 Poster: A snowHead
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I've noticed in the buy and sell boards a number of sets of adults skis for sale that are as short as the skis my kids are on. Hopefully what they have now will last a year or so, but ultimately they will both grow again. Are there any fundamental differences between kids and adults skis when a certain length is reached or is just down to the colour of the top coat? i.e. can a lightly built 13/14 year old (or maybe younger) ski something that is sold for an adult or do they make 'adult' skis stiffer in someway to accommodate an adult's stronger muscles.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 18-04-12 11:27; edited 6 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, My daughter was on adult skis at about 12 I think. She had 144cm Elan All Mountain Skis which lasted her a couple of years and for the past 2 years she has been on 155cm Dynastar She's Trouble Twin Tips. She's only about 5' 4" and 7.5st now at 16 so very slight. As long as they're not too stiff or long they should be fine. I've just got her some stiff advanced women's piste skis to complement the twin tips and because her technique is very good she has had no trouble with them at all.
It might be a little more difficult with boys as men's skis don't tend to start as short a women's.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Does the VAT thing apply to kids skis like it would to buying adult/kids other stuff?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, I can't see the advantage of kids the age you mention skiing on adult skis unless they are particularly heavy or your needing something more specialized off piste/park maybe? but if they are strong skiers on piste let their technique blossom and keep them on Jr specific race skis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Is there anywhere on this site where I can find a size/height/age/length type chart please?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, I was about to ask the same question! Son who has just turned 13 has just outgrown his 141 salomon Fish ski's which he has loved but by next winter they will be below chin height. He's pretty light at 35kg but a strong skier, last week he tried a pair of ex-rental Line Mastermind's which we're 157, liked them (there was a lot of powder around) but they were, unsurprisingly, harder work and at 200 euros overpriced. He's now scouring the internet and magazines for options - some women's all mountain models would work but the graphics don't tend to appeal to a 13 year old boy! I see Volkl Gotama's come in a junior version at around 155 so they may well be a good option. If anyone has experience/recommendations I'd love to get some advice, he likes to go fast but not over worried about racing would rather ski off-piste and over the jumps to be honest.
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Not sure if this is all true but it sounds about right:
http://www.evo.com/how-to-choose-ski-bindings-guide-and-din-setting-chart.aspx
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Junior Norms vs. Adult Norms for Alpine Ski Bindings and Ski Boots
All current alpine boot manufacturers make ski boots with different adult vs. junior norms that meet ISO (the International Organization for Standardization) standards. Alpine ski boots are typically stamped with “ISO” or “DIN” to indicate that they conform to the norms. Generally, adult ski boot sole dimension norms begin at size mondopoint 22 (US Men’s Size 4) and go up to 31.5 or even higher. Junior ski boots run from mondopoint 14.5 to mondopoint 22.5. This is critically important to note, as you will need a ski binding that conforms to either the adult norm or junior norm. You cannot use a junior norm ski boot with an adult ski binding. Junior ski bindings have lower release settings. Most junior bindings can accept adult boots but almost all adult bindings WILL NOT accept junior boots. However, there are a few exceptions where junior bindings will accept both junior and adult ski boots norms. If the child is growing rapidly and at the stage where he or she is in between junior and adult products check out a binding like the Rossignol Freeski 45 Ski Bindings because it is designed to fit both junior and adult ski boots and it also comes with a set of junior and adult mounting screws so regardless it will be compatible with the skis and boots. Before making a purchase or mounting decision, it is imperative that you confirm the binding you select for a junior is, in fact, a junior-specific binding.
Junior Skis vs. Adult Skis
Ski bindings must be compatible with the user’s skis as well as their ski boots. A thin profiled junior ski is not deep enough to accommodate adult length ski binding screws. Adult screws are designed to sink approx 8mm into the ski where junior binding screws are designed to sink only about 6mm. The extra length of an adult screw doesn’t seem like much but it is enough to leave bumps in the ski base of a junior ski. Additionally, if you were to use kid’s screws are used on an adult ski the screws won’t have enough depth to hold the binding to the ski under normal pressure applied by an adult. |
Adult boots are defined by ISO 5355.
I'm sure there's another for junior boots but I can't find it at the moment.
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The junior vs adult norm is true & often overlooked especially when young racers with small feet are trying to get onto longer or higher spec skis with adult norms, in a lot of cases they do actually adjust and appear to the unknowing to actually fit but its something that people need to be aware of and should never knowingly do this. Some junior bindings will take both Jr and adult norms.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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As both Megamum and philipb are talking about 13/14 year olds they'd quite likely be in boots above 22.5 (about UK 3). If you want to check out current boots then across the sole (at the ball of the foot) measures 69mm for adult boots and 61mm for junior boots. The toe and heel height respectively is 19mm/30mm for adult boots and 15mm/27mm for junior.
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Okanagan, Agree but altis, post was worth a mention for anyone with younger kids looking at this thread.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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You're all worrying me now. Think I'll stick to renting.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My two young skiers are both big footed elephants. Both my young lady (age 12 and about 152cm tall) and her brother (age 9 and about 145cm tall) are in matching boots: Salomon performa T3's with a mondo size of 24-24.5 (both in a UK adult size 6).
I bought one of these pairs about 3 weeks ago brand new. At the time the website I got them from (sister's fitted brother so I could buy online with confidence) had two boots for sale - both had identical pictures, both had identical size ranges, one was called a 'junior' T3 and the other a 'youth' T3 the 'junior' was £20 less in price than the 'youth', so I bought the 'junior'. However, I still wonder if there was any tangible difference between the two pairs other than their name - there was nothing evident in the description. Any thoughts would be welcome.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 17-04-12 18:15; edited 1 time in total
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For completeness this is the the text from the other thread http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=88648#2027731:
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spyderjon
legue, how little is your lad as kids boots have thinner toe/heel lugs requiring junior bindings
Megamum
spyderjon, That comment is interesting - I had not heard this before, mine are approaching that boundary of requiring a possible adult sized boot, but are still kids in terms of size and more importantly weight for skis. Both mine are currently wearing an adult size 6 shoe (mondo 24-24.5) ski boots. At the moment they are both in matching Salomon T3 performas - quite obviously a kids boot and skiing Junior RC4 Fischer race skis (so still kids skis). I am slightly bothered about the next possible size change (either to skis or boots) which might push either into an adult sized item, esp. in view of your comment above. From which I gather I have keep junior boots with junior skis - in terms of size advances do you know for how long I will be able to continue to buy junior boots and junior skis and do you have any further advice on the subject please?
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The info above goes a long way to answering this. Clearly I now have to start watching things. At the moment they have Junior RC4 race skis in 140cm and 150cm - it would seem rather by luck than judgement their boots still fit the bindings that these shipped with !!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Megamum wrote: |
For completeness this is the the text from the other thread http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=88648#2027731:
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spyderjon
legue, how little is your lad as kids boots have thinner toe/heel lugs requiring junior bindings
Megamum
spyderjon, That comment is interesting - I had not heard this before, mine are approaching that boundary of requiring a possible adult sized boot, but are still kids in terms of size and more importantly weight for skis. Both mine are currently wearing an adult size 6 shoe (mondo 24-24.5) ski boots. At the moment they are both in matching Salomon T3 performas - quite obviously a kids boot and skiing Junior RC4 Fischer race skis (so still kids skis). I am slightly bothered about the next possible size change (either to skis or boots) which might push either into an adult sized item, esp. in view of your comment above. From which I gather I have keep junior boots with junior skis - in terms of size advances do you know for how long I will be able to continue to buy junior boots and junior skis and do you have any further advice on the subject please?
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The info above goes a long way to answering this. Clearly I now have to start watching things. At the moment they have Junior RC4 race skis in 140cm and 150cm - it would seem rather by luck than judgement their boots still fit the bindings that these shipped with !! |
Megamum, asOkanagan, post... adult norm is just the term used for an adult sized sole std, it normally changes as mentioned around the Mon 22 mark, your kids boots at the size you mention are still kids specific boots but "will" have an adult norm std sole dimension, your rc4 bindings will most likely at the size you mention be adult norm stds so will probably fit all bigger sized boots you put them in (to a point) by which the skis will probably be too short for them, a clue on the bindings..if they start around din3 they are most likely adult norm. Unlikely but if less than 3 they could be Jr norms or hybrid that takes both sole stds.
Edit, to add the only time I've seen this problem is when kids with say a Mon 21 boot try to get on higher spec slalom skis from around 130cm upwards that come std with adult norm bindings with din ranges around 3-10, the other time is when I bought kiddies twin tips that were fitted with non std bindings.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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gatecrasher, Okanagan, It looks as though I've just been lucky - at every change of boot and ski so far the boots have fitted. I am pleased to see, from your postings, that I now appear to be the correct side of things though and hopefully should not have problems now as the kids grow further.
So by the time they kids are using adult norm bindings the respective 'adult' binding setting will be deemed suitable for them? Is a DIN 3 on a junior binding going to be the same as a DIN 3 on an adult binding or does the smaller toe and heel tab height change things?
I do think this information is very interesting though and at least this thread will remain for reference in the future with the search function in case others have similar concerns. Previous to this thread and spyderjon's comment I had assumed that the fitting mechansim between boot and binding was a constant regardless of boot size and that it was only the binding 'strength' which defined the two. However, when I think now about really small kids I can see why it makes sense for their gear to be 'lighter' and less chunky overall.
Has anyone got any further thoughts on ski choice - are there any popular skis for teens which are not 'adult' skis, should I stick with the Jr race skis for them, should I steer clear of adult skis until they are late teens (in which case I've got about another 3-4 years to bridge for my eldest), when do they develop the 'strength' needed to drive an adult ski or is there little difference in construction technique beyond physical size and shape? Would a 140cm lighter weight adult ladies ski be a harder thing for my slightly built eldest to ski than her RC4's? etc.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Here's the boot definitions:
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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"I've just been lucky - at every change of boot and ski so far the boots have fitted"
Megamum, that's the thing, adult bindings can be adjusted for length to fit Jr norm boots and some people do ski them like this knowingly but mostly unknowingly, eg bought off of eBay and adjusted at home, but the interface is not designed on adult norm bindings for this so they run the risk of pre release or not releasing at the correct setting, din 3 is the same tension on both stds it only changes things to an undefined setting if you mix one interface with another. Another thing that can change the current setting is if you go up a boot size the setting may need to be reduced as there can be more torque from a longer boot.
When my eldest about 10 at the time I think got some higher spec slalom skis over 130cm the minimum setting on the bindings were a 3 on the scale her boots were adult norms but her recommended din setting only just about suited the minimum setting because of her light weight.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gatecrasher, so are there different DIN setting tables for kids norm and adult norm set-ups or can they all be interpretted using the same table?
N.B. I'm still amazed that this would appear to fall into the category of new info on SH's, but I don't think this subject has been covered previously. Def. one of the most interesting info. exchanges I've seen for a while - many thanks for all the info folks.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, they are all determined from the same chart go to-
http://www.salomoncertification.com/download.jsp
And download the latest shop practices manual, page 21 for chart, if you are interested to read more it also has info on boot norms for certain kids boots, what bindings take both types of norm, what ones don't blah blah, obviously only relevant to Salomon but gives insight.
I'm sure it would have been covered before, but if you think about it...it only affects a small number of skiers, most kids that are looking at these types of ski with adult bindings will more often than not have feet bigger than mon 22, although you can get caught out when buying secondhand with non std fit bindings.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, if your kids are on race skis now then it's possible that they are already on skis that are stiffer than an adult recreational intermediate ski, so should have no problem transitioning - I can't flex some of the kids race skis........ Can you/they demo the skis? Find something they like the feel of, and then have them ski with an instructor/coach to determine if it affects their skiing in any detrimental way. Remember that on some women's specific skis the bindings are set further forward than on a unisex ski, so they might not work for a teenage boy. Also, if kids feet grow to the extent that they are fit into adult boots, remember that the boot may need to be softened if the kid is still light weight so that they can flex the boot - if the boot is too stiff they will not be able to get forward, and from about age 11 (especially in girls) we can start to expect adult movement patterns, so will want them to be forward.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Also, if kids feet grow to the extent that they are fit into adult boots, remember that the boot may need to be softened if the kid is still light weight so that they can flex the boot - if the boot is too stiff they will not be able to get forward, and from about age 11 (especially in girls) we can start to expect adult movement patterns, so will want them to be forward.
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This is the aspect that I have been worried about - I have wondered up to what sort of size you can still buy a 'junior' boot. TBH I was surprised to be able to find the current ones in a UK 'adult' size 6 - Mondo 24-24.5. Or is it the case that this sort of size is just a rebadged and repainted adult quality boot aimed at the junior market?
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Megamum, We got our son some Rossignol Radical Junior 3 boots this year on Ebay in a size 24.5 . Unfortunately they turned out to be a wee bit too large for this season so he had to stick with the 24 Salomon's which are deffo a junior boot, they are so soft that with the top lever on the tightest setting it could be closed with his little finger, by the end of the week he was cursing the things! The Rossignols do seem to be a proper Junior boot, he's looking forward to using them next year.
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I had my 13yr old son skiing in Kids boots and a pair of Adult Salomon Tornado, no problem locating the boots in the bindings. The Importand thing was to give him a ski which would perform well in some of the deeper snow, The Hire shop in Fiss were very helpful 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, you have at least 2 full sizes to go yet before you need to worry about going into adult boots, lots of people obviously get their kids into adult boots much earlier than this so down to personal choice.
I'll be keeping mine in kids reasonably soft boots for as long as needed, the daughter uses a more race orientated boot but with only a 60 flex, she races but not aggressively and is light weight, there are much stiffer boots available in her size but I prefer to keep her in softer boots as her posture is good and she doesn't get chucked around in bumped up terrain, if the child is a very aggressive skier or heavy then they might want a stiffer boot but sometimes when you see kids go from say 60 to a 90 flex they can struggle with balance when things get tough because they can't flex/soak up the terrain and get thrown back, you may even see them develop an overly forced forward position to compensate.
Kids boots are not re-badged adult boots, they are on the whole lighter so another plus.
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My daughter is 16 and still in "youth" boots (about mondo 24 I think). I had them checked in Lockwoods last year and they said that they fitted well (her feet haven't grown for some time now) and that children, particularly girls, shouldn't be moved into adults boots too early. Something to do with foot shape, bones, etc.
We're getting her some women's boots (incidentally probably at least a half size smaller) this weekend as she is now finding she needs a stiffer, more responsive boot.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yep frightening stuff!
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Colin B, Excellent find  I hadn't been as successful when I searched - it's good to post that link to put all the info together. There was actually an accident caused there through the incompatibility wasn't there? That is a tad disconcerting.
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You know it makes sense.
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Megamum, just to be clear, you can't say for sure the accident described on the other thread was caused by the boot/binding issue.
Interesting thread, gatecrasher, I think I have an issue with junior's new skis as yet unskied. Similar situation to what you have described, still in a boot size 21.0 but moved up to a 'bigger' ski. I am not 100% certain about the bindings, although they are a junior ski. Needs more looking at.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I stumbled upon that thread although I now vaguely remember doing spyderjon's test on my daughter's boots/bindings at the time.
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Poster: A snowHead
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sarah, Agree could well have been pilot error, only the people watching could possibly tell, if so at least the boots did release, 4.5 is quite a setting for a kid sized for 120 skis even with compatible boot-binding setup.
What skis have you bought your little one?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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gatecrasher, mondo size 21 is a very short BSL so 4.5 could well be spot on for an agressive junior racer.
I bought son a new bit fatter/longer/all mountain/twin tip for the great snow we were going to have in US over Easter 
As it was the snow was poor and so I kept him on his race oriented piste skis.
Just checked the manufacturers spec on the binding and it says it has an automatic height adjustment so should be fine. It certainly doesn't seem to have any excessive play, spyderjon had kindly talked me through this the other week.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
| Agree could well have been pilot error, only the people watching could possibly tell, if so at least the boots did release, 4.5 is quite a setting for a kid sized for 120 skis even with compatible boot-binding setup. |
| sarah wrote: |
| mondo size 21 is a very short BSL so 4.5 could well be spot on for an agressive junior racer. |
I actually saw the crash referred to in the other thread and the child in question would have been only 8/just 9 at the time. I know several of the parents of the other kids racing had commented before the crash that we were surprised that they'd moved him up from 115cm skis the year before straight to 135cm skis (not 120 as quoted!) as it was a huge jump not just in length but in the natural turn radius of the ski. Most of the others of a similar age were on about 120's at the time.
Sadly the postscript to that tale was that although they did subsequently move him back down to shorter skis, he never really reappeared on the race scene after that crash.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Okanagan, that's sad news.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Okanagan, wow! huge jump not only in length but as you know the performance of these skis really change once at 130cm and above for a true slalom ski, it would also explain that they were fitted with the correct bindings after all, if a child's current boots don't safely fit the bindings on skis they want then this should be enough warning they are probably not ready for them.
sarah, even if you rated this little lad as a type 3 (aggressive) skier, take his BSL, height & age into account he would need to weigh around 7 to 7 1/2 stone to qualify for a Din 0f 4.5, maybe he did! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
| he would need to weigh around 7 to 7 1/2 stone to qualify for a Din 0f 4.5, maybe he did |
No
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| Okanagan wrote: |
| gatecrasher wrote: |
| he would need to weigh around 7 to 7 1/2 stone to qualify for a Din 0f 4.5, maybe he did |
No |
Oh!
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gatecrasher, had no idea of this kids's weight, height, age etc from the OP. Was just thinking of the relatively short BSL which pushes up the DIN.
Just done some playing around on the charts, see your point
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FAQ
