 Poster: A snowHead
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Mail received...
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Dear Ski Club Member,
Thank you for pre-registering to ski with Ian Holt, the Leader in Les Arcs, next week. Unfortunately, due to issues in resort we have had to postpone the Leading Service in Les Arcs indefinitely.
Ian will be at the advertised meeting point (Bottom of Chantel Chairlift, Arc 1800) at the normal times each morning, and will also attend Social Hour (Bar Chez Boubou, Arc 1800) as planned all next week. Please feel free to meet Ian either morning or evening, or call him on the Leader's phone (+44 (0)7540 048 547) should you have any questions.
We apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause. |
Anecdotally .. he was accused of guiding without required paperwork / qualifications. I don't know any more that I can post.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 16-03-12 22:40; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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allanm, I don't know if this is more than you can post, but would it be right to say that 'differences' between the Ski Club and the authorities (ESF??) in Les Arcs have been simmering for some years now?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Can of worms re- opened?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Pedantica, I don't really know, I'm just 'ground level' I know a fair few ESF guys in Vallandry and they don't seem to have any animosity towards operations such as the aforementioned, I don't know what the 'bosses' think though.
Guess I've sort of outgrown SCGB but the bottom line is I'd have had to pay the same service had SCGB not existed in the past. I haven't rejoined this year for that reason [outgrown SCGB].
Edit.. I've a funny feeling that actually legitimate Brit instructors have more to lose....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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sequoiaboard ^^^ Not sure what you mean there, but for a chat I guess yes?
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Was/is he a ski host though or a mountain guide?
I only ask as I wonder if it'll have implications for companies which have ski hosts.
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Piccadilly, search the forum, there are a bunch of threads of enormous length on this.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles, I've seen a couple of them, I'm aware it's a bone of contention - just wondered..
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Isn't here a snowHead who is a qualified (or trainee?) guide in Les Arcs?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Boredsurfing, I know every route from anywhere in Les Arcs to the Vanoise, that count 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Didn't a les Arcs SCGB rep have guest who was killed off piste? Maybe they wan't to tighten up a bit on what they are up to in resort?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof, hadnt heard about that.... We got quizzed on piste during a club trip coaching in Les Arcs last season, but once we explained what we were doing the local ski school guys were fine...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| Anecdotally .. he was accused of guiding without required paperwork / qualifications. |
This doesn't come as a surprise as SCGB leaders fall in the same category as the thread on "Ski Hosts, Good Bad or Indifferent".
This isn't necessarily an issue with the ESF. The checks are carried out by the DDCS along with the PGHM and is simply them ensuring that the French regulations on instruction, leading, "guiding", etc are respected.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| davidof, hadnt heard about that.... |
Someone talked about it at one of the sH bashes but it could just be one of those resort rumours. Seemed to be lots of conflicting information about the story at the time. It seems it wasn't an official SC trip but maybe it has had some weighting in how the SC considered in les Arcs?
Regarding mark's point, normally the SC is invited into resort by the tourist office so they have some kind of semi-official standing. Although tourist offices, the mayor, ski schools are separate although often cooperating bodies. So SC reps would seem to be on firmer ground than ski hosts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidof wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| davidof, hadnt heard about that.... |
Someone talked about it at one of the sH bashes but it could just be one of those resort rumours. Seemed to be lots of conflicting information about the story at the time. It seems it wasn't an official SC trip but maybe it has had some weighting in how the SC considered in les Arcs?
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That was that rogue rep the ski club has since sacked and thrown out. He asked anyone who wanted more info to PM him, then moaned about being PM'ed.
Rumour has it that he was doing a mountain guide course in Les Arcs, was hopelessly out of his depth regarding the mountaineering part but demanded to be given a special pass as a 'skiing only' mountain guide, which the course director refused.
In my opinion, the guy's a fecking fantasist. He is still active as a free guide but I have advised all my skiing buddies not to join his groups as, in my opinion, he is dangerous.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yes that is more or less what I was told by a couple of people. "He'd been leading unauthorized off piste trips and one of the guests fell and was killed. When the rescue services turned up he stuffed his jacket in his rucksack and claimed to be a bystander."
I have no idea who the rep. actually was, they rotate a lot in resort and, quite importantly, no-one suggested the rep or any decision he/she made was responsible for the death.
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| davidof wrote: |
Yes that is more or less what I was told by a couple of people. "He'd been leading unauthorized off piste trips and one of the guests fell and was killed. When the rescue services turned up he stuffed his jacket in his rucksack and claimed to be a bystander."
I have no idea who the rep. actually was, they rotate a lot in resort and, quite importantly, no-one suggested the rep or any decision he/she made was responsible for the death. |
Interesting, but as no one suggested he was negligent, I'd be interested to know what exactly what he did wrong - morally or legally.
When all is said and done, if a skier makes a mistake.... as I often do, but generally 'get down anything' I'd be surprised if I could blame the guide / leader for my mistake...? Guides do weigh up your ability... but we all do make mistakes.
Rather confused on this one.
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| allanm wrote: |
Interesting, but as no one suggested he was negligent, I'd be interested to know what exactly what he did wrong - morally or legally.
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Nothing as far as I know. Personally I'm in favour of the SCGB doing off piste trips but you can imagine the French police might not be so nice.
I just wondered whether this (alleged) incident had contributed to the problems the SCGB has in les Arcs now, given they are normally there with the approval of the resort.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^^^ I don't know, but I believe Arc Ad****ure still operate - and they've had a hard time lately..?
So.. being devils advocate, it's OK / legal to kill someone if you have a license?
It is a 'dangerous sport' insurance has rocketed this year (except CN) IMHO you must take some responsibility for yourself.
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| davidof wrote: |
Yes that is more or less what I was told by a couple of people. "He'd been leading unauthorized off piste trips and one of the guests fell and was killed. When the rescue services turned up he stuffed his jacket in his rucksack and claimed to be a bystander."
I have no idea who the rep. actually was, they rotate a lot in resort and, quite importantly, no-one suggested the rep or any decision he/she made was responsible for the death. |
Yeah, well, a group of two, one a weak skier, rotten snow, a mistake by the weaker skier = death on this occasion. Accident, or not? You lot deicide.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| allanm wrote: |
So.. being devils advocate, it's OK / legal to kill someone if you have a license?
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The lack of professional certification and the fact you are an "outsider" may be used against you. I could imagine.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| davidof wrote: |
| allanm wrote: |
So.. being devils advocate, it's OK / legal to kill someone if you have a license?
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The lack of professional certification and the fact you are an "outsider" may be used against you. I could imagine. |
Not really, the law is the law and so is the level of duty of care.
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| PJSki wrote: |
Not really, the law is the law and so is the level of duty of care. |
so coming back to the original point, why do you think the SC has had to suspend guiding in les Arcs? Has he been "guiding" or just doing the usual SC thing of showing people around the slopes? You know "blues and twos" etc.
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You know it makes sense.
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PJSki, so are you saying there actually was a fatality involving a SC rep/leader at Les Arcs this season?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| davidof wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
Not really, the law is the law and so is the level of duty of care. |
so coming back to the original point, why do you think the SC has had to suspend guiding in les Arcs? Has he been "guiding" or just doing the usual SC thing of showing people around the slopes? You know "blues and twos" etc. |
Feck knows.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| achilles wrote: |
| PJSki, so are you saying there actually was a fatality involving a SC rep/leader at Les Arcs this season? |
I got my info from davidof:
| Quote: |
| Yes that is more or less what I was told by a couple of people. "He'd been leading unauthorized off piste trips and one of the guests fell and was killed. When the rescue services turned up he stuffed his jacket in his rucksack and claimed to be a bystander." |
And the guy himself said the SC had sacked him.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Rumour has it that he was doing a mountain guide course in Les Arcs, was hopelessly out of his depth regarding the mountaineering part but demanded to be given a special pass as a 'skiing only' mountain guide, which the course director refused.
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All of that sounds really unlikely. You don't get onto the mountain guide courses without submitting a huge logbook of mountaineering routes and then going through a pretty strict interview and very-tough pre-assessment. Even after that, the mountaineering and skiing sections are assessed on separate courses.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I heard from the ex-rep in question by e-mail that he gave up the trainee Guiding because it was costing too much (but there may have been stuff he didn't tell me). Anything about someone being killed (if true) would have been since then. But since he was no longer working for the Ski Club I don't see how this would affect them (unless he was wearing the jacket and pretending to still be a rep). He had been denounced as being dangerous by Ski Club members who had not skied with him on the basis of where he himself had said he had taken people. He asked the people he had guided to support him (which they did) but that made no difference. (By the way I skied with him once but not in his SCGB capacity and found him quite cautious. However since we were a high level group this may mean nothing.)
SCGB leaders are not like ski hosts since it is accepted by resorts that they take people off-piste, though in recent years less far off-piste than in the past. This followed 2 relatively recent deaths in groups led by SCGB reps (the only ones in over 100 years, which isn't bad).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| SCGB leaders are not like ski hosts since it is accepted by resorts that they take people off-piste, though in recent years less far off-piste than in the past. This followed 2 relatively recent deaths in groups led by SCGB reps (the only ones in over 100 years, which isn't bad). |
Sorry, but this is highly misleading. It is not up to resorts to decide who can "guide", instruct, teach, lead, etc. The regulations are absolutely clear and these regulations are made by the French Sports Ministry.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Sorry, but this is highly misleading. It is not up to resorts to decide who can "guide", instruct, teach, lead, etc. The regulations are absolutely clear and these regulations are made by the French Sports Ministry.
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Yes, when the person performing the duties is paid for doing so - otherwise I couldn;t take a bunch of mates down an off piste run that I know. The question is what counts as remuneration, as the SCGB chaps are not paid when in resort as far as I'm aware, but do get free lodgings and food?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| nbt wrote: |
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Sorry, but this is highly misleading. It is not up to resorts to decide who can "guide", instruct, teach, lead, etc. The regulations are absolutely clear and these regulations are made by the French Sports Ministry.
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Yes, when the person performing the duties is paid for doing so - otherwise I couldn;t take a bunch of mates down an off piste run that I know. The question is what counts as remuneration, as the SCGB chaps are not paid when in resort as far as I'm aware, but do get free lodgings and food? |
A la Nixmap 
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| marksavoie wrote: |
| The regulations are absolutely clear and these regulations are made by the French Sports Ministry. |
Could you honestly say that those regulations were made to protect the skier or whether they were made to protect French jobs ?
My only experience with SCGB leading was over a few days in Verbier and on those occasions I was well aware that the leader had no guiding qualifications but I was also happy with his attitude to risk, his knowledge of the area and as I wasn't paying for it, I wasn't expecting to be spoon-fed. The fact that the three of us skiing off-piste had also turned up with our own shovels / transceivers etc also reassured me that there was some sense of responsibility in our group.
On the other hand, a qualified French ski guide who led my group of seven paying skiers through Vallon and Chancel at La Grave a few years back on a risk 4/5 day had to provide transceivers to four of the group and as only three of us carried our own shovels, I assume it was only the three of us who had any knowledge of how to go about using a beacon or rescuing a burial.
I've already drawn my own conclusions as to why these stories seem to routinely come from France and I'd resent not being free to be led by who I choose to be led by when I'm not paying a fee for a guides qualifications.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| marksavoie wrote: |
| The regulations are absolutely clear and these regulations are made by the French Sports Ministry. |
Could you honestly say that those regulations were made to protect the skier or whether they were made to protect French jobs ?
My only experience with SCGB leading was over a few days in Verbier and on those occasions I was well aware that the leader had no guiding qualifications but I was also happy with his attitude to risk, his knowledge of the area and as I wasn't paying for it, I wasn't expecting to be spoon-fed. The fact that the three of us skiing off-piste had also turned up with our own shovels / transceivers etc also reassured me that there was some sense of responsibility in our group.
On the other hand, a qualified French ski guide who led my group of seven paying skiers through Vallon and Chancel at La Grave a few years back on a risk 4/5 day had to provide transceivers to four of the group and as only three of us carried our own shovels, I assume it was only the three of us who had any knowledge of how to go about using a beacon or rescuing a burial.
I've already drawn my own conclusions as to why these stories seem to routinely come from France and I'd resent not being free to be led by who I choose to be led by when I'm not paying a fee for a guides qualifications. |
French law is clear on this, you don't need to be qualified to guide (or instruct) for free.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| marksavoie wrote: |
| Quote: |
| SCGB leaders are not like ski hosts since it is accepted by resorts that they take people off-piste, though in recent years less far off-piste than in the past. This followed 2 relatively recent deaths in groups led by SCGB reps (the only ones in over 100 years, which isn't bad). |
Sorry, but this is highly misleading. It is not up to resorts to decide who can "guide", instruct, teach, lead, etc. The regulations are absolutely clear and these regulations are made by the French Sports Ministry. |
Sorry, but he is actually highly correct in what he says.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| marksavoie wrote: |
| Quote: |
| SCGB leaders are not like ski hosts since it is accepted by resorts that they take people off-piste, though in recent years less far off-piste than in the past. This followed 2 relatively recent deaths in groups led by SCGB reps (the only ones in over 100 years, which isn't bad). |
Sorry, but this is highly misleading. It is not up to resorts to decide who can "guide", instruct, teach, lead, etc. The regulations are absolutely clear and these regulations are made by the French Sports Ministry. |
Sorry, but he is actually highly correct in what he says. |
ohh gosh this is going to get silly. marksavoie was correct. It is nothing to do with the resorts (forget paying or not paying) and wholly down to the law of the land as (unlike Canada / US for example) skiing is done on publicly owned land etc therefore law of the land comes into effect and administered by the DDJS (French Sports Ministry) who execute the law and can direct other organisation such as the Gendarmes to arrest people.
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FAQ
I don't think I have ever been the same route twice, including getting way off the route and ending up in 1800 because the TWO lifts we tried to get were both broken and closed 
. You want to talk crap lifts then head of to the 'La Plagne' thread and see what a visitor says of La Plagne and its lifts. 