If the boot fits, wear it.

A snowHead

Ok, this hopefully won't turn out to be a bootfitting thread as such.

I noticed on another thread, that people have come across, arrogant, egotistical bootfitters on their travels.
I have in my time been accused of being all, more and a whole lot worse.
That said, I meet new clients everyday. Many of whom have been to other fitters and explain their problems not only in fitting terms, but with attitude also.
Alot of what can happen is when a client doesn't listen, or try to understand what is being explained, then only to make a poor decision themselves, live to regret it, arrive at the store of another bootfitter better prepared to communicate both their needs and the short comings of the previous bootfitter.
In most instances this has been a clash of personality, not the abilities of the bootfitter it seems to me at least.

It has been said that we are like chefs; temperamental, passionate and often just plain rude.

In my experience; or at least where my fuse ends, is when our clients ask a question or are searching for answers. (often these days regarding which and what size boot they need before an evenings trawling the net for a better deal, modern commerce i'm prepared to accept.) When given, these answers are not satisfactory, for many reasons, but when said and done, much time seems to have ben wasted.

My understanding of my tools and product are constantly improving, as they must as indeed the tools/product changes.
But the retail psychology is an interesting one, one i wish to hear more about, good and bad.

Over to you.

A snowHead

Is there any standard in the boot fitting profession that boot fitters must meet before they are allowed to fit boots to people's feet - ie. is there a governing body for boot fitting?

if not, then you're always going to get people in the industry who don't come up to the non existent standard who see it more as a way to make money rather than as something they want to be the best they can be at.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

SMALLZOOKEEPER,

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shoogly, We looked at it a while ago. Just can't see it ever working to be honest. Again the chef analogy springs to mind. The only people i'd trust are the people i've worked with, not because they have worked for/with me, but because they have shown a commitment to improve, develop and progress as bootfitters and people. Each one of us, once technically competent has attracted certain client groups, when people arrive at the store, one of our most important skills has been to assess the client, often by what they wear and deportment and filter them to the correct fitter.

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RE: the customer is always right.

My ski boots are a full size, maybe a size and a half, too big for me.

I certainly wasn't right. The bloke in the shop was right. But ultimately it's up to him to sell me something, something that is of my own choosing, regardless of whether I'm a nobhead. It's not his job to argue with me about it, otherwise - irrespective of whether he would have later been proved right - I will almost certainly take my business elsewhere.

Thankfully I learned this lesson on behalf of my gf and when we went (to the same shop) to buy hers, I was able to persuade her to go half a size lower than she wanted to (I did this by threatening her with 'the hot fork again if you don't'). Now she has a pair of boots that fit like a glove, despite feeling a bit too tight for the first 2 days, and I have - effectively - a pair of wellies.

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I don't think the chef analogy is all that strong. A chef's rants and raves are usually reserved for his staff, or his employers. He doesn't spend much of his time directly interacting with the customers.

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laundryman, You are right. Toofy Grin

After all it is free

Different take here: maybe the clients with (some) attitude are the better ones. At least the bootfitter gets to know what they think.

Otherwise you get those like me - I can't be bothered to have an attitude in the shop, but if I come back a couple of times to adjust my boots and I get juniors working on them and / or no solution to pain from hell, or if the missus gets patronised, I won't come back and quietly will recommend other places to friends.

The problem is, to the uneducated (which, in comparsion to an expert bootfitter, is 99.9% of the population), it does seem a lot like voodoo. There's the fact that most people only get fitted a few times in their lives, and some people's experiences are totally different to others. My first (fitted) boots were from Lockwoods, and in hindsight came oversized, underflexed and with a poor footbed choice. If I use that story alone it reflects poorly on Lockwoods, but my buddy got his there and has done four seasons on them with no complaints.

I think you guys have a very difficult task of keeping customers happy with a trade that can't be foolproof, relies on feedback from the uneducated, and is quite expensive. Snowheads in general compound this with opinionated vague education - because of knowledge of the above, it's difficult to go into a new fitter and not be irritated if they don't follow the SZK/CEM rulebook.

It's funny though, 'cos while I know well enough to take your, or CEM's word on boots, I always cringe a bit when you recommend the LP and Navis to anyone who mentions skis on here Wink

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DaveC, Haha, they are the skis that have bought many enjoyable surprises for our clients over the years too.

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juliad, Maybe, but you'd be surprised. Simply by asking the question, why do people buy or wear such an item can give some interesting answers, not saying it's always right or failsafe, but we can for example spot a snowhead from 1000 paces.

You know it makes sense.

juliad, I think too, to perhaps defend ourselves here a little, we look for help, many years of working with skiers has taught us this can be helpful.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

juliad, For example, when a racer comes to the shop, most often they haven't been racing or training before they arrive, but always wear their club jersey and anything that let's us know, I Am A Racer.

A snowHead

SMALLZOOKEEPER,

A snowHead

Blimey! No wonder I don't get taken seriously. Fat, female, no make-up, don't care about my hair and like a "bargain" clothes wise... Sad

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

juliad, I can tell you how good someone's skiing is going to be by watching how they carry their skis and walk in their boots.

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Alexandra, Doesn't mean we wouldn't take you seriously, you're probably the most fun we could have, seem pretty comfortable with how you are, that's the best type of client. XX

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Given my recent experiences with 'Slush and Rubble' in Gateshead, and the help of the snowHead

's Ive come to the conclusion that certian establishments seem to 'go through the routine' of boot fitting without actually doing a fitting, The actual agenda for them is to reduce their returns on the various 'comfort guarentees' they may offer. Edit: (I missed a bit bere) by selling an oversized boot.

Certianally what I asked for and what I got were two totally different things and I was carefull to check that I had explained my requirements carefully (its written on the fitting sheet) and went entirely with the advice of the fitter. So I am likely to be one of those 'more difficult' customers when I get my new boots next week, I probably now know enough about boot fit to be 'fussy and difficult' with someone who is not a good fitter (like your customers you mention in your OP), but I thats not my personality so what I actually need is someone that properly understands fitting.

I think whenever you place you trust in someone who purports to be a professional you feel much more annoyed/angry/disappointed when they screw it up. For example had my boots been fitted by someone less arrogant about their abilities i would have been somewhat less annoyed and had the Saturday boy done a fitting and i had bought the boots then I would almost certianally blamed myself entirely for any subsequent problems.

I think what im trying to say is that it is only 'arrogance' if you fail to deliver, If you genuinely know your subject and do a good job then its a professional discussion.

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, yep I can see where you are coming from with those points you've just raised. However, it is dangerous to make assumptions as they are not always correct.

It is certainly useful to observe your clients when you meet them for the first time. However, it is best to actually talk to them and listen to what they have to say before making too much of an assumption. I take the same approach with my own clients from an instructing side. Initial observations can be useful but you really need to listen to the customer and not jump to a conclusion based on first appearances, their choice of shell jacket or brand of fleece etc.

I would agree that some people do themselves no favours at times but in a service based industry we shouldn't be too judgemental as people are coming to us for help and assistance.

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After all it is free

our second favorite type of customer.

My experience of bootfitting has been one bad (SnR Birmingham, way too big) and one very good (Surefoot Verbier). But this thread has got me thinking; the boot fitters only have the customers word for how experienced they are and what they are looking to achieve with the boots. Do you, as boot fitters, take into account any tendency for under/over-statement e.g. one end of the scale: "I'm really not that good" when the person in question can rip down blacks and moguls but is comparing themselves against their 20 year experience instructor mates, or the other end of the scale "I'm quite good, can get down anything" when they are a 4 week skier who might be able to get down steep stuff because they are brave but have no style and little control.

I do sympathise with bootfitters who have to deal with "self-assessment" customers. Is there scope for a rating system? For example, when I went into Surefoot I had a friend with me who was a regular visitor, knew the staff, and was able to give them an independent view on my ability and aims and objectives, which helped no-end with the fitting process.

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Dr John, to be honest, in 90% of cases ability has nothing to do with boot choice. as i've said a million times before, replace beginner, intermediate, advanced and expert with crap, poor, reasonable and good quality(equipment) and you are a bit closer to the truth.

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And just wanted to add that that I've had two bootfitting experiences in two years from two different bootfitters, both of which were good - if freeking painful - experiences.

I suspect that there are a few 'customer expectation' problems for boot fitters.

1. I suspect that boot fitting is more of a process than a one stop shop, requiring more than one visit, while customers probably expect a "one shop stop".

2. Ski Boots are a 'consumer' product. It follows that most consumers quite rightly expect to be able to walk into a shop, buy their boots and go skiing in comfort, and not have to set foot in the shop again till it's time to buy the next pair.

3. Having had first hand experience of ultra painful boots that were supposedly 'fitted' by a well known retail chain, and seen first hand the discomfort of a friend who had his boots 'fitted' in the UK before his season started, it seems to me that there is a reasonable chance that getting my next pair "fitted" could cause me quite a lot of inconvenience.

That said if I was local to someone with a good rep I'd go for it, the benefits if you are racing or training are worthwhile, but it really is a confidence thing.

You know it makes sense.

I think the real barrier with "professional" bootfitting is that lots of people really don't have a clue what their wants and needs are. The first time people buy boots its a big investment for a sport they are not necessarily 100% committed to and they come from a background of wearing rental boots which probably took 2 minutes to size up and fit and were "reasonably" comfortable. Hence they don't understand the fuss about boots, why it takes so long, why they can't have the red ones, why they need to take out a second mortgage to buy a footbed on top of an already costly pair of boots etc etc.

Add in to the mix the knowledge and expertise at the volume retail end of the trade (the UK is not the only culprit here, I've seen bad in France, US, Canada) where you might get the Saturday boy or the fresh off the Quantas flight guy who can't possibly be shown up not to be an expert and a very lumpy seasonal profile - everyone assuming that a Saturday morning in December is the best time to buy ski boots.

It's not surprising that many skiers, assuming they last that long get through a number of pairs of boots before they get some real performing fit and have lots of horror stories to share about their experiences.

I've seen good and bad while in boot shops with friends or on my own. There are without a doubt some fitters who look at the average holiday skier with some disdain or as a cash cow to sell the standard package to, some who can't even take the time to suggest when they might have an appointment so people walk out in frustration and equally some who are kind enough to deal with the stupidest of questions and deal with 5 people at once professionally on a busy evening e.g. fishing out bolts from under the footbed of junior's race boot that's "really hurting".

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

I think that many people still wonder why they need a bootfitter and more importantly why they should pay a premium for their services and the products they are finally sold. Especially when bootfitting appears on the face of it to be a bit of black art in comparison with say a Clarks fitter doing a pair of shoes on a child when at least they can see the foot inside the shoe and whether it gapes as the child walks.

People must look at ski boot fitter and think 'well what are we getting from the fitter, they can't see our foot in the boot (at least I don't think ski boot fitters come from Krypton with x-ray eys) and they can't know how it feels, what and how is this guy/girl going to do for us'. Yes, I know now there is more to it than that, but take your average uninformed punter and look at it from their perspective and it might be obvious why many folks are distrustful of the extra cash the services of a bootfitter are going to cost them. Esp. when the internet and ski shops/shows provide a ready source of bargain boots and often 50% or more of what you might pay by going through a reputable boot fitter. This might well explain the differences in attitudes of folks visiting you guys and it could purely depend on the clients knowledge base and experience.

A snowHead

Megamum, I'm not sure what your phrases of "pay a premium" and "extra cash" relate to. Premium compared to what? Surely no-one would expect to pay the same price for ski boots as a pair of rubbish "trainers", would they? They're obviously more specialised.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

laundryman, I mean the extra amount of money that I think you can end up paying by going to a proper bootfitter over what you can buy a ski boot for.

From what a gather if you are going to get a properly fitted boot then it no doubt means you are not going to be able to pick an 'one sale' model of boot or an end of line bargain, get a deal on a boot for 1/2 price - I have seen boots for sale on line and in ski shows and in shops that seem to be there at vastly reduced prices, but I don't buy them because I know now that boots should be professionally fitted if they are to be any good on your feet.

However, that never seems to stop all manner of 'punter' from slipping them on, announcing they fit and buying them and they off satisfied they have got a good deal - now you are not telling me all of those have been cheeky enough to visit a boot fitter - find out what size and shell they should be buying and then gone to get the cheapest deal they can and actually found what they were looking for in a sale. No, in the majority of cases it's surely got be 'punters' buying what feels comfortable. How do you convince those folks that they would get better boots by going to a boot fitter who will pick the boot best for the foot and ability of the skier and then it probably won't be on special offer and they could end up paying twice as much and be talked into fancy costly footbeds to boot. Indeed for the majority of 1 week a year holiday skiers a cheap on sale boot could well be bought because in 2 years they will have saved on hire costs, but will those people actually want and/or appreciate the improved performance that a boot fitter could bring to the equation or are they just happy to have one week a year of fun sliding with their mates in a pair of boots that will give them spare cash for the bar later. After all boots sell quite happily day after day on ebay as we all know - the people buying them aren't concerned that the boots might not be to within an eight of an inch foot tolerance in the boot, they just want something comfy to ski in IMV.

Sorry the above is not anti-bootfitter, but the thread is about the psychology of the ski boot buyer and I think the key is to look at what the average punter sees of the fitting process and their perception of the 'worth' of the 'fitting process vs buying a bargain boot, esp. in todays economic climate. Yes, you might argue that anyone that can afford to ski should be able to afford a full price boot, but that is not true in practice I am at the stage of not replacing my too big begineer boots literally because I can't afford to do so and still afford next years holiday. The £200-£300 the boots could cost (as I would want a proper job done) would make the difference in my affording the holiday.

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I would fall into the category of wondering what a bootfitter actually did - until that is I bought a new pair of boots from CEM last year.

They fit so much better and the difference is obvious

But how do you convince people that a bootfitter is essential - particularly the once a year skiers who just want a pair of boots of their own to avoid having someone elses sweaty feet in their boots

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After all it is free

IIRC, during summer '09 there were some new X-Waves (8 and 9) on ebay at £45. Now, if someone had rented X-Waves (not an uncommon boot) in the same size and had been happy with them, that would have been a tempting deal (and if they didn't fit, they would still have a reasonable residual value).

I've had mixed boot fitting experiences and IMHO (and possibly in my case only) the real added value has been in the custom footbed i.e. I've been fairly happy in a less than perfect fitting boot with a perfect footbed and completely miserable in a (subsequently) well fitting boot with a poorly formed footbed.

- edit for typo.

I'm sure that retail prices are all that is charged by the bootfitters, but that's my point - It is quite possible to obtain ski boots (i.e. that is 'generic unfitted ski boots') at far lower cost and for many punters they would be happy with what they end up with and unable to see the value in paying full whack for boots from a fitting process. After all I would imagine that not all people who buy bargain 'in the sales' boots/boots off of ebay/car boot sales etc. actually end up complaining about what they buy. I would imagine many newer skiers might end up with boots that are too big to give the control that fitted boots give, but I bet many ski in comfy boots without complaint for several years on what they obtain, i.e. buying an unfitted boot doesn't necessarily mean that you will be uncomfortable, in theory it doesn't necessarily mean that the boot doesn't fit either - it could luckily actually be a perfect fit. I'm not trying to diss the bootfitters here, SZK asked about buyer psychology and I think its educational to put yourself in the place of Mr & Ms average who never discover SH's or decent boot fitters and think £50 spent on ebay is cash well spent to save on hire fees. Will you ever be able to convince them that they need to spend full whack on a boot sold to them and fitted to their specific needs by a boot fitter?

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