions with the snow."
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I like to unweight my skis when doing some turns but not others ... maybe something to do with this
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret, You should change the question in the title to match the question in the post to make it fair
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skimottaret,
I think they just say these things, because they know the words for them.
A Foreign Johny would just say "Ski lake theez & bend zee neez"
And you would just follow him down the hill.
Best just keep your iPod turned up and nod!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
skimottaret, you can flex and extend your legs without your upper body moving up can't you????
Or spend 20 years learning to move the body up to un-weight straight 203cm skis and initiate a turn, then the next 20 unlearning it...............
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
kitenski, not necessarily 20 years ago either - I learned on carvers and that was definitely taught to me - though perhaps as a stage to understand what one needs to do to understand the basic principles of turning the skis using their technology as opposed to pivoting.
One does see new(ish) skiers often being drilled like this by instructors when on resort.
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Mr Piehole,
You mean a sort of DT's in the knees?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
As I recall on my L2 we were told to show flex and extension by this up and down movement.
Strikes me it's one of the easiest ways of seeing whether there's any any extension but it doesn't have to be a vertical movement, it can be a lateral one which I guess is a slightly more advanced move but one I think you see when you watch racers.
Okay I'm never good at explaining this stuff in writing but is the movement (the up) not one that promotes releasing the edge in order to move onto and engage (the down) the other edge in the turn?
Unweighting is a very old term and as I understand it was done on old style skis for different reasons.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
It was originally taken up by early male instructors and coincided with the sudden influx of female clientele.
Okay I'm never good at explaining this stuff in writing but is the movement (the up) not one that promotes releasing the edge in order to move onto and engage (the down) the other edge in the turn?
I think that's basically right and I understood what you meant!
You straighten your outside leg a little and stand a bit taller to flatten the ski and release the edge. But this is a very much more gentle/modest up motion than the old school up unweighting.
"flexing and extending" seems reasonable terminology for the former
"moving the body up and down" seems more of the latter to me?
jedster, on my L2 last 2 weeks they didn't want any 'standing taller' at all, the head shouldn't come up, the lower body can flex, extend etc, but the head shouldn't come up....
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I have had some coaching recently and a common area for me to work on both for bumps and GS skiing was that I had too much vertical movement so it got me thinking... BASI talks a lot about creating and absorbing pressure by flexing and extending but how much pressure does a rec skier really create or subtract? very little in my view.. When performance skiing we want to create as much pressure as possible and reducing pressure in the bottom of the turn by over flexing is a recipe for disaster.
I recon we should be thinking and talking more about using flex and extend to get lateral movements patterned and getting skiers to develop bigger edge angles. Probably the most common flaw I am currently seeing in advanced and expert skiers is overflex at the knee joint...
After all it is free
After all it is free
skimottaret, hands up as a guinea pig for drills to increase lateral movements and bigger edge angles
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skimottaret, My current thinking is that I only need to generate pressure in the first part of the turn, after that there is enough generated by the change in direction and gravity. I usually want to reduce pressure in the final part of the turn to avoid juddering.
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skimottaret, what about bumps and variables. Isn't A&E is important here? Otherwise you would lose ski snow contact.
What about the virtual bump?
I'm of the opinion that you need to be adaptable and the more tools you have in your bag the better.
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kitenski wrote:
skimottaret, hands up as a guinea pig for drills to increase lateral movements and bigger edge angles
+1. Was beginning to get this idea on Monday, would like to pursue it.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Elston,
Quote:
what about bumps and variables
Again, not the whole of you going up and down, but only the legs absorbing the bumps, no? (Compression turns.)
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
roga,
What a brilliant movie! (I wont say video .. I could hear the cogs rolling!)
That's the style, proper skiers in serious bobble hats .. none of these park chavs with their trousers hanging off their backsides!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
We go up in/on the lifts and down on the skis (preferably not bottoms). Skiing. It's all about the up and down...
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
This photo sequence of Ted Ligety and supporting text explain flexion / extension very well and compares it to old school unweighting
Absorbing pressure, maintain ski to snow contact, skiing bumps, etc all require flexion / extension. Not sure old school ever said to move body up and down though that's how I mis-interpreted things for awhile, one of many mistakes that took donkeys to realise and correct. Watch some old school ski vids like Blizzards of ahh to see some straight ski jump turning, those guys must have been so fit.
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"What a brilliant movie! (I wont say video .. I could hear the cogs rolling!) "
+1!
The year Klammer won gold.
I wonder if the Alasdair Ross in the end credits is the same Ali Ross who has the Ski Better App out right now...?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret wrote:
I hear BASI types talk a lot about "flexing and extending", "creating and absorbing pressure", "pedalling", and getting people to move the body "up and down"
Pedantica, yes right but I was replying to these bits in particular, which I find confusing. I just wanted a little bit of clarity. Maybe its because I haven't been taught up unweighting since I was a child, but when I read flex and extend I don't read that as 'up and down' at all, I interpret that as using your legs flex and extend.
Quote:
I recon we should be thinking and talking more about using flex and extend to get lateral movements patterned and getting skiers to develop bigger edge angles.
Surely you don't necessarily always want to have bigger edge angles and more lateral movement? For instance, in bumps you would want to be in a stacked position and be able to rotate the skis.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
waynos, Nice to see the Shred looks like a backseat gaper in one of those single frames - hope for us all
Back to the original question - I'd suspect the real reason is to encourage some sort of dynamism given ther amount of intermediate "skiddy statutes" you see on any given day. I've been noticing that when I get the fear the reason my skiing goes to pot is I stop moving - alternatively if I chuck myself around a bit I can ski techy stuff a lot better.
Flexing and extending on the bathroom scales will give the mechanically minded some clues.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I very rarely use the terms up and down, almost always flex and extend because I try to avoid conveying the impression that the movement is back up the hill. In some situations I will talk about forward and across to convey a particular direction of movement.
If you are trying to get more lateral movement I would much rather start with someone who makes big up and down movements than no movement at all. It's emotionally more challenging to project yourself across your skis as you are throwing yourself down the hill, which instinctively is all wrong. If you are not used to making any movement at the start of the turn trying to create a big lateral movement is going to be almost impossible in my experience. So, work on movement first, then adjust it as skills improve. skimottaret, there's a reason we describe "Up and Over" as a magic drill...
laundryman, This is one of my concerns, It may just be imagery but BASI talk alot about creating pressure through extension and absorbing pressure through flexing at a very early stage in typical skiers progression. At the very slow gradual rate we want skiers to move, this "pressure" build up is almost non existant, if you stand on your scales and move slowly up and down at the rate of an beginner / intermediate would typically turn there is only negligible pressure built up.
As Rob says we prefer to get people moving the joints than being static but I keep thinking that up / down is probably the one movement that we pattern that then needs to be reduced or eliminated later as they begin to ski parallel with bigger edge angles as a few others have alluded to. Other movements in the BASI method of teaching all build on each other and arent "thrown away" and this is bugging me....Once we get people to a decent standard we then focus on pressure control and bigger edge angles through more lateral moves.
cynic, you are correct but on the lesson slope I hear virtually all the instructors (myself included) say to stand tall to create pressure and flex to absorb it and I am questioning the wisdom of that.
Elston, funny enough the last few bumps sessions I have had we did exactly that and were working on getting bigger edge angles early in the turn in bumps
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
skimottaret wrote:
As Rob says we prefer to get people moving the joints than being static but I keep thinking that up / down is probably the one movement that we pattern that then needs to be reduced or eliminated later
That makes it somewhat equivalent to the snowplough then... it's taught as a bit of 'scaffold' to get you going in the right direction, and then later you get told 'stop doing that'. The 'straight to parallel' discussion has been had elsewhere, but I think the consensus was probably that teaching snowplough as a stable easy stopgap technique is kind of an ok thing to do.
The up and down weighting/unweighting thing is also a lesser of two evils, and is an easy thing for a novice to understand compared to the subtleties that they might learn later: it's far better than most people's apparent natural inclination, which is to stand like a statue/Dalek with their elbows and arse pointing out.
After all it is free
After all it is free
skimottaret, the stand tall and flex bit just sounds like a really poor explanation for the mechanical advantage you have as everything straightens out and your ability to reduce forces acting on you by flexing.
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Mr Piehole, I don't think of the snowplough as an artificial stage that is discarded when skiers get good. The only difference between a parallel turn and a snowplough turn is what happens with the inside ski. In a snowplough turn it is held in a plough shape to aid balance at very low speeds, in exactly the same way a stabiliser wheel on a kid's bike is used when they are learning to ride. As soon as the speed of the skier increases to enable them to balance fully on the outside ski the inside ski no longer serves a purpose as a balance aid, so it can be steered at the same time as the outside ski. Nothing is 'thrown away' when you stop snowploughing. In fact, we run clinics which deliberately slow things down for our experienced skiers to they are forced to use a plough while concentrating on the basic movement patterns we make.
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rob@rar, I understand everything you're saying about the snowplough, but I think you kind of get what I'm on about as well. Skiers use it as a crutch for ages and have to talk themselves out of it. I beat myself up all the time still for going into turns in a slight wedge when I know I shouldn't be...
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