 Poster: A snowHead
|
| agw wrote: |
After six straight years skiing in France prior to 2013 I'm afraid the French have lost our custom for now - and the hosting issue is a major factor. |
Doesn't appear to have hit their numbers hugely. Libere Dauphin reporting numbers up this year.
Also, I thought that this thread had highlighted just as many, but different, restrictive practices in Switzerland and Austria?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| emwmarine wrote: |
| agw wrote: |
After six straight years skiing in France prior to 2013 I'm afraid the French have lost our custom for now - and the hosting issue is a major factor. |
Doesn't appear to have hit their numbers hugely. Libere Dauphin reporting numbers up this year.
Also, I thought that this thread had highlighted just as many, but different, restrictive practices in Switzerland and Austria? |
You may well be right - as I said ski hosting wasn't an issue for me until our change in circumstances and I doubt it's that important to the majority of skiers, Brits or not. It just seems so petty and pointless to do what the French authorities are doing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| never summer wrote: |
| "Meeting others" with a help of a ski host is absolutely hilarious argument that I keep coming across on this thread. People can ski but need to have their hands held to talk to other people who stay in their chalet... What precludes people to arrange at dinner to go ski together the next morning and explore the resort is beyond me. |
Erm - it's not about meeting other people who are staying in the *same* chalet? The hosting would normally cover everyone in the resort for that TO, a much bigger population, and one you can hardly expect to meet over dinner.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
a.j., not much different. A TO can't post a meeting place/time and leave the rest for people. Or would they also need a representative to make introductions? It can still be done without anyone actually physically leading you on the slopes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| never summer wrote: |
| a.j., not much different. A TO can't post a meeting place/time and leave the rest for people. Or would they also need a representative to make introductions? It can still be done without anyone actually physically leading you on the slopes. |
OK - we get that you don't think a ski hosting service is worthwhile. Many of us, having used such a service, disagree and in my case it now affects where I spend my precious one week a year skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| never summer wrote: |
| laundryman, My logic is that it's a job of qualified people to take around beginners or even intermediates worried about ice/steepness/traffic and moguls on a particular run. But once you are competent enough not too worry about these things you don't need a host at all. "Meeting others" with a help of a ski host is absolutely hilarious argument that I keep coming across on this thread. People can ski but need to have their hands held to talk to other people who stay in their chalet... What precludes people to arrange at dinner to go ski together the next morning and explore the resort is beyond me. |
The onus on making an argument, hilarious or otherwise, should be on those seeking to prevent adults from doing what they want.
A person of any given level of skill will probably ski by themselves, with mates/family (of varying levels of competence), hosts or instructors at some time or another on a skiing holiday. Just because you ban people, allegedly for their own good, from a part of this spectrum does not mean they will automatically pay for a lesson and does not necessarily mean they will be safer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
agw, That's your choice and your decision doesn't affect anything, you might also find out soon that other countries also have some restrictions and are more willing to enforce them where they were turning a blind eye before. Will it make you stop skiing? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| agw wrote: |
I used to be of the "I can read a piste map, why do I need a ski host?" persuasion. That changed last season when Mrs agw could no longer ski (injuries - there's an old thread about it somewhere) and we weren't going with friends or family that year. We ended up in the Dolomites with Collett's so that she could go off snowshoeing with one group and I could go skiing with another.
Collett's want you to be confident on red runs and their hosts seem pretty good at judging the pace of a group so no-one feels they're holding the others up.
Most days they had two ski itineraries - one group being a bit faster than the other (in the Dolomites "itinerary" is not hyperbole - Sella Ronda, 5 Torri+Hidden Valley, Marmolada etc are respectable distances, especially if you're starting in Badia).
The ski hosts had a little speech they did at the start of each day "We are not qualified guides, we all have a duty of care to each other etc" which seemed fair enough. What the hosts and the advertised itineraries do is provide a focus for the day so that like-minded skiers (or walkers) of broadly similar abilities can get as much as possible out of their holiday. It works for us - we had another great holiday earlier this month.
After six straight years skiing in France prior to 2013 I'm afraid the French have lost our custom for now - and the hosting issue is a major factor. |
Me too - we're off to Italy next week for the first time and we get guiding with Collet's
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
laundryman, It's their problem in this case. But in France it's illegal to take people on a mountain for remuneration unless you are properly qualified to do so. If you don't need a qualified person to guide you then you don't need a TO representative either, toss a coin and let one of you take charge after getting recommendations from the personnel. If you find it more comforting when someone of "official status" or on duty does it, than you do need a qualified person.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
never summer, you should understand the difference between 'need' and 'want' - and perhaps have some sympathy for the point of view that needs and wants are personal. But much as I think you need to, I don't suppose you want to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
laundryman, 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| laundryman wrote: |
| never summer, you should understand the difference between 'need' and 'want' - and perhaps have some sympathy for the point of view that needs and wants are personal. But much as I think you need to, I don't suppose you want to. |
I think I asked the question earlier on this thread if the ski club of great britain organised these sorts of Leading sessions and the answer was that they did.
Couldn't TOs organise temporary membership of the SCGB as part of the holiday package to enable this to happen? A bit like cycle sportive organisers organise a temporary membership of British Cycling to get 3rd party insurance for cyclists on the day.
I would imagine the SCGB would welcome it as it would be a bit of a shop window to join the club long term.
I was thinking of mentioning the SCGB on the literature I send out to prospective rentors of our appartment in VT.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
I hear they're about to have a go at the Dutch, the Belgians and the Scandis as well. Clearly they don't want anyone to ski in France at all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| never summer wrote: |
| laundryman, It's their problem in this case. But in France it's illegal to take people on a mountain for remuneration unless you are properly qualified to do so. If you don't need a qualified person to guide you then you don't need a TO representative either, toss a coin and let one of you take charge after getting recommendations from the personnel. If you find it more comforting when someone of "official status" or on duty does it, than you do need a qualified person. |
False dichotomy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
a.j., I know, but the old system was against the law and the French decided to crack down on it. And you are right about the application - things are changing all the time and there will be room for innovation and new ways for people to enjoy the mountains and meeting others. Somehow lot of people never tried this guiding thing and nevertheless always managed to find people to ski with and not to get lost. So there is a life beyond it:)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Lizzard, The Ski Friends were about in L2A, their guys leading groups are really dodgy!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
laundryman, I understand. Which doesn't mean that I think that all needs and wants are rational and should be catered for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Lizzard wrote: |
I hear they're about to have a go at the Dutch, the Belgians and the Scandis as well. Clearly they don't want anyone to ski in France at all.
|
It would be interesting to see ESF Meribel bookings from UK tour operators for this season. If they are significantly down maybe they will have a rethink about the legal action and action against other operators.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| never summer wrote: |
| laundryman, I understand. Which doesn't mean that I think that all needs and wants are rational and should be catered for. |
That crystallises our difference. I'm very wary of laws preventing things merely on the basis that they are considered irrational by some subset of the population. A system of law based on that principal would produce a pretty dull (and very un-free) society. Incidentally, that's the reason I find Thomas More's Utopia decidedly un-utopian (for want of a better word).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| Lizzard wrote: |
I hear they're about to have a go at the Dutch, the Belgians and the Scandis as well. Clearly they don't want anyone to ski in France at all.
|
It would be interesting to see ESF Meribel bookings from UK tour operators for this season. If they are significantly down maybe they will have a rethink about the legal action and action against other operators. |
Have you heard any whispers of how they are doing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I was told that in L2A the ESF guys are worried that they seem to be far less busy than some of the other ski schools there. Mark Warner for instance have moved all their business there to Evolution 2.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
laundryman, Well, the standards are set by French Sports Ministry. And they are the competent authority in this area, so I am not sure who do you call by a subset of population. In any case if there was such a subset have you ever considered that they might have a more legitimate interest? Because guiding is only a tip of the iceberg but there wider concerns about low wage of imported chalet labour, or is it also ESF fault. By free society do you imply the one where foreign tourists and foreign businesses catering for them dictate which laws should the host country have and which laws it shouldn't? In any case this thing going on against ESF is plain silly. But then again, it won't last for very long, after all they have lowest rates and very good quality of instruction. It's just strange that you see no problem with businesses operating by violating local laws. This is unfair competition last time I checked. Or as long as they are British and dumping the French wage it's fine?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Is anyone still saying that it's ok for beginners to ski with hosts?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
never summer, I mean exactly what I have said, which I think was plainly expressed - but feel free to misconstrue, deflect, and put as many words in my mouth as you wish.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| never summer wrote: |
| laundryman, Well, the standards are set by French Sports Ministry. And they are the competent authority in this area, so I am not sure who do you call by a subset of population. In any case if there was such a subset have you ever considered that they might have a more legitimate interest? Because guiding is only a tip of the iceberg but there wider concerns about low wage of imported chalet labour, or is it also ESF fault. By free society do you imply the one where foreign tourists and foreign businesses catering for them dictate which laws should the host country have and which laws it shouldn't? In any case this thing going on against ESF is plain silly. But then again, it won't last for very long, after all they have lowest rates and very good quality of instruction. It's just strange that you see no problem with businesses operating by violating local laws. This is unfair competition last time I checked. Or as long as they are British and dumping the French wage it's fine? |
Strawman. Are you going for the full set of informal logical fallacies?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| never summer wrote: |
| People can ski but need to have their hands held to talk to other people who stay in their chalet... What precludes people to arrange at dinner to go ski together the next morning and explore the resort is beyond me. |
It's not difficult is it? Certainly for Brits assessing a potential ski partner's ability over dinner is fraught with problems "I've skied a bit" does that mean you're Konrad Bartelski or literally you've skied once but are hyper confident? It's a bit rude to arrange to ski with someone then after the first run say "You're a bit sh*t mind if we go our separate ways?" Skiing with a host neatly bypasses these issues enabling a social grouping that there is no embrassment in dropping out of for whatever reason.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The French are really ridiculous.
I have boycotted France because of this, and so far so good. Don't miss a bit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| never summer wrote: |
| laundryman, Well, the standards are set by French Sports Ministry. And they are the competent authority in this area, so I am not sure who do you call by a subset of population. In any case if there was such a subset have you ever considered that they might have a more legitimate interest? Because guiding is only a tip of the iceberg but there wider concerns about low wage of imported chalet labour, or is it also ESF fault. By free society do you imply the one where foreign tourists and foreign businesses catering for them dictate which laws should the host country have and which laws it shouldn't? In any case this thing going on against ESF is plain silly. But then again, it won't last for very long, after all they have lowest rates and very good quality of instruction. It's just strange that you see no problem with businesses operating by violating local laws. This is unfair competition last time I checked. Or as long as they are British and dumping the French wage it's fine? |
Are you going to give a warranty on that? ESF has a very variable quality of instruction by virtue of its size, (lack of) diversity and joke like attitude toward snowboarding. That's not the same as them having a number of very good instructors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
fatbob, A friend of ours met a guy in a bar in VT once. They got on well so she agreed to meet him the following day so they could have a ski date. When they met, he was wearing a pink and orange one piece, a red sweat band and mirrored aviators. She has always said it was providence that he was a terrible skier because she was able to just ski away. She never saw him again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| thecramps wrote: |
| fatbob, A friend of ours met a guy in a bar in VT once. They got on well so she agreed to meet him the following day so they could have a ski date. When they met, he was wearing a pink and orange one piece, a red sweat band and mirrored aviators. She has always said it was providence that he was a terrible skier because she was able to just ski away. She never saw him again. |
Was he a podium dancer at La Folie and she'd failed to notice his standard attire cos she'd partaken? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| thecramps wrote: |
| fatbob, A friend of ours met a guy in a bar in VT once. They got on well so she agreed to meet him the following day so they could have a ski date. When they met, he was wearing a pink and orange one piece, a red sweat band and mirrored aviators. She has always said it was providence that he was a terrible skier because she was able to just ski away. She never saw him again. |
I wondered where she bloody went.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
emwmarine, 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
emwmarine,
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| never summer wrote: |
| laundryman, Well, the standards are set by French Sports Ministry. And they are the competent authority in this area |
That does not mean they can set any standards they choose, since France is subject to EU law on freedom of movement of labour and freedom to provide services. Restrictions on those freedoms must be "proportionate" (a favourite word in interpretation of EU law).
If you want to argue that the Eurotest is a proportionate requirement to be permitted to show holidaymakers the nicest restaurants on the mountain, I'd very much look forward to hearing your rationale.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 29-01-14 8:53; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| dogwatch wrote: |
| never summer wrote: |
| laundryman, Well, the standards are set by French Sports Ministry. And they are the competent authority in this area |
That does not mean they can set any standards they choose, since France is subset to EU law on freedom of movement of labour and freedom to provide services. Restrictions on those freedoms must be "proportionate" (a favourite word in interpretation of EU law).
If you want to argue that the Eurotest is a proportionate requirement to be permitted to show holidaymakers the nicest restaurants on the mountain, I'd very much look forward to hearing your rationale. |
Moreover the French complaint is that the TO staff showing people round the resort have no guiding qualification. Well the primary function of all instructors is to be able to teach. How many have a teaching qualification of any kind ? I guess <5%. It's no use being a great skier if you can't translate that into getting others to understand what is necessary to be able to ski well. Unfortunately in my limited experience and the anecdotal evidence I have from others is that many ESF instructors are still frankly more of the "do what I do" approach rather than being of the "this is what you need to do and this is how we are going to get you to be able to do that" method which is in fact what many of the independent schools have grasped.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Claude B, can't say I've ever seen anything 'dodgy' about Ski Friends. Charlotte will tell you they're all nutters, but she tends to say that about anyone who isn't either a complete beginner or an instructor.
PJSki, ski guiding/hosting/whatever groups have never been open to beginners - I'm sure you know this very well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lizzard, From what I've seen (far less than you) some of their leaders are pretty poor skiers and they don't lead their groups very well. And of course they're Belgian
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| dsoutar wrote: |
| Unfortunately in my limited experience and the anecdotal evidence I have from others is that many ESF instructors are still frankly more of the "do what I do" approach rather than being of the "this is what you need to do and this is how we are going to get you to be able to do that" method which is in fact what many of the independent schools have grasped. |
Which is obviously why the French are such appalling skiers and rarely in the top finishers in world cup events.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
feef, nobody said the French were bad skiers (though there are plenty of bad French skiers out there, particularly in February). The assertion was that the ESF's teaching style leaves things tp be desired.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
