Poster: A snowHead
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We have also had a night mare experience with a TO (one of the large ones - another name for expensive glass). When push came to shove, we got very little (no help) and mainly were constrained by the TO. We assumed that being with a TO they would look after us - that we definitely not the case (messed up our travel arrangement, inaccurate documentation, food poisoning, ...)
Since then, we have never used another TO (although we have had good experience with the large Putney based one - but never had a large issue to test them with)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Disasters happen - they happen with DIY as well, and having really good insurance, and the ability and willingness to help yourself when necessay, never goes amiss, no matter what sort of holiday you book. On one of our TO packages 3 of our group got stuck in a broken down lift at 2 am. When my son went to the hotel proprietor he was told to get lost. Fortunately he speaks German and called out the fire brigade!! When you go DIY your car can break down in the middle of nowhere, you can find yourself battling snowdrifts and chains, you can be diverted to an airport a long way from the one where you booked a hire car, you can find yourself stuck in a local hospital for several weeks, you can find the empty apartment above yours leaking water into your bedrooms - with no idea how to start tackling the problem.
On the whole, I think ski holidays, especially with kids, are for people who are fairly resourceful and independent - no matter how you book.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SkiingQuinHat, you are allowed to name them you know
First Choice really messed up our New Year break last season and took no responsibility. Have happily booked my summer hol with the opposition and will do so for my two ski trips this season too.
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pam w wrote: |
alex_heney, I was wondering about hotels. Given the propensity of TOs to drive a hard bargain (and the propensity of some Brit travellers to drink too much and make a noisy nuisance of themselves) I imagine there are hotels out there who would not do business with them if they could avoid it. Indeed, unless their hotel was situated in one of the small handful of resorts served by British TOs, how would you ever even know about them if you stick to packages?
There must be far more hotels throughout the Alps than those "featured" in British TO brochures. Are none of them prepared to do single rooms? |
Most of them are prepared to do single rooms. And when I have looked, I have been using Bergfex or local Tourist Information sites to find hotels, certainly not limiting myself to those in TO brochures.
But while I will look most years, I have yet to find one where the overall price of flights (inc ski carriage), transfers and similar standard hotel (I usually look for 3* with a wellness suite because I do enjoy a sauna after skiing) has come out significantly cheaper.
The closest I have come was the season before last when I was going to the Zillertal (So able to price up a transfer using trains from Innsbruck), when EJ were doing one of their "Skis go free" promotions - and even then, it only worked out £20 cheaper. At that time, I didn't feel that a saving of £20 was enough to outweigh the loss of convenience, plus the fact that the TO offered "ski leading" on 3 of the 6 days. If I had been able to save £50, I might have gone for it. More than that, I almost certainly would have.
But I always go at low season times, and don't book until the "late offers" are starting to appear. Those more constrained, and so having to book earlier, or for peak season may well be able to beat TO prices.
I am just pointing out that it isn't by any means always true that for a similar standard holiday DIY will beat TO for price.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks for all your help - very useful and reassuring!
We're going to have a play on the internet at the weekend and sort something out then - will look at all of the options mentioned - at the minute though I quite like the look of Morzine/Avoriaz (never been but the friend I'm going with went there on her first ever ski trip over 20 years ago)
Getting excited - a shame it is still 6 months away...
Frances
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Quote: |
I am just pointing out that it isn't by any means always true that for a similar standard holiday DIY will beat TO for price.
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I do agree with that, however I would contest that pound for pound there is little chance of the TO matching the quality of DIY and the peace of mind, and the lack of being treated like cattle, and being in control to a degree of your own destiny, and I nearly forgot the waiting aand the waiting and the waiting around with TO, oh and did i mention the wai.....
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northantsred wrote: |
the quality of DIY and the peace of mind, and the lack of being treated like cattle, and being in control to a degree of your own destiny, and I nearly forgot the waiting aand the waiting and the waiting around with TO, oh and did i mention the wai..... |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jonny Jones wrote: |
I want to be an individual, not a member of a herd. |
I agree with you that’s the best reason to do DIY, and probably the only one that will stand up to reasonable argument or an excel spreadsheet
From another thread
Wayne wrote: |
if we (and any other bonded TO) go bust you get your money back from ATOL. Not going to go on about XL airways “but” those who booked through a TO’s got brought home for free (and 1st in most cases).
Apart from a sense of satisfaction (and of a “slightly” increased sense of control over your time and effort) there really is no reason, that will stand up to reasonable argument, for organising your own ski tour, except one – and this is why most people do it – because they want to. I fully agree with this reason. Do something coz you want to. Sounds good to me.
The truth is that “most” people organising their own trip could have done it much simpler via a TO and in many case for cheaper. Citing that you got your flights 50p Inc taxes is not a good reason to promote self operated tours as you will have got some of the very few seats available at that price and they will not be available to others.
As I said, most people who operate their own tours do so because they want to. Fine, nothing wrong with that as long as they don’t treat the majority of skiers with a mixture of condescension and Gapper descriptions.
Due to the economies of scale we (and most TO's) can operate holidays for a cheaper cost than you could do it yourself. Plus we have the resources available to sort things out if/when they go wrong?
So, can we stop the TO bashing. Whatever you think of us, we “are” the ski industry in the UK, |
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northantsred wrote: |
Quote: |
I am just pointing out that it isn't by any means always true that for a similar standard holiday DIY will beat TO for price.
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I do agree with that, however I would contest that pound for pound there is little chance of the TO matching the quality of DIY and the peace of mind, and the lack of being treated like cattle, and being in control to a degree of your own destiny, and I nearly forgot the waiting aand the waiting and the waiting around with TO, oh and did i mention the wai..... |
I disagree. In many cases, the TO will beat DIY on a pound for pound basis for the same quality.
I've never felt like I was being treated like cattle, and have only had the "waiting and the waiting around" a couple of times (on my first ever ski trip, it took 2.5 hours to get away from the airport, and on one other holiday, they picked us up for the return trip so early that we reached the airport before the check in was open).
As Wayne says, the only real argument that is always in favour of DIY is that it is whet you personally prefer to do.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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the financial protection offered by TOs is definitely a big plus in their favour. OTOH, I've saved enough cash by DIYing over the years to take a fairly relaxed view - if I have to dip into my wallet to solve a problem, I'll do it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Quote: |
As Wayne says, the only real argument that is always in favour of DIY is that it is whet you personally prefer to do.
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alex_heney, I agree with that, the rest of it is swings and roundabouts.
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You know it makes sense.
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Wayne, Mrs Wayne is - as always I'm sure - absolutely right. That's why "pricing up" a TO holiday and trying to do the same thing yourself for 78p less is such a waste of time. The majority of resorts, and the majority of accommodation, throughout the Alps is not contracted to British TOs and scarcely any of them do flexible timings.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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There are also hoteliers that do not offer rooms to the "Brit/Irish" market as we have a reputation, this may not neccessarily true of the populace but it is indeed true. Mrs RH worked for a Norwegian TO company that had a British corporate owner, when they were being shown around hotel and apartment rooms they were dissapointed in the quality. When it was pointed out that their customers were coming from another country they were shown different rooms in the same hotel that were of a better standard, the managers were told that those rooms are booked to the British and Irish market as they dont respect the property!
It was interesting to know, so you may find if you like a hotel in particular resort book it directly and you will most likely get a room you will like more than the ones sold to the TO's. This was a couple of years ago (5) so I hope they have changed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Roy Hockley wrote: |
When it was pointed out that their customers were coming from another country they were shown different rooms in the same hotel that were of a better standard, the managers were told that those rooms are booked to the British and Irish market as they dont respect the property!
It was interesting to know, so you may find if you like a hotel in particular resort book it directly and you will most likely get a room you will like more than the ones sold to the TO's. This was a couple of years ago (5) so I hope they have changed. |
That is interesting all right and all because we are fun loving and like a few drinks when on holidays!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The implied notion of DIY is that it somehow saves you money. Many on here would even say it saves you *loads* of money. But having done the figures on a number of variable trips it doesn't add up as a cost saver. The nearest I got was saving £200 on a DIY trip vs TO but the week was later in the season, it didn't include ski carriage and the airport was a further two and half hours from where I live. So that £200 wasn't quite what it seemed.
DIY is surely just a different thing. It's an assembling of parts. If you have the time and you know what you're doing I would guess it's a fine thing to do. But how it helps you save money, I'm not so convinced. DIY will of course give you felxibility. I suspect that if you simply said I have £700 and I want two of us to go skiiing and that was all you defined you could probably do that DIY and via TO and get two very different things at that price. I suspect neither would be better than the other, but the TO's parameters would no doubt be clearly defined and limited in a few more ways.
Agree with Mrs Wayne's points - but as I said, the cry is more often that DIY is the cheaper option which in my experience doesn't stack up.
Also, with DIY holidays I have still had the pleasure of standing at a car hire desk for over an hour - waiting. I still have had to wait for delayed take offs. I've had no "quick on the ground assistance" from a rep if I needed to find something out. I've been caught in traffic on the way to a "closed off" airport and was very aware that there was only me who was responsible for getting the family to the check in desk on time - no coach load of others in the same situation and no rep to blame!
TO's aren't perfect, I'm sure. But the case for DIY isn't that it is cheaper, more that it is a bespoke solution which may accommodate your every whym and need down to the last fragment of detail. I take my hat off to anyone who has the time to go through, sort out and take responsibility for every aspect of the holiday. For me I would be fretting until the moment I stepped on the plane to go home again, lest one of my best laid plans failed and spoiled the trip for everyone.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We must have been lucky over the years as we havent really had any major problems with TO, apart from the one year with Scare Tours, and a Neilson Rep. Both of which were easily overcome. Then we had issues with the TO a couple of seasons ago, who always said they like to sort the problem in resort, we gave them the chance to put things right but got excuses.
Last year we did our first DIY trip - Canadian roadtrip - which wouldnt be feasable using a TO. We were prompted to do it for a number of reasons, one of which was the previous years experience. This year we are doing something similar in Utah, again DIY. I wouldnt say we would never use a TO again, I'm always ready to consider alternatives but I think you have to look at what you want. I wouldnt think a TO could do this years trip much cheaper than we are if at all on a like for like basis. Its certainly isnt any hassle planning it and neither was last years trip.
I think Mrs wayne has raised some valid points, and is probably worth listening to Wayne,
We're not DIYing to save money but more to get the experience we want, however I'm not adverse to trying to get the best bargain I can while sorting my own trip. I know its going to cost more than a basic holiday, but at least we will have done what we wanted.
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It's not always possible to compare like for like but I don't DIY as a cost saving exercise, I simply find the build up to and the holiday itself a far more enjoyable experience sorting things out for ourselves. There have been occassions when we have used a TO but given the choice I would prefer not to every time. And if the thing all goes pear shaped I know directly who to blame!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Angel1977, I know, it is indeed sad. TBH I personally am a very quiet drunk, tend to go into a corner and sleep, but hey I too am tarred with the stereotype!
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northantsred, Indeed that is a good point. It is fun going through the brochures and the internet and making those decisions. In the old days of looking through TO brochures, it was the same feeling! You are excited and starting the build up to the holiday in advance! Not so good for the job though as you could take your eye off the pot!
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Quote: |
fun loving and like a few drinks when on holidays!
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nothing wrong with that - it's the trashing places, spewing all over the shop and spoiling everyone else's fun which is the problem.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Did DIY last year because TO's don't do the French Pyrenees and as I can't afford Inghams' millionaire prices I will have to do DIY when I eventually get to go to Serfaus which sounds like it is one of the best resorts anywhere, but otherwise the security of a TO holiday is now relatively greater than it was, with sterling so volatile, major airlines cancelling routes at short notice leaving passengers' travel plans in tatters (a new phenomenon virtually unheard of until about a year ago) and car hire either literally unavailable at any price (as happened to some relatives in France a few weeks ago) or only at crazy prices. As a lot of smaller TO's are going to the wall on account of the fall of sterling my comment is probably only valid in respect of the two big German operators, but these two do account for most of the UK market.
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We went to Åre in Sweden DIY. Managed the whole trip set up... lift pass, flights to nearby small airport, lovely apartment with under floor heating and boot dryers for £450. Almost half the price of the TO's.
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