 Poster: A snowHead
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Ski Racing reveals some lateral thinking from Bode Miller today that provoked a rapid reaction from FIS Secretary General Sarah Lewis.
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Miller offered a unique argument for legalizing the use of performance-enhancing drugs.
“I’m surprised it’s illegal,” Miller said, “because in our sport, it would be pretty minimal health risks, and it would actually make it safer for the athletes, because you’d have less chance of making a mistake at the bottom and killing yourself.” |
Sarah Lewis's response hardly disguised her irritation at apparently pro-doping comments from one of the icons of the sport:
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“Bode is renowned for making off-the-wall-type statements. That he now sees himself as qualified to comment on regulations about doping is interesting, to say the least...
“Should the persons responsible for World Cup courses think the athletes were making themselves overextended for what a trained man or woman could accomplish safely, there would be changes to the technical parts of the course, not the introduction of artificial methods or substances, which not only is cheating, but has potentially disastrous effects on an athlete’s health.” |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Let's hope that they're testing HIM regularly - we don't want our guys pushed down the ratings for a cheat 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It'd be interesting to hear (ex-North Londoner) Sarah Lewis's comments on women seeking to ski jump - I wonder if she's allowed to comment on that?!
Bode Miller's second quoted comment is odd. Since when do racers kill themselves at the bottom of race courses - apart from killing themselves to get their skis off for a quick flash at the TV cameras?
I guess performance-enhancing drugs might improve their ski advertising performances - quicker times at whipping the skis off.
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I suppose any mistake at the speeds involved is potentially fatal and as fatigue sets in and speed increases, accidents are more likely towards the bottom of the run.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Whatever. This is worse than stupidity - it's a gross deriliction of responsibility from a figurehead of sport. Maybe we'll get some reaction from the ski governing body in the USA - the USSA. Presumably they were asked to comment, ahead of approaching the FIS. People are ruined by drugs in every field of life - least of all sport.
According to the article, the latest issue of Ski Racing is devoted to "an in-depth analysis of the role of doping in alpine skiing". Anyone got a copy of it? It's shocking to see Ski Racing report that doping is "prevalent", which suggests that testing and control has failed. There have been recent reports that organised crime is involved, because it is so lucrative.
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When you witness the increasing pressure to which these athletes are subjected - more and more intensive training in particular - it's not really surprising. I've even heard rumours of a coach encouraging kids - not yet 15 - to use those nicotine sweets pre-race, the kind you put between gum and cheek, and which are supposedly directly absorbed for a calming effect on those prone to panic.
Then when you see the training regimes of the older athletes, you can well imagine nutritional supplements etc being taken in an effort to increase staying power and resistance to injury/illness. I saw one WC guy come straight off a series of slalom training runs on the glacier to immediately do 20 press-ups in the finish area before going back up. The fitness/strength levels these racers aspire to nowadays is awesome. The temptation to go one step further in terms of doping must be considerable.
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PG,
Very true, I wouldn't condone it tho' and I would like to see what the drugs authority do about it.
I would like to see a zero policy in sport, one stike and you're out, how to police it and enforce it
are completely different matters, I agree.
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Pressure on athletes - and their coaches - from sponsors, must be unrelenting. Can't see that anything will eradicate the problem, as long as there are increasing commercial interests and money at stake, the ways to fool the authorities will always be found, the drug detection bodies will always be playing catch-up.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Maybe all the madness will end by humankind removing professionalism, financial victory money and commercial sponsorship from sport. The Olympic movement, led by IOC president Avery Brundage, put up a furious defence of amateur sport in the late 1960s. Skiing was a threshold sport in forcing the inclusion of professional athletes. Karl Schranz was the figurehead skier of the day, and prime mover - the Bode Miller of his day, perhaps.
Read how the tide turned in 1968 and 1972 here: Fact Monster.
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In the real world though that's just not going to happen. So given that abuse will continue, and the science of abuse will mostly be one step ahead, what's the solution?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I wouldnt worry about the drugs he is quite often seenn in the Funky Chicken in St Anton slamming a few Frozen Margaritas 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stanton, maybe he downs a couple before each race, with a tequila hit no wonder he looks so relaxed in the start gate...
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PG, Im pretty sure he does . He is not alone I've been in the bar In Portillo downing a few with Austrian Ski Team just hours before there going to hammer down the hill
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You know it makes sense.
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According to this report on The Guardian's website [scroll down to second story], the specific drug which Bode Miller was referring to was "the banned blood boosting drug erythropoietin (EPO), which has been linked to the death of several cyclists in recent years".
One very famous cyclist - Lance Armstrong, seven-time winner of the Tour de France - has denied ever taking the drug, in response to (unsourced) French press allegations that urine samples from 1998/1999 (when the drug was apparently legal) prove otherwise. It's not clear whether Armstrong has requested authoritative independent testing of his stored urine samples, which might clear the matter up, but this report from MedPage Today asserts that he is "haunted" by these samples.
Whatever the facts concerning Armstrong, who has never failed a drug test, it seems astonishing that Bode Miller is extolling the benefits of a drug actually linked to death in sport (by saying that it might save life). Maybe time for him to 'get real'?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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brian
brian
Guest
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Horrendous.
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brian
brian
Guest
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David Goldsmith, Pantani's death was eventually linked to cocaine rather than EPO, I think.
Incidentally, the EPO related deaths have tended to be either early on in its history as a cycling drug or youngsters aspiring to be pro cyclists. The big teams have the science of the stuff a bit more down pat (he alleged speculatively) and are not likely to get the dosage wrong enough to cause blood clotting.
Michele Ferrari, a doctor who works with cyclists including Armstrong, was quoted as saying EPO was "no more dangerous than taking orange juice". Now how did he know that 
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Bode's statement should be treated as what it is: merely a thought-provoking suggestion that tries to disregard orthodox thinking. Yes, in theory, if you could find a substance that reduced fatigue, with no side effects, it would make crashes on the lower parts of downhill courses less likely. There already is a legal (I think) product that claims to do this - www.sportlegs.com
Every statement from Sarah Lewis should be regarded as the moves of a politician burnishing her image with a view to future advancement in the hierarchy of sports bureaucracy. Sarah deliberately tried to lengthen Alain Baxter's ban in 2002 (by not taking account of the S. Hemisphere season), presumably in order to strengthen her image as a "tough on doping" administrator - allegedly!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Maybe all the madness will end by humankind removing professionalism, financial victory money and commercial sponsorship from sport. |
So sport will just be for the landed gentry with time on their hands, then?
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What's the career path to become FIS Secretary General? Is it normally held by former athletes? Sounds like a good way to make a living from the world of competitve skiing without actually needing to be a competitive skier!
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Replace the word 'sport' with skiing and you might have an argument there, Martin, but no - sport in general can be cheap and non-elitist. We've seen less than four decades of skiing as a primarily professional sport, and it seems to be going wrong. If 'Ski Racing' is saying that doping is "prevalent" don't we need to look at the incentive for taking the drugs and whether the side-effects make a nonsense of sport.
Doesn't Sarah Lewis's quote in the Guardian have a certain logic? : "If we thought the athletes were making themselves over-extended for what a trained man or woman could accomplish safely there would be changes to the technical parts of the course, not the introduction of artificial methods or substances."
You say that Sarah Lewis allegedy tried to lengthen Alain Baxter's ban. Was that allegation made by someone who'd heard directly from her? Would she herself have an influence on the panel/committee concerned?
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rob@rar.org.uk, I'm no expert on the shenanigans of sports governing bodies, but after retiring from racing, Sarah worked as "Alpine Director" for the British Ski Federation, then as "Continental Cup Director" for FIS. She allied herself closely with then FIS Sec-Gen Gian Franco Kasper, and was rewarded when he was promoted to President, by being made Sec-Gen herself. Next stop IOC?
There are former athletes involved with FIS (eg Michel Vion) - also former coaches turned administrators (eg Bill Marolt).
Council listed here: http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/insidefis/fiscouncil.html
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Replace the word 'sport' with skiing and you might have an argument there, Martin, but no - sport in general can be cheap and non-elitist. |
Then it is not sport but recreation. Sport is about winning and losing. Those who win are usually those who have the most time to train. If the sport is not professional, only those with an "independent income" have enough time to train. Others must work their "day jobs".
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Doesn't Sarah Lewis's quote in the Guardian have a certain logic? : "If we thought the athletes were making themselves over-extended for what a trained man or woman could accomplish safely there would be changes to the technical parts of the course, not the introduction of artificial methods or substances." |
Yes, it's a very sensible statement. Bode's talk of "killing yourself" is an exaggeration and unnecessarily alarmist. Since the two fatalities in World Cup ski-racing in the early 90s the FIS have done a good job of tightening safety measures at the races. I don't know what they have done to increase safety in pre-season training since the Cavagnoud fatality, but presumably some steps have been taken.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Who was the cyclist who was asked whether he used performance enhancing drugs, and answered that he had, but "only when absolutely necessary".
When pressed how often on Le Tour it was absolutely necessary, he answered "almost every day".
The problem with legalising drugs in sport would seem to be, how would you stop the athletes from endangering their health. If everyone else is using the "safe" drug, (and some of them are relatively safe), what would stop someone from using a "dangerous" drug to get just a little more of an advantage?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Martin Bell wrote: |
| Since the two fatalities in World Cup ski-racing in the early 90s the FIS have done a good job of tightening safety measures at the races. I don't know what they have done to increase safety in pre-season training since the Cavagnoud fatality, but presumably some steps have been taken. |
During the trial of coach Xavier Fournier and starter David Fine this was reported:
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French reports on the trial have, rather worryingly, quoted both Fournier and Fine as saying that slack procedures persist and similar incidents could easily reoccur.
Although the two national teams were training together, no coordination meeting had taken place. Each team was on a separate radio frequency. Because of the language barrier, communication was achieved mainly by hand gestures. There is no specific regulation under FIS rules governing procedures during training sessions, despite the fact that speeds in excess of 100 kph are achieved.
Jean-Philippe Vuillet, former French team coach and now working for the Swiss, hammered the message home when he testifed that "training pistes are open motorways, anyone can cross them. We're constantly on edge, frightened that an accident will happen." The presiding judge commented "Surely there's been some sort of revision of procedures since this disaster?"
Vuillet responded: "Talks with other teams have got nowhere, no one wants to take responsibility for fixing new safety rules, perhaps because it would be too expensive. Four years have gone by since Régine's accident, and nothing has changed."
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| You say that Sarah Lewis allegedy tried to lengthen Alain Baxter's ban. Was that allegation made by someone who'd heard directly from her? Would she herself have an influence on the panel/committee concerned? |
The allegation was made by someone who was part of Snowsports GB at the time. I'll leave you to imagine who that might have been - shouldn't be too tough  .
It's confusing because there were two appeals with CAS, one vs IOC regarding the medal, and one vs FIS regarding the length of the ban from FIS competition (and whether that should include southern hemisphere). The former got most of the media attention, but I have found a mention of the latter here http://www.skipressmag.com/2001/USA/index.asp?centre=article&recno=1033
Also a mention in a Snowsport GB press release on their site www.snowsportgb.com:
FIS Clears Baxter of Cheating
The International Ski Federation (FIS) Council met today (3/6/02) in Portoroz, Slovenia, to decide on the sanction which will be applied to Alain Baxter, Britian's leading Alpine Ski racer. According to the FIS medical guide, they must impose a sanction, following the IOC's notification of a positive doping test recorded after the men's Slalom event at the Salt Lake City Olympic Games 2002.
Baxter placed in bronze medal position at this event. The IOC has since stripped him of his medal and has disqualified him from the event. Baxter is currently appealing this decision though the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) in Lausanne. A strong case has now been submitted and we await details of a likely date for hearing, we hope in July. Should Baxter win this case, the FIS sanction will also be reviewed.
FIS Council agreed that the alleged prohibited substance found in Baxter's sample had been taken unintentionally - an offence which carries a three month ban for a first offence - and ruled that Baxter will be banned from further FIS competition until 15th December 2002, crucially forcing him to miss out on the opening World Cup event of the season.
John Clark, who has been coordinating the Baxter appeal while Alain attempts to focus on preparations for the season ahead, stated, "While an "unintentional use" ruling, at this stage, is welcomed, I am disappointed that the six week Southern Hemisphere season has been ignored in the FIS considerations, effectively imposing a ban of four and a half competition months. By December this case will have been hampering Baxter's career for eight months. However, I believe that the case we have submitted to CAS is a strong one and hope both the IOC and FIS decisions can ultimately be overturned."
Timing has been an issue throughout this case, with an uncommon delay between the race and the subsequent IOC ruling, compounded by a long wait for a mutually suitable CAS hearing.
Baxter is currently digesting today's news and will decide in the coming weeks what, if any further action is to be taken.
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You know it makes sense.
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Well, I think it would be interesting to invite Sarah Lewis to comment on all this. I'll be very surprised if she's willing to express a private view on the Alain Baxter affair, but she may be willing to explain - in general -whether her role is influential in rulings of this nature.
As for Alain Baxter and his medal, my view's always been that he should have been allowed to retain it. Hopefully the British ski community will honour him in a major way for his achievement, which I can't see was influenced by the Vicks inhaler - his peers all seemed to judge him as a 100% fair competitor, but their views were ignored.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Martin Bell wrote: |
| Yes, it's a very sensible statement. Bode's talk of "killing yourself" is an exaggeration and unnecessarily alarmist. Since the two fatalities in World Cup ski-racing in the early 90s the FIS have done a good job of tightening safety measures at the races. |
Pity he didn't leave it at "serious injury", or career-threatening injury". I wonder what percentage of professional skiers set off airport security alarms or can hardly bend at the knees by the time they reach middle age? Did I read somewhere that WC slalomers were reaching 40mph sometimes, and that FIS was thinking of shortening the distance between gates? Even in the 'technical' disciplines, there's considerable risk - remember that spectacular fall of Rahlves at Adelboden in January in GS - he went all the way from one gate to the next in midair. Fortunately the safety netting was up to the job.
Given the risks involved, the rewards for most are pretty slim.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 7-10-05 8:12; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Maybe there is a more general (i.e. not specifically Swiss) truth in ski racers being an "endangered species".
These are complex affairs, very complex affairs, led by the financial carrot. The forefathers of ski racing in the 1860s and 1870s - the gold miners of California - regarded speed itself as the only drug. Interestingly, they called the stuff they spread across the bases of their skis "dope":
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| With speed as their primary objective, the racers constantly worked to improve their equipment and technique. They developed grooved skis fastened with leather straps and they created a strange and mysterious substance called "dope," a tar wax composed of bees’ wax, human sperm, spruce oil and various other adhesive ingredients. This was applied to the bottom of the ski to increase speed by preventing snow from sticking. They also invented a low crouch to fight wind resistance. |
From: http://www.aspenhistory.org/tipchp1.html
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
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| a tar wax composed of bees’ wax, human sperm, spruce oil and various other adhesive ingredients. |
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Eeugh! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I bet waxing your own skis was never more popular than during those long dark winter nights 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Well, I think it would be interesting to invite Sarah Lewis to comment on all this. I'll be very surprised if she's willing to express a private view on the Alain Baxter affair, but she may be willing to explain - in general -whether her role is influential in rulings of this nature. |
Officially, FIS decisions are taken by votes of the various committes, which are listed here:
http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/insidefis/fiscommittees.html (click on the various committees to get lists of names).
As paid officials rather than committee members, I am not sure whether Gian Franco Kasper and Sarah Lewis even have votes.
Before the votes are counted, I would imagine that a lot of unofficial "horse-trading" goes on, and I would be very surprised if we were ever to have any details made public via this forum.
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The beauty of this medium is that Sarah Lewis can express her words absolutely as she wishes, in her own considered form, without any intermediary involved. And she can express them as her first and final words if she wishes. It would probably be unfair to expect her to 'undergo' a Q&A session, since I guess she's a very busy person.
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Bode Miller has spoken again about performance-enhancing drugs, now openly endorsing legal use. Sarah Lewis of the FIS has dug in her heels in response.
This report from CBSSportsLine.com.
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| "I feel it's super hypocritical for a drug to be legal for you to buy, but not for an athlete to buy," said Miller, a favorite for Sunday's giant slalom. "Used in a way directed by a doctor or directed by the research that's out there, even some drugs like EPO could potentially balance the risk of long term health problems against the potential gains for not injuring yourself. |
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| Miller said he has never used performance-enhancing drugs. |
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"For us it's very clear," FIS general secretary Sarah Lewis said. "Our rules are established by experts whose main goal is to protect the health of athletes. They also make sure everyone respects the principle of fair play and the ethics of the sport. FIS supports the fight against doping 100 percent.
"Miller is making more and more declarations on different topics. We aren't going to react with any great force. Our rules are clear." |
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There's now a backlash against Bode Miller's comments from other racers: this MSNBC report. Ski Racing has more.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bode Miller has been explaining his controversial views on drugs to Tim Layden of Sports Illustrated, mentioning the case of Alain Baxter who was stripped of his bronze Olympic medal at the 2002 Games: click here.
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FAQ
