Some footage to have a look at and critique from today in Fernie, BC - clips are filmed on, in order, upper siberia ridge (x2), lower siberia, bear for both skiers.
I have some thoughts, but will keep them to myself for now...
Cheers,
Dave
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Someone needs to work on their video skills -
You know I'm not in to this but I'm sure you'll appreciate my comments anyway...
Skier 1. Great lower body, looks like the top half collapses too much. On the groomer it looked like that was part of the style, in the deeper stuff you could see you collapsing at each turn.
Skier 2. Back seat at the start. Seemed OK, could tighten up all round, needs to quieten down the upper body.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'm cr*p at this kinda stuff but...
vid 1, seems hunched over the skis almost as if they have been told to get the weight forwards, could straighten upper body and make legs work more
vid 2 seems the opposite, upper body straighter but seems to be sitting back too much....
Just to make things a bit clearer - obviously Skier 1 is me, 2 is my housemate Dan. We're both going for our CSIA3's this year. We filmed today to look at how a change we'd made in our skiing affected us. The intention is to keep the centre of mass lower and more stable, and extend/flex legs underneath the body without having to rise "up" and sacrifice pressure on the edges. Also, the two bump pitches are actually pretty steep, it's a double black (not that really means anything) on a ridgeline. That's why you're seeing so much upper body absorbtion. Groomer pitches are reasonably steep (probably a euro black gradient?) - the way we filmed doesn't really give any impression of the terrain, and yeah, cameras are hard to use
The first thing we noticed was that Dan was getting caught way back - he's not compensating for the lower stance he's using by bringing his upper body further forwards. That's why I'm the opposite - the legs are doing the work, or at least that's the plan. The pitch of the first bumps makes not up-unweighting a bit too challenging though, and it's the first semi-pow day we've had for a while
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
DaveC, My first impression of Vid one was that the skier's upper body was collapsing from time to time on the off piste. Also some '2 step' going on. On the piste section(s) the turn frequency on the steeper section isn't constant and get's bigger.
For the 2nd clip:
1st clip, Turn frequency breaks down (but maybe deliberate). In the bumps the skier is pretty square to his ski's most of the time, might be worth looking at adding some 'upper/lower body separation'. On the piste stuff I wonder if the 'back' thing is related to overly stiff boots - restricted ankle flex ?
Whats' the general feedback you've had from your CSIA trainers ?
DaveC, Way above my level But I will give it a go for the on piste stuff.
On some if the turns there seemed to be poor engagement of the tips with the snow as the snow plume starts further back on the ski. (compare that with turns where the plume starts at the tip) This suggests that your allowing the weight to get slightly back as you come through the fallline.
Some of your turns seems to start a little late (possibly as a result of the above) you may want to think about getting you weight onto the new outside ski sightly earlier in the turn by slightly more definite OLE. You will need to demonstrate active steering into the falline.
Some of your pressure management towards the ends of a couple turns is not sufficent to stop the edges starting to break away.
Some of your upper body seperation could be improved. try holding your original sightline for longer after changing edges.
Finally your skiing is way better than mine, that snow looks excellent and Im a level 1 so not worthy of passing comment (but its good practice so thanks for posting)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Just had a quick look; overall things look good to me. With regard to your piste performance I think the top half of the turn looks a bit "drifty" as you are not really engaging the skis until you reach the fall line. This might be because of limited leg extension as a result of trying to keep a stable CoM and use cross-under transitions. For that aspect of your skiing I'd suggest either allowing your CoM to rise a bit more so you can use a bit more leg extension and engage the skis earlier in the turn, or get your feet out to the side much earlier/further so you develop a more acute edge angle in the first phase of the turn.
In the off-piste stuff I think the same desire to keep a stable CoM is limiting your ability to absorb some of the hits, resulting in a couple of occasions where you break forward at the waist because you've used up all your leg flexion. In summary I think you might have over-cooked the low CoM.
After all it is free
After all it is free
well you r both better skiers than myself so i cant realy have any input other than your looking good and whateverrob@rar, says
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Can't say much about the skiing but from a human POV. Skier 1 is very hunch shouldered and round backed and though it may be a trick of the helmet shape it appears he is looking very short on the hill and the turns are a reaction to what he can see rather than already in his head and looking on to the next. There's no forward planning and hence the poor response in the hits. The upper body is absorbing too much energy because of it.
Skier 2 is much more upright but very stiff with little apparent separation at the waist, square shouldered and leaning back, bet he's got quads like steel hawsers (or very sore ones)
I get the feeling that both skiers are using their legs for a lot more steering input than suspension control.
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Wondered how your season in Fernie was shaping up. We went to Whitefish for 6 nights over Christmas. Lots of Pow and great time. Kids even got backpacks, pencils and whistles from teh US customs and border guys. Quite extraordinary. Montana cheap too.
So how much benefit can you see from the weights programme?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
DaveC, do you pick a line before you set off or just go for it? "on the steep bit"
You look like your only skiing for the next turn and not 2 or 3 ahead (I know im looking at a video and cant see the terrain so it may have been impossible)
I usually spot my line, then some escape lines or stop for when it goes wrong and then I try not to look down at my ski or next turn
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
DaveC, I see where the problem lies here. You're making too many turns. Rather than this complicated reworking of technique can I propose the tried and tested "huck it, f*ck it" methodology? I'm sure parlor would approve.
Jesting aside, that pitch is pretty steep, from what I recall, and I can see the logic in lowering the centre of mass. Lower body looked pretty neat to me.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Hi all -
Lots of stuff to address, but for my skiing I'm having a hard time relating to this "upper body collapsing" thing - there's one point in the steep bumps where I have to speed check rather than boost off it into a tree off camera and my chest drops because of it, but otherwise it's caused is actually a side effect of hitting a patch of deeper snow unexpectedly and having to drive my feet forwards to overcome the resistance. Probably not ideal.
The line selection stuff is basically correct - you can't pick more than 2 or 3 turns before you're skiing whatever appears next - I took that tight three tree line on purpose, but otherwise I was skiing what turned up under my feet. That section is a fair bit more technical and steep than it looks on film I guess.
Anyway, yeah I'm not too pleased with what we got on film - for a start, the area that we were experimenting with wasn't actually very obvious at all. I'm OK with the off piste clips, because it felt like I was skiing terribly, but the groomer stuff is definitely dodgy. I was playing with pressuring the ski from behind the ball of my foot (kevindonkleywood picked up on those turns perfectly) some turns and trying to keep consistant pressure on the ski through transitions.
rob@rar, yeah, experimenting with the low CoM made it very hard to get an early edge, especially as the pressure built up - I agree on the drifting element. This is especially obvious in the second groomer clip because the snow was super inconsistant (ice to windblown blower buildup) and I'm actually off balance in at least 2-3 turns. As above though, I'm not convinced that the breaking at the waist excessively is a result of lack of flexion - more that I failed to anticipate the snow I'm about to hit and had to quickly recover. A lower stance should still have a pretty similar RoM to flex down with?
Masque, there's a ton of absorbtion and pressure control going on, steering is sometimes sacrificed which you can see in the mini stems that appear in both our skiing.
david@mediacopy, not had much training yet this season - mental busy period has just passed, but basically the feedback we've both had has been positive - this was filmed the day after discussing low CoM to allow greater manipulation of pressure though. "turn frequency breaks down" mainly because there are trees in the way, btw I did intentionally switch to medium turns from shorts on the first groomed section though.
gryphea, great thanks! I have no idea how much benefit my lifting has given me - I've been in a perpetual state of illness since I got here! Seem to blow my nose every run, so I'm out of breath all the time but I definitely feel more stable and stronger when I generate high forces in a turn. The other really cool side effect is that it's given me a different type of biomechanical awareness - I definitely feel like I can rely on internal feedback a lot more this year already.
We'll probably be doing a fair bit more filming as the season goes on - l3 course is jan 24th, and then I'll probably take an exam mid season if I'm feeling good about it.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
DaveC, Interesting, I have a theory that men (not racing competitors) have a real problem with their 'suspension'. It's not fully formed yet and I need more video to offer in support but the gist is we have a real tendency to fight the surface contours too hard. We rarely relax and let our legs flow, instead stiffen in reaction too much and then transferring the forces into our upper body forcing it to absorb the hits. Good and great skiers have a very stable upper body and their legs are very free moving. Liken it to a long stroke, soft sprung, well damped shock absorber on a moto-x bike. Positionally, you have a very rounded back and hunch shouldered I suspect that you are letting your 'core' collapse a little at the same time as using your lower back muscles to support your torso. When the day is ended do you have a stiff or sore lower back and the same in your neck/shoulders?
I'm not looking at your skiing, just your body position and movements.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Masque, no, not at all, and I'll get some footage of my normal mogul skiing or regular off piste to show you how I ski normal bumps The "hunch shoulders" is partly CSIA style, partly that I'm trying to keep my CoM very low by doing exactly that.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
DaveC, Bloody tree's !
But it's a problem analyzing video unless you know the specific task and focus you can only say what you see and make general comments.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
david@mediacopy wrote:
it's a problem analyzing video unless you know the specific task and focus you can only say what you see and make general comments.
if you are doing more videos then you should get an image stabalised video camera and try and not to keep zooming in and out, maybe find a section you can repeat using different techniques
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DaveC, just saw this thread and only have a few comments. You are of a similar build to me and ski like me so perhaps the following will help. I went through a phase of trying to get low and dynamic as per your video with the same results as the others mention with some waist breaking and lack of control in phase 1. Pretty good skiing going on and although i dont know what the bar is for a CSIA L3 exam i would think you would be there or there abouts. have a go!!
Tough to give feedback on the variables but i would stay taller to be able to react better to changes. I understand that you were working on a low COM but as rob said i think that it is overdone. with trying to stay low you arent active enough and the shoulders intitiate the turns occassionaly. Looks a bit laboured for L3 and the divergence that comes in from time to time would be a fail in a basi L3.
I think a low stance doesnt really work well for taller guys except for piste performance turns. I consistently get told to "stay tall" "use my frame" "a long leg is a strong leg". You at times get hung on the inside leg and i dont see you actively standing on the new outside leg, engaging the ski at the top of the turn. you tend to let the skis drift away from you to start the turn and at slower speeds the skis are only hooked up in phase 3. The top section of those medium radius turns would be doubtful IMO at L3 but as the speed builds they get much better. The canadian crouch is a style thing and your basic stance is good so i wouldnt worry about that too much other than having a taller home position.
good separation but actively stand on the new ski in phase 1 and drive down the hill. off the top of my head for practice.... Maybe try some funnel turns to sharpen up the piste performance and focus more on short radius turns on piste to get active in phase 1.... do you do any one ski skiing? that would help as well. I also dont see much for aft movement on the steeps and you could work on sucking back the ankles and shooting them out and i would do loads of stork drills to get on the outside ski in phase 1, then move into javelin shorts and javelin long turns.
snow looks great lucky you to be doing another season !!
fatbob, until the last few days it's been pretty thin on the ground - we've had 100cm (of mainly cement) in the past 4 days so the next vids may be less bushy!
Please feel free to ignore my comments as I'm not an instructor.
Someone else mentioned that the "hunched" style was indicative of CSIA instructors. I'd echo that - especially those who trained with the International Academy. However, I've only seen this "shape" at L2, not at L3. For what it's worth.
Tbh, I bet you look awesome on a kinder pitch - perhaps work on making it look (be) perfect on a steep blue/single black - unless you're going to be examined on the double black.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Alexandra, I think that's reasonable - I don't really like the "hunch", and have tried to change that significantly into keeping a tight lower back (ie in extension). There's supposed to be a rounding of the shoulders/upper back, but not like how I'm skiing.
The aim of using the hardest terrain is that notching it down a level makes things feel really easy - so I'd like to be able to do that for my ski off. I do ski a lot of the mountain though, just happened to be filimg here because it was an easy lap with nice variety.
After all it is free
After all it is free
DaveC, Its difficult to say somethng, I want to see more, but what I can see, U two looks a little bit thinks to much on the "style" Its seems that U are scared, you are proberly not, but I think you has to be a little more "agressive" in your skiing, to much stop in the turns, But skiing in boys, and have fun out there,, I hope U will have the real big dumps
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