 Poster: A snowHead
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rayscoops, i was wearing my french 'im not corrupt' altitude mask.. one down from my italian one
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't think this is really about the moral high ground - the op wanted to know the risk. It was identified what the technical and legal position was and a fair amount of detail has been provided about how the policy is enforced he can then take a decision as to whether its worthwhile. I doubt many of us can claim to be perfect - have we always chased up and down a train to find the conductor when we were unable to buy a ticket at station of departure etc?
Personally I think airlines compliance is a grey area - they are always tweaking their baggage policies and then have completely variable attitudes to enforcement - how miffed would you be for instance to buy a smaller ski bag (at additional cost) and comply strictly with their policy to find your airline is just letting anyone on without checking?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Passes less than 10 days (consec or non consec) in the Chamonix area do not require a photo or ID, are they not therefore in fact transferable as there exists no system to link the card to a holder? If I walk up to the caisse and ask for 2no 6 day passes I would pay and be handed 2no passes with no one telling me which I should keep and which I hand over to my companion, I would view that level of disregard as to who carries the card as meaning that it is transferable.
If davidof is right about the T&Cs though I am wrong (and I have no reason to doubt him). Strikes me that the lift companies should at least ask your name at purchase, or explicitly state the non transferability to customers if they want to ever point to the T&Cs on short duration passes, as their customers are clearly breaking these terms inadvertently.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just so it's clear where I am coming from, I will have a season pass, I know it isn't transferable, I will not / would not allow anyone else to use it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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davidof, 'scuse my french but - I get the first half (strictly personal,not delegable or transferable) but what does the bit in the brackets mean?
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I thought you needed a photo for all the non-transferable passes like the 10 day ones? If no photo, I really don't see how they're going to stop you 
I am sure the shorter ones are transferable.
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From Chamonix.com:
5 days (transferable and assignable) 180 €
10 days (non transferable and not resalable) 300 €
I think the docs linked above are with reference to longer passes, it specifically says you can transfer the short ones.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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firebug, that's '09 pricing on the non consec pack, which is/isn't transferable as you state.
On consec passes of sub 10 day duration you don't as you say need a photo therefore transferability is as has been said not enforcable. But my question is - is the sub 10 day pass at various resorts only 'de facto' transferable or they intended to be so by the lift company. I'm dancing on the head of a pin here, but if people want to claim the moral high ground then I want to know where that lies 
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ps firebug, your french must be good enough to let me know what "sauf le Forfait correspondant à la durée la plus courte de la grille tarifaire" means.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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midgetbiker, How about "except for the shortest duration Pass on the price matrix".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rjs, shortest pass or shorter passes? That's the crux of the matter.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| davidof, 'scuse my french but - I get the first half (strictly personal,not delegable or transferable) but what does the bit in the brackets mean? |
it means that the shortest duration of pass is transferable. I don't know what the passes are at Chamonix but looking at the grid this seems to mean that hte 4hour chrono is transferable.
[edit: as RJS says above]
This might be a legal thing as other resorts T&C have exactly the same clause. The legislation governing lift passes is the same as for train tickets.
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You know it makes sense.
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davidof, So 'standard' lift ticket T&C's state that all but the shortest of passes are non transferable. BUT then CduMB chose to waive that in the case of the sub 10 day non consecutives, my question is (now )then: Do they chose to waive it in the case of sub 10 day concurrent passes as well?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| davidof, So 'standard' lift ticket T&C's state that all but the shortest of passes are non transferable. |
I didn't look at all the T&C of the 397 french resorts but that did seem to be a common theme and I wondered if there was some law which said that your basic ticket had to be transferable. There is all sorts of weird stuff like that in France. F'rexample the Courchevel lifts are part of the Savoy Electrobus system (a tramway in the valley) because they got the money to finance the lifts from that budget, this means they have some regulations applying to buses.
| midgetbiker wrote: |
BUT then CduMB chose to waive that in the case of the sub 10 day non consecutives, my question is (now )then: Do they chose to waive it in the case of sub 10 day concurrent passes as well? |
No idea what the exact situation is with the various lift passes the CduMB offer, they are as complicated at mobile phone tarrifs. However the T&C says that the 10 day concurrent is not tranferrable. As you have pointed out if they don't have your details how can they enforce this? I believe UK rail tickets are non-transferable too.
You would have to contact the CdMB although note firebug's post, she lives in the valley after all.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I wouldn't claim to be any kind of authority on the passes though! I'd be interested to know for sure. I need to go to the office anyway for something else so I'll ask them and post back.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof, like firebug I'm only interested to know, but I will await her input with bated breath (I did actually ring the CdMB yesterday but my french/their english was only just adequate to get my real question answered without digressing on to this subject). Take your point about rail tickets though, no name, no photo, but quite easy to imagine it's supposed to be the same user on both legs of a return (although again no current route for enforcement).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Interesting point re carre neige. I'll ask about that too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Rabbiting on about T&C I'm beginning to sound more and more like David Goldsmith, although I appreciate his point about trying to back claims up with facts.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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In Zell, and all the other passes you can buy in Zell (includes Kitz, Skiwelt, Saalbach, full region Salzburg pass, etc.), it says on the Ts & Cs that no passes can be passed to a third party. Policing this is a different matter where no photos are required (less than 6 days).
However, I would think it would be only common sense on the part of the lift company to say that no passes are transferable, or otherwise any number of people could conceivably get about the mountain with one pass between them, by co-ordinating lift usage (not all lifts require passes to be scanned) and drinks stops and passing the pass between them "err yes Mr liftie, I am using the pass for the next ten minutes, my friend is using it for the 10 minutes after that". I have been errmm....aware of some friends that we have skied with in the past doing this to a limited extent, in a ski area where passes were only scanned on entrance to the area, and not on all the lifts in the domain away from the access lifts. So I would really be very surprised if any lift company actually allows transferring of even short validity passes.
Whether or not they can or try to police it is a different matter, as it would be almost impossible to attribute any passes without photos to one individual, short of having bus conducter style spot checks on the piste and in the cafes and restaurants. Lots of people pay cash for liftpasses (some lift stations in Austria only take cash), and TOs, families and group leaders might buy any number of passes at any one time.
As for the moral issue, each to their own, I personally wouldn't want to do it, although I'm not sure it's morally that different from passing parking tickets to other drivers if you are leaving the car park and there is time left to run on your ticket. The sum of money involved is obviously more, but the moral issue shouldn't be affected by that really.
D
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| Deliaskis wrote: |
As for the moral issue, each to their own, I personally wouldn't want to do it, although I'm not sure it's morally that different from passing parking tickets to other drivers if you are leaving the car park and there is time left to run on your ticket.
D |
Last Saturday when I parked in a carpark in Bicester (I was seeing CEM for a bootfitting session  ) I was surprised to see that the ticket machine required you to key in the car registration number, which was printed on the ticket. First time I've come across this, I guess this may become more common in the future.
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Alastair Pink, It is already fairly common.
And of course, is done precisely in order to avoid people "passing on" tickets with time to run.
Usually IME it only asks for the digits, or only asks for the letters, rather than requiring you to type in the whole thing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Deliaskis wrote: |
However, I would think it would be only common sense on the part of the lift company to say that no passes are transferable, or otherwise any number of people could conceivably get about the mountain with one pass between them, by co-ordinating lift usage (not all lifts require passes to be scanned) and drinks stops and passing the pass between them "err yes Mr liftie, I am using the pass for the next ten minutes, my friend is using it for the 10 minutes after that". I have been errmm....aware of some friends that we have skied with in the past doing this to a limited extent, in a ski area where passes were only scanned on entrance to the area, and not on all the lifts in the domain away from the access lifts. So I would really be very surprised if any lift company actually allows transferring of even short validity passes. |
I think it is very rare now to find lifts that don't need the pass scanning. I haven't come across one in my last three trips to Austria (Neiderau, Zillertal and Ski Welt areas).
Apart from anything else, it would stop the printout you can get showing where you skied from working properly 
There are probably still a few isolated lifts that haven't yet had the scanners fitted, particularly if they are due for replacement, but I would doubt there are enough to be able to usefully "manage" passes in that way any more.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| Deliaskis wrote: |
However, I would think it would be only common sense on the part of the lift company to say that no passes are transferable, or otherwise any number of people could conceivably get about the mountain with one pass between them, by co-ordinating lift usage (not all lifts require passes to be scanned) and drinks stops and passing the pass between them "err yes Mr liftie, I am using the pass for the next ten minutes, my friend is using it for the 10 minutes after that". I have been errmm....aware of some friends that we have skied with in the past doing this to a limited extent, in a ski area where passes were only scanned on entrance to the area, and not on all the lifts in the domain away from the access lifts. So I would really be very surprised if any lift company actually allows transferring of even short validity passes. |
I think it is very rare now to find lifts that don't need the pass scanning. I haven't come across one in my last three trips to Austria (Neiderau, Zillertal and Ski Welt areas).
Apart from anything else, it would stop the printout you can get showing where you skied from working properly
There are probably still a few isolated lifts that haven't yet had the scanners fitted, particularly if they are due for replacement, but I would doubt there are enough to be able to usefully "manage" passes in that way any more. |
True, there are fewer and fewer of them, but in the example of the friends who did it in 2008, in Austria, group went up main uplift, leaving behind one non-skier, non-skier's other half skied back down with his own pass and one other persons pass, gave 'spare' pass to non-skiing wife, both uplifted together, returned pass to rightful owner, wife sat in restaurant all day, avoided paying for non-skier liftpass all week. I wouldn't do it, don't condone it, and I am not saying you would have fun trying to ski a whole day with two people on one pass, but it's certainly do-able. Likewise, two people could take it in turns to ski for an hour and end up back at changeover point to swap passes. In a group it's even easier, as invariably there is someone putting their feet up for half an hour. Again I wouldn't do it, but it can be done.
My original point was that I would be very surprised if any lift company actually condoned transferring of passes in any shape or form, irrespective of duration, as it would potentially leave 'wiggle room' for the above scenario which is surely something they would want to avoid.
D
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Deliaskis wrote: |
As for the moral issue, each to their own, I personally wouldn't want to do it, although I'm not sure it's morally that different from passing parking tickets to other drivers if you are leaving the car park and there is time left to run on your ticket. The sum of money involved is obviously more, but the moral issue shouldn't be affected by that really.
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I have sold my day ski pass for a small amount (a euro) late afternoon to someone in the car park and didnt have a moral issue with. 1. I had paid full wack for the pass, the lift company had got their money and 2. the punter wasnt going to buy a pass that late in the day so the lift company didnt lose any revenue. I can see the issue with season passes that sell for a discounted rate, plus with 'Tourist' stamped on my forehead I'm subsidising those season passes.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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With ref. to above, I'm sure some of our guests last Winter got a day pass for the day they left, skied the morning then passed it on to the early arrivals for the following week to get a half day's ski in too.
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Alastair Pink, Bristol had parking machines where you punch in the 3 digits of the reg. plate at least 10 years ago. It's the only place I've seen it though. The contractor that controls parking control at Morrisons carpark (edit: in Scotland) was funny though. Got his machine out, looked at my non-UK reg plate and gave the expression of "WTF!?" while we just smiled back and walked off site
Would never transfer ski season tickets though - not worth the hassle.
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