 Poster: A snowHead
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| Chamcham wrote: |
Man up and shoulder your responsibilties 
Twenty years ago, in my late twenties, I moved to work in a small village. Walking aroud the village with a 40 something colleague, we saw some children messing around. He stopped and told them off, in a reponsible adult way, and we all carried on with our business. I still live near the village, but put in a similar situation today, I doubt if I would do the same, and I suspect most middle aged Brisith men would agree. I suggest that the village is worse off for that. They are not so stupid on the continent.
In a civilized society, all adults have a responsibilty for all children. On the continent, they still recognize that. The day that stops being true, we will all be the poorer for it. |
I am quite happy, even in an urban environment where everybody doesn't know everybody and knife and gun crime is far more of a problem, to tell kids to stop dicking around. I am also happy to intervene when kids (and often adults) are doing something they shouldn't.
I am not prepared to take responsibility for their safety on a ski lift.
The two things do not have to be mutually exclusive. I am happy to help keep misbehaving kids in line when others are not. Apathy is not something I suffer with. It has resulted in confrontation occasionally, which I despise, but otherwise the behaviour will escalate and get out of control. It doesn't really have much to do with kids geting on ski lifts or my feelings of responsibility there. Whether the kid gets on a chair lift or button lift until old enough to ride a chair on their own, my life and that of others is largely unaffected.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've ridden the chair lift with several kids, I tend to leave them to their own devices bar making sure their feet are clear of the bar at the top and ensuring that they don't slide underneath on the way up. IMO I don't think it should be my resonsibility to ensure that they get off at the top. If they can't get off by themselves they shouldn't be on it in the first place IMV. When my kids learned to ski in Switzerland they were limited to one lift until they had received formal instruction with an instructor in the workings of the next lift up. Nursery button rope, Poma, T-bar and finally the chair in that order. That said in the very small resort it was the lifties were experts at helping the kids on and off and would always slow down the chair and catch the Poma for the very littlies whilst they got the hang of it. Maybe that wouldn't happen quite so much in the larger French resorts.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Kel wrote: |
| Boris wrote: |
Kel, Rule 2 is a non starter as the Liftie at either end needs to lift them on and off the chair, so they need to be on the outside.
As for Rule 1 - the UK is the nanny state, mainland Europe etc still uses common sense
You are quite entitled to say No, Non, Nein whatever and travel on without child |
Its what I have always done and cannot remember ever getting stopped  |
WOuldn't work where we ski, as the lessons/kids filter in on one side, nearest to liftie, and are plonked on the end. Would never get them between us.
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OMG! This reminds me of two years ago and our then 4 and a half year old was in ski school. After a couple of days the Instructors told us they were going to the top of the Penken (Mayrhofen) and skiing down the 'Baby Blue', we waved our daughter off with the group and headed off to ski down an adjacent slope. On the way we saw our daughter having been placed on the chairlift with a very disinterested man and no one else. She was sitting right forward, with no bar between her legs and hanging on to the bar for dear life.
Other half started to shout, 'sit back, sit back', as she passed overhead, with the man totally oblivious. There was absolutely nothing we could do, she was off up the mountain with a complete stranger - I was so worried, all we could do was run back to the queue and go up several chairs behind her - so absolutely no use at all. Our only consolation was that she did actually know how to get off the other end, with some help, although why she was sitting so far forward, we will never know.
Needless to say, she was fine, by the time we got off at the top, the group was reformed and they were on their way down - However, I shall never forget that moment of fear that she was going to slip through.
Silly think is, I have been skiing enough to know this could happen, I suppose I just thought as it was a small group of five, the instructor would be with them.
Thankfully she is old enough to just manage to jump on and get off if she needs to.
We saw the magnetic seats in La Tania and Courcheval this year, but never them being used, however, my daughter who is now 6 did tell me she saw a child fall off the lift when she was with her instructor and it was just before they got off and they fell under the net into the snow!!!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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K8T, so essentially your story is "a ski instructor decided his client was fine to go up the hill, and she was. but I decided to be panic-stricken anyway"
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Lots of anectdotal stuff on here but does anyone have access to information showing the actual safety record of these lifts for children of different ages.
Until they were older my (4) kids never went on a chair lift with a stranger - why oh why would i take that chance? and why should a stranger have to take that responsibility?
i made it my responsibility to make sure we didn't get ourselves into a position where they had to.
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| sunnbuel wrote: |
| Until they were older my (4) kids never went on a chair lift with a stranger |
Did they go to ski school?
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| sunnbuel wrote: |
Until they were older my (4) kids never went on a chair lift with a stranger - why oh why would i take that chance? and why should a stranger have to take that responsibility?
i made it my responsibility to make sure we didn't get ourselves into a position where they had to. |
I consider this to be the correct attitude for a parent to take, and one which is very considerate of others (as well as their own kids safety)
The risk may not be massive, but it clearly does happen, luckily lots of the incidents above have resulted in a bit of fear and minor injuries, but clearly bigger accidents do happen, as reported in the media.
The major issue for me is if I had young kids and they did have an incident on a chairlift, how difficult it could be to get them back on a chairlift in the future. They're scary enough for a lot of people, an accident that results in an injury etc could be just the shove they need into never wanting to get on a chair again, and as a result ski trips are hardly going to be much fun for them as they grow up.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I like chatting to kids who ride up on chairlifts in this situation - good opportunity to practice ones French/Italian - or if in the USA/Canada - for the local kids to learn some English
I have kids - they have spent time in ski-schools (but never with group sizes of more than 5-6) - others have helped them. So I help others' kids. The ski-pole as an extra safety-bar thing someone mentioned works well. The main danger comes when the smaller ones try and turn round to look behind them.
Brits are rightly criticised for their anti-child culture. In France and Italy and Spain kids come to family meals out, move around, interact with other families' kids and other adults. So many Brits want kids quiet or absent at meal times (hello Mark Warner et al...). It takes a village to raise a child... etc etc
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Chasseur, only the youngest kids speak slowly enough for me. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stoatsbrother,  you know it!
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| Monium wrote: |
| sunnbuel wrote: |
Until they were older my (4) kids never went on a chair lift with a stranger - why oh why would i take that chance? and why should a stranger have to take that responsibility?
i made it my responsibility to make sure we didn't get ourselves into a position where they had to. |
I consider this to be the correct attitude for a parent to take, and one which is very considerate of others (as well as their own kids safety)
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I don't - we will obviously differ on this point
Parents are THE WORST people to teach their kids how to ski
Kids need to have some freedom, danger if you like, in their lives.
The rest of Europe hasn't tied itself up into politically correct knots about dealing with kids and still has the concepts of common sense and social responsibility.
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You know it makes sense.
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[quote="Boris...........The rest of Europe hasn't tied itself up into politically correct knots about dealing with kids and still has the concepts of common sense and social responsibility.[/quote]
Quite.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Until they were older my (4) kids never went on a chair lift with a stranger - why oh why would i take that chance?
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What chance? What do you imagine I'm going to do with your precious babykins, throw it off the lift? 
I've minded lots of anklebiters on chairlifts, can't see why people would get so het up about it - we're talking 10 minutes on a lift, FFS, it's not exactly enough time to eat all of it, is it?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Boris wrote: |
| Monium wrote: |
| sunnbuel wrote: |
Until they were older my (4) kids never went on a chair lift with a stranger - why oh why would i take that chance? and why should a stranger have to take that responsibility?
i made it my responsibility to make sure we didn't get ourselves into a position where they had to. |
I consider this to be the correct attitude for a parent to take, and one which is very considerate of others (as well as their own kids safety)
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I don't - we will obviously differ on this point
Parents are THE WORST people to teach their kids how to ski
Kids need to have some freedom, danger if you like, in their lives.
The rest of Europe hasn't tied itself up into politically correct knots about dealing with kids and still has the concepts of common sense and social responsibility. |
The parent doesn't have to teach them to ski, but they could, for example, sit at the back of the snake of kids ploughing down the mountain and join the kid on the lift.
Kids do need to have some freedom, even some danger, in their lives, but there's a difference between letting them go and play in the garden unsupervised and letting them run around in the road.
We do, however, agree about the politically correct nonsense that the UK has fallen into, but don't think that taking a responsible attitude to kids dangling 30+ feet from the ground in a chair is part of this problem.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| gilo wrote: |
K8T, so essentially your story is "a ski instructor decided his client was fine to go up the hill, and she was. but I decided to be panic-stricken anyway"
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Not quite, I am not really the panicky type, If I was, I wouldn't be taking my daughter all over a mountain, with a fair few out of control lunatics around and allowing her to go to ski school and have lessons without me watching over her.
She was absolutely fine in her ability to ski down from whence she was going, no problems there, so that certainly was not the issue, the issue was that she was on a chairlift, sitting precariously, with someone who had no idea who she was, her ability, or was even attempting to ensure her safety and to be honest, why should he?
I was panic stricken by the fact a four year old was put in this position and the instructor was not with her. I was also concerned that she would get half way up and be upset that she was with someone she didn't know, who wasn't communicating with her. The ski instructor was several chairs behind, she would be getting off at the top, and waiting on her own - she was the first up. At 4 years old, I don't feel this was right and yes I was panic stricken, that this had happened and to be honest, half expecting to find her having fallen off!!
As I said, it was all OK, we arrived to see the group together, she wasn't upset, or bothered! I didn't say anything to her, or the instructor at the time, perhaps I should have but the moment had passed, everything was alright and I didn't want to make her worried about what happened. I had satisfied myself she was OK and off she went.
We just had a little chat later about sitting back, waiting for the instructor to come, by standing near the chairlift and reiterated the rule of not going off with anyone else etc. etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stoatsbrother, Boris,
Couldn't agree more. In my experience I would add Canada to the rest of Europe too. Totally different attitude to kids coupled witha volunteer culture
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rob@rar,
yes and no!
they all started (and continued) in kids clubs in Uk facilities (dry and fridge and SkiScot) so button and Tbar.
for euro holidays when they were very young i chose resorts where we could button and t bar as well as cable car etc deliberately avoiding chair lift areas. They have been in ski school in a couple of those areas and so did not need to use chair lifts.
They have been on 'kids club' holidays (an advantage of being a regular at a UK facility) and went on chairlifts with adults who knew them and importantly i knew those adults!
It worked for me but i understand not everyone can or wants to do it this way. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| adie wrote: |
You have to be some sort of miserable git who doesn't want to help out a young kid on a chair lift. |
+1 - and that's from me- I'm famous for being a miserable git- and a cult- at least that's what I thought they said....
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sunnbuel, at what age did you consider them old enough to go on chairlifts with adults they didn't know? How many resorts did you find where it was possible to avoid chairlifts?
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sunnbuel, - you are David Goldsmith and I claim my prize (this must be a Troll)
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rob@rar,
8 for the lads and 10 for the girls (sexist i know), at that point i felt they had enough in reserve to cope if anything went wrong.
Quite a few resorts in germany/austria/switzerland - obviously they are the smaller villages which tend to be great if you are with the younger kids anyway.
I have to confess i have never skied in france apart from gerardmer.
But i may be tempted by Les Arcs!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ed123,
ha ha..wrong!! 
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| Quote: |
8 for the lads and 10 for the girls (sexist i know), at that point i felt they had enough in reserve to cope if anything went wrong.
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I am not clear on your rational for letting boys on earlier than girls?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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gryphea,
no rational - just father:daughter thing (ah how old fashioned!)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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sunnbuel,
But what is the danger from, and why is it more for girls?
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You know it makes sense.
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stoatsbrother,
Like you I don't buy this opportunistic perv on lift business.
Its in public, there is no room for manoevre, its cold these are often quad chairs and I thought in most resorts the lift tickets are effectively tracking skiers (or at least there is a risk of that)
I now often get called by my name by lift operators scanning tickets quite frequently.
If the danger was from pervs; why would it be increased for girsl?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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OK, I will ask the question directly: If you have a child placed on your chair next to you is it your responsibility to ensure that they dismount properly at the top, or as I have always supposed, can you assume that the instructor will have ensured you have been given a child that can manage this themselves?
Also, although it has been hinted at, if the worst happens, could you legally be 'done' if something happens to the child? Or is it like first aid delivered in good faith? i.e. it is often said no court in the land would 'do you' if you had done your best as the first case would result in no-one being prepared to deliver first aid to a stranger.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
The parent doesn't have to teach them to ski, but they could, for example, sit at the back of the snake of kids ploughing down the mountain and join the kid on the lift.
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That would make you Fave Faffing Father of the week with the ski instructors.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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(Quite) a few years ago, I was on a "boys" trip in Verbier, having the usual let's see what we can do type of morning when the weather changed dramatically for the worse with plunging temperatures, next to no visibility and a rising wind. We all realised that this wasn't funny and headed for a chairlift to get us on to the quickest/safest way home. At the bottom of the lift we met a huddle of kids and a ski instructor keeping them herded a bit like penguins. She asked each of us to take one of the kids up on the chair and to shield them from the cold and wind. She also made it absolutely clear that this was not a request but was an instruction that was not negotiable. Nobody had a problem with this; we all realised that getting off the slopes was a priority and thought the instructor was absolutely doing the right thing. I can't imagine why anyone would refuse such a request in these circumstances.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| sunnbuel wrote: |
| - why should a stranger have to take on responsibility for my young kids in a metal chair, 40 feet up in the air? its not what the stranger would do - its what my kids may have done! |
It's a nice thing to do. Helps the instructor provide a safe and timely lesson for the kids. It's in the mountains, everyone is trying to have a good time; I'm happy to help out.
| Quote: |
| Also what if there was a problem with the chair lift mid air? (okay dont think it happens too often) but stranger is subjected to 10, 20, 30mins + of a less than happy sprog. |
I'd do what I would do if I was stuck on a chairlift with any stranger (whether that be a child, in or out of lessons, or with an adult) who wasn't happy about being stuck there. I'm try to be as calm and as comforting as I could. I don't need to have been given 'responsibility' for someone to want to help out.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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loatie, see what you started.
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rob@rar,
yeh but you sound like a really nice bloke. ( i would and have done the same as you) BUT Not everyone who ski's or snowboards wants to...as indicated in many of the comments in this thread. 
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pam w, posted in good faith 
Hope everything is going well in Les saisies - seeing Francoise on Tuesday in an effort to get my French more reasonable so at least I can converse a little more fluently on the said chairlift!!
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Phew - no wonder the two 7 yr olds last week were so keen to ride the lifts on their own... sounds much less stressful than being asked to ride with an adult if the responses here are a fair representation of skiers as a whole!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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sunnbuel, we all will help other families with kids- the world is a nice place!
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FAQ
