Your thoughts on mixed skier and border off-piste groups?

A snowHead

Swirly made a very thoughtful post on the subject here - but wondered what the skier's perspective might be. Have you skied with borders off-piste? How did it go? If you are a border - what are your thoughts?

A snowHead

No idea, because I haven't skied significantly off-piste, just wanted to say how interesting I found Swirly's post. Thank you.

brian

I've shared sliding arrangements with tray boys a couple of times, including a day with Swirly last year. I think I did at least my share of holding up the group. Confused

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a very good precis although he is clearly fibbing in the bit where he claims to have overtaken me Wink

it really depends on the off-piste. if it is fairly straight up and down stuff, it doesn't make much difference. in fact the boarder will have an advantage because it is easier to board through some of the funkier snow-types. if you are skiing long routes like you do at LG, off Mont Fort or from the top of Alpe d'Huez, the boarder needs to know what to expect and have coping strategies for traverses, flat bits etc

the other thing which gets a bit overlooked is that boarders can't side step out of tricky situations (eg finding themselves cliffed out) and soft boots make booting out of such situations difficult if the snow is hard. this requires a bit of awareness from both sides. the skier needs to be the one who makes a couple of turns to see whether the slope really does cliff out and the boarder needs to be sufficiently clued up to know when to exercise caution

i generally like to take my time on long mountain routes (unless there is a real safety need to get a move on) so I don't mind a bit of snowboarder related faff. gives me an opportunity for a rest Cool

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achilles, I ski with boarders off piste all the time, its no problem, on the contrary I've pick up loads skiing with boarders.

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That's my useful post quota done for this year, back to posting guff for me.

Seriously though I'm interested in this norris would be another good person to ask, he was the only border in the steep Vanoise trip last season so I think his opinions would be worth having.

Arno makes a good point about cliffs, on adventurous stuff I tend to carry an axe just in case, never actually needed it but there have been a couple of times when it was nice to have it in my hand (and one where it would have been nice to have that in my hand and my board on my back rather than vice-versa Embarassed

). In certain situations there's less leeway on a board and it's good for skiers to be aware of when this may be the case.

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I skied a fair bit with tray boys & girls. The short answer is, no problem.

The long answer is actually, it depends on the particular boarders a lot.

In Swirly's post, he pointed out a lot of what a boarder need do to keep up. The specific is less important than the attitude. If a boarder is whinny, he's going to p$ss off everyone. But if he/she is self-reliant and just push through the flat bits, they'll earn the respect of skiers. And they might in turn offer a pole or a tow. There're also a lot of little tricks an experienced off-piste boarder know on how to get through all sort of difficult situation I never know possible! Smile

Having skied with tray riders a lot, I can quickly see the difficult bits for them when I'm in front. I would warned my boarder mates, point out alternate routes, or offer tows as soon as benefitial. And it's also easier for me as a skier to go up front to scout when needed. It's a group outing, after all.

There're some routes that suits boarder better and some routes suit skier better. It's sometimes helpful to ski seperately part of the holiday too.

After all it is free

Thats a good point made regarding cliffs, the reverse is true on flat sections where the skier can tow the boarder along by going last and helping as necessary. On the VB in chamonix, I think it was two seasons ago a boarder in a guided group didn't quite make the rocks at the salle a manger, took off his board and started to walk the last few yards, he was killed when a crevasse opened under him on a track that lots of others had traversed on boards and skis safely but would not take the weight of someone walking.

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Ahh, the age old question.....

Most of the key issues have already been highlighted here.

I learnt the hard way as a young silly snowboard bum - completely clueless and got cliffed out several times in the late 90's, with some pretty butt clenching situations which I got through more from luck than judgement. Shocked

Now the key things I look out for whether with skiers or not. I am generally leading my (mixed) group of friends so 90% of the time I go first (apart from when we are with a qualified guide) as have the most BC experience.

1. Ice
2. cliffs
3. Flat sections
4. traverses

As an experienced BC snowboarder you learn to look for all these things but it takes quite a few years off experience to be able learn how to avoid these. The real key is to look far ahead and plan how you are going to get down the Mountain. 90% of the time this is possible but of course there are times when this is not possible.

Being able to traverse switch is a really good thing to have in your arsenal, as a toe side is always going to be more secure on hardpack/ice.

I did go on the Steep Vanoise trip last year led by offpisteskiing. I know he contacted the other 3 skiers and asked them if they would be OK with a snowboarder. He did point out to them that he thought that I might be fairly handy and not really a hindrance Cool

You will have to ask Grahamn really though!

offpisteskiing is having me back again (and another snowboard mate) as we have signed up for his "Steep Vanoise Touring Week", so I must have been doing somthing right!

At the end of the day we are all there to have fun on the Mountain and if anyone is that bothered I wouldn't want to be there with them anyway.
I do like having 1 skier in the group though as you cant be borrowing a pole for the flat bits..

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I have skied a fair bit in the Serre Che / La Grave area in mixed groups with boarders, I would imagine that what I have done is a fairly similar level to where your group appears to pitched at. ie moderately steep but not Oh F***! steep. I am not to comfortable in areas where falls have severe consequences.
My general experience is that boarders have done well but they have needed to be fit as alluded to in Swirlys post who clearly boards at a high level. There have been a couple of occasions where the group has stopped early as the boarser was getting very tired and I don't think they were any less fit than the skiers but all the traversing back to P1 and the flat bits certainly took a lot more out of them than the skiers.
Having said that on my last day in La Grave last april I was the slowest member of the party and it was not till the end of the day that the boarder who was in the group tired to anything like my level.
Boarders at a high level should have no problems, if they are at an equivalent level to the skiers I would guess that they would require a bit of extra fitness to keep going.

snow reports

I both snowboard and ski, although I'm a much better snowboarder (riding 12 years including 5 seasons!). I ride in mixed groups all the time.

I would argue that there is no issue 99% of the time. The few times where there are issues, it generally comes down to poor route choice or decision-making on someone's part. It gets really frustrating if the person "leading" the group (be they a guide/instructor or just a mate) is a skier and doesn't have the common sense to think about the snowboarders. Having to hike or scoot out of places that were totally avoidable is very, very annoying!

IME the difference between the highest traverse line that a skier and snowboarder can hold is much less than many people think, but it is undoubtedly harder for the snowboarders and requires a much greater standard of technique. If there's a traverse required to drop into something, then an experienced snowboarder will often look at changing the start point a bit. Hiking up the ridge a few metres when the skiers just drop straight in, or dropping in then stopping and booting up a few steps can make all the difference if you do it at the right time (i.e. at the start of the traverse, not at the end when you're 100 vertical metres lower than you need to be!).

If it's a question of crossing flat spots then having skiers is handy as you can always send them first to put a track in! (Ditto for traverses). If you know there's a really major flat spot (e.g. crossing a big flat glacier) you can always take poles!

I'd disagree with Arno a wee bit regarding getting out of tricky spots. If you really have to boot back out then IME it's generally more awkward for skiers. You have to be on really bullet-proof stuff for the difference in footwear to make a difference and for general scrambling around, soft boots are usually better (ski boots are too skittery). Having to carry all the ski/pole paraphenalia is much more of a faff than just having one board (which you can usually use to get some climbing help anyway). Overall, I think this one is too close to call and really depends on the specific situation.

To go back to the start, it's all down to line choice and (in my most humble opinion), snowboard-friendly lines are better lines anyway. Skiers are too lazy and waste vertical traversing in and out of stuff! NehNeh

I've skied a lot with boarders both with sHs and as part of mates trips. It's always worked out really well.

You know it makes sense.

most of my time on the slopes is spent with my sons who both board , and now i have finally reached a standard where i can actually say i do ski with them rather than just meet them at the chair lift, i find it works really well alround the mountain , and apart from the obvious problems of flat sections that catch you out , and for this we have developed quite a good towing technique

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I'm not sure I've got that much to add to this. I tend not to see this one as a big deal, although I am usually not the one having to waddle through thigh deep powder carrying a tea tray.

Most of the problems that occur when skiing with snowboarders are mitigated by doing the kinds of things that make for safe and effective travel off piste irrespective of who you are with: talking about route choice, anticipating and planning for problems, matching terrain to ability and managing the group such that everyone gets listened to. If that isn't happening then sooner or later there will be bigger problems than someone having to walk on a flat bit. Issues with snowboarders here are usually much less serious than the problems caused by a wide spread of ability in the group or someone being a pain in the ass.

Specific problems unique to snowboarders like walking on the flats are best solved by patience, a bit of forethought and no one whinging about "where's the snowboarder?" or "who put all this snow on the mountain?" Chances are they'll be quicker at something else in any case.

There are a couple of things I would watch for, some of which haven't been mentioned: firstly it is difficult at points to maintain good avi discipline and keep eyes on the boarder if they are needing to walk out of something. You may have to trade off watching the boarder vs. getting out from underneath something nasty. Secondly, kick the boarder into carrying their own pole(s). Thirdly, crampons are important if you think at any juncture that you may find firm snow. Swirly lent his to a guide earlier this year by the lac de Cleuson traverse in order that the guide could rescue his boarder client who was in difficulty. Had everyone, especially the guide's boarder, been properly equipped for a foreseable problem then no one would have been at risk of a mid afternoon swim in the lac.

I'd make one other point: patience with anyone is much easier if you have a 100 day season. It is not as easy if you have five days and are paying for a guide.

A snowHead

A snowHead

I'm usually the first man down the hill, my boarder friend usually stay's quiet and just follow's me. Flat section's in deep snow really kill boarder's energy levels, to which we discovered on a day in Italy last season which could've turned nasty pretty quickly. I'd chosen a line which from the top looked like it cancelled out a flat section but infact we ended up in a dip full of very deep snow, the skiier's had no problem but the boarder's had great difficulty, if we'd not been there to drag them out, they might have had a long freeze till spring time Laughing

The person who board's has just purchased some snowshoes for backcountry trek's, they just strap on his backpack and seem easy enough to deploy.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

What an interesting thread - I had never really stopped to consider that boarders may find some routes harder than skiers though clearly there are many situations when they do. Does this mean that boarders are more limited than skiers, and that skiing is the more whole mountain friendly discipline? Twisted Evil

Are there places that boarders are better at than skiers?

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On the whole it all works out well a mixed group, however one thing to note is to have a skiier sweeper... never a board sweeper!

Ok it means one has to take turns but it really does help!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

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As a skier and a snowboarder I have to say that I prefer off piste with people using the same gear. On a snowboard we do the off piste in a different way to skiers and quite often end up waiting for them, but like wise on the flat or harder traversing routes skiers can manage much better and then have to wait for us. It all evens out in the end but to save conflicts sometimes if possible it is better to be with people using the same gear. Although mixed groups can work well if everyone is willing to be relaxed about it.

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So which is more extreme then? Does anyone happen to know a way of finding out?

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Mr Technique, what has being more extreme got to do with the heading of this thread?????

You know it makes sense.

Swirly pretty much had it covered on the linked post. I ski and snowboard although as I've got better at skiing, the pain in the harris factor of snowboarding has seen me do less of it. It is more difficult in many places on a board - traverses, holding an edge on slick pitches etc and even remounting after a fall in flattish pockets.

That said a boarder will never hold a whole group up for an hour while they search for a ski or suffer pre-release and in the woirst case of a binding failure can simply be ducttaped to their board for extraction purposes.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

The main issue is that unless the snowboader has a split board and telescopic poles the snowboader cannot "walk" into and out from the off piste on the flat ground.

This is why I wouldn't take a boarder off piste with skiers unless I knew there were no walks.

A snowHead

I was a skier for 10 years before switching to snowboarding 15 years ago. I can walk, with or without snowshoes (sometimes use snowshoes,sometimes don't bother) into and out of the Backcountry just fine thanks. At the moment, split boards are still too much of a faff. Many people use them, but there are just too many bits and pieces to be worrying about at the moment.
Our group consists of an alpine skier, a telemark skier and 2 boarders. Generally myself and the other boarder don't really hold things up at all. I'm sure many experienced Boarders all have little tricks they use to make life as easy as possible and to conserve energy on the flats and traverses. We've been out some days and even the Telemarker will take off the skis and bootpack depending on conditions and slope angle.
Mixed groups work really well in my experience. All depends on ability levels and fitness levels.It also helps if no one has a pre conceived attitude about what anyone else has attached to their feet.

A snowHead

Like a few others on here I do both, though now have to admit to skiing more than boarding..........

Me and my mate as boarders first went to La Grave in 98 - when we turned up at the original Skiers Lodge (La Chaumin) above La Grave we were "excluded" from being with skiers - but it was only for the morning to be "checked" out by the Guide to see what we were like - in the afternoon we joined a group of skiers and we've been together ever since going all over the place every year.............

I found this on a very old blog (before the word blog was actually used Confused

)
"After last year, we're tooled up with telescopic poles, clicker bindings, K2 boots, to help up us on the hikes, getting in & out of straps was a real pain, though after an early trip to the Alps over the New Year, I'm some what skeptical over the true advantages of Clickers v Straps in deep, steep Snow....we'll find out. The poles will help on the traverses & climbs."
http://www.baylis.demon.co.uk/lagraveframe.htm

After about 5 years of doing La Grave and other classic off piste routes in the area we all gradually migrated over to touring, at first a few simple day tours, then one or two nights in a hut to full on week long hut to hut stuff..........it was the touring that eventually saw me go back to skis.

It is the touring that throws up the major differences in the disciplines, not the going down but the actuall climbing and route selection, and we experimented with every way of doing on boards......but this is where skis are way better.

Now there is only one boarder in our group and he is very strong & determined and will try & march in thigh deep powder or revert to almost paddling his board like a surfer to not keep anyone waiting - if we do have to wait for him and then later on we have a long hike he will sprint up it to sort of prove a point - all very competitive etc but at times very amusing.

Last year we had an awsome long weekend in Morzine with a guide and Jes was on his board, the guide did take us on some very non snow board friendly traverses - and he kept apologising but we just told him not to bother as Jes likes his pain!

Traverses in La Grave can be a pain on a board though does all depend on snow pack and how knackered you are - one classic off piste route in Serre (Montagnolle) is really tough on the run out - though at the end of the day you can walk it............

So skiers and boarders can go together as most on here acknowledge - I think the real problem is skiing / boarding with people you don't know - that can be very frustrating especially in deep powder if there is a difference in abilities.

Out of a group of six if two can not ski powder well and are forever face planting / loosing skis etc etc ( and I know we've all been there) it can almost be cruel on the others in the group who just want to get on before it gets tracked out!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Weathercam, very good comments, I would say as a skier and snowboarder I agree with almost everything. Have you ever tried a split board?

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I think I might have posted my views on Splits before - Splitboards major hassle putting back together at altitude in severe windchill, can't follow skiers / guides traverse tracks - crampons not solid - plus softboots in traverses not good - & softboots digging in on an icy slope frigging nightmare!

Advantages are you're not carrying a board on your back - can be a hassle in the wind, with other Splitboarders together you make your own tracks - though like I said climbing spring snow first thing in the morning not too clever.

I went the Approach ski route, 95cms skis with a Dynafit Front Binding that locks in the front of the boot - skis have custom fitted skins and have a heel setting that lets you adjust the angle - initially I had soft boots with this (specially adapted boots with lugs in the front for bindings) but soon changed to what I read about that many Pro Back Country dudes in the US were using - basically a very soft Alpine Touring Boot that is very light & flexible and being Dynafit fits the binding as it should.

I then use a Burton Hard Boot Binding on the board that takes these boots - the overall setup is very light and works really well - again do a serach on what Back Country guys in the US prefer to use.

Great thing is that when back on the piste you can cranks the boots up, change the angle of the bindings and carve the courdroy!

Anyway I'm actually selling my Snowboard Touring Set up

Anyway going off topic of this thread Sad

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Your thoughts on mixed skier and border off-piste groups?

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