 Poster: A snowHead
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Research published in the British Medical Journal today states that ski helmets can reduce the risk of head or facial injuries by a half. The claim is made by Prof Brent Hagel, University of Alberta, who studied 4000 injury cases across 26 resorts in Quebec...
The findings are in this news story from today's Daily Telegraph.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I really don’t think that it’ll be very much longer until the InCos start reducing cover for people or accident victims that aren’t wearing one.
Spawn o’Masque nicked mine, I then found out he flogged it to help fund his iPod 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just a couple of days back there was a horrific accident in Quebec. Young 9 year old Lara Koury lost control during a lesson on a relatively easy slope at the resort of Mont Saint-Sauveur. Her father witnessed the accident. Picking up speed, unable to turn, she left the piste and plunged into some trees, hitting one head first. Lara was not wearing a helmet. She died shortly afterwards.
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| Quote: |
| I then found out he flogged it to help fund his iPod |
... if the one he'd acquired from you had the built in speakers he probably wouldn't have done that.
Referring to the research above, I'm not sure that this concurs with other studies of the subject. Professor Hagel's report will, I imagine, be peer-reviewed (if this hasn't happened so far) and be presented to the International Symposium on Safety in Skiing (ISSS). My understanding is that the risk of head injury in skiing remains low, and the main danger occurs from collision with off-piste solid objects (trees, pylons etc). Therefore, although it may be true that the danger can be halved, the overall risk is not that scary.
I've no personal plans as yet to wear a helmet, but I usually use one on a bike because the risk is incomparably higher on the road.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Goldsmith, Well, after I'd dreven over it's replacement (don't ask), I was hoping to get back my old one. He got a new RED for his B'day. I wouldn't mind but the little pooper just grins and gets away with it . . . s'pos that's just part of being a Dad. 
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As an adult I think it should be a personal choice - like a cycling helmet. If you pootle around on pistes then you shouldn't be 'forced' into wearing one. And the people who need one - tree skiers, off pisters etc. surely have the sense to wear one without being told they have to.
That leaves kids - absolutely should be wearing them - most parents again would do it without being told they need to. I guess its a bit more difficult for older kids/teenagers who maybe don't think its 'cool' so perhaps it would be helpful to make it compulsory up to 16?
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mountain mad, fair enough, but isn't it easier to encourage younger children to wear helmets if they see their parents wearing them?
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Wear The Fox Hat, Looking back on my recent trip, I'm happy to say that it's obvious that nearly all youngsters are wearing, also close on 40% (a very straw poll) of young adults, it's us crusties who shun them. I'm still p*ssed that they're subject to VAT.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The helmet issue is an emotive one, particualrly here in Europe. I have skiied a lot in North America and took to wearing one there, as there is no "stigma" to wearing one, and when the weather is cold/snowy i find it quite cosy! In Europe I wear one probably 60% of the time. I have to say on a warm spring day when I am just hooning around on piste it can be a bit uncomfortable and i have been known to leave it at home. Having said that you never know when you might decide to pop off the side if the conditions look good. I dont agree that cycling is a lot more dangerous than skiing - think of the sort of speeds that can very easily be achieved on snow. Last year i attempted to take what i thought was a cheeky short-cut over to a piste through some innocent looking trees - it turned out to be a very nasty patch of rock which at that point was covered with about 1 inch of snow - i fell and cracked my head on the rock, but luckily was wearing my helmet. bear in mind i wasnt going particualrly fast, or doing anything particularly crazy (my wife would attest to the fact that it looked like a reasonable short-cut). After that incident I have worn mine more often.
Another point - while shadowing a (French) instructor last year as part of my BASI training I was told by the ski school director NOT to wear my helmet because "it could scare the pupils". So much for setting an example!
Sorry for the long post - I've had many conversations with people about this!
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It's not nearly as exciting a headline if it was saying
Helmets of no use in 83% of injuries - which, if you forgive my rough and ready arithmetic, is exactly what it is saying.
And segues neatly into arguments over over-confidence, etc.
Then again, why would any parent NOT make their kids wear one.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| PG wrote: |
| Just a couple of days back there was a horrific accident in Quebec. |
Just a couple of weeks back there was an horrific accident at le Revard. Five year old Théo Cardiles, skiing with his dad, began to pick up speed on the Choucas piste, unable to control his direction he left the piste and struck a pine tree which was in his path. He was wearing a correctly fitted ski helmet which complied with European norms. Despite rapid intervention by medical teams he died on arrival in hospital in Grenoble.
It does seem logical that a helmet will reduce head injury for an equivalent shock - although I've heard of the increase risk of neck injury causing paralysis in studies of climbing accidents.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ok, it makes good headlines but judging by the information in the paper, it should not be taken too seriously.
"Injuries" appears to include everything, minor to major.
Whether or not a helmet would have reduced or prevented an injury has to be a judgement call as there is no control experiment.
Apparently no data on those who did not get injured - helmets can prevent or increase the likelyhood of an incident. Before I wore a helmet I did not get hit by the safety bar on the chairs - with a helmet it is fairly frequent.
And we are still left with the problem that helmets are probably little help if you are going to headbutt a tree at speed but it is the deaths which so often drive the call for helemts.
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PG, a sad case indeed, but from what you describe, I don't think a helmet would have saved her. This from Dr Mike Langran at Aviemore:
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| Whilst helmets may help reduce the incidence of more minor head injuries and lacerations (especially the ones we see in Scotland) they are less able to protect the foolhardy skier who pushes his or her limits and who (inadvertently) ends up wrapping themselves around a tree. To give a stark example, biomechanics have demonstrated that in order to protect the head against a direct impact blow at 30 mph, with currently available materials, a helmet would need to be at least 18cm thick, 50cm wide and weigh 5kg+. Hhhmm….stylish. Radar data collected from ski areas suggests most intermediate skiers regularly travel at between 24-38 mph. |
M80euf, re cycling versus skiing, it's not just to do with the speeds, which are indeed very similar. There are cars and trucks hurtling around the roads carrying orders of magnitude more kinetic energy than a fellow skier. Concrete and tarmac are harder than snow, and not as slippery - I know which I'd rather fall on! I'd be surprised if the statistics don't show that cycling is the more hazardous activity.
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You know it makes sense.
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davidof, the issue has never been whether the helmet will eliminate the chance of serious head injury - which clearly it cannot do -but whether it will reduce that risk. Deaths from head on collisions above a certain speed are unlikely to reduce much by increased use of the helmet. However the helmet, according to most studies, will reduce the incidence of serious injuries from glancing blows and head on collisions below a certain momentum.
In the Quebec example, she may well have died anyway. But then again, she might have got lucky if she'd been wearing a helmet. The one certainty is that without a helmet she had no chance.
Full, head on impacts represent a minority of cases involving head injuries on the piste.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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PG, it seems that you and I have collided!
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Poster: A snowHead
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On the subject of helmets, anyone come across research on helmet chin guards?
| Quote: |
| All young children should wear safety helmets, ideally with chin guards. |
(from the Beeb site http://www.bbc.co.uk/holiday/travel_tools/skitips.shtml )
Yet I've been told that away from the slalom poles, chin guards are less popular these days - the jaw/teeth may be protected, but there is increased risk of neck injury. Haven't found any studies on the Net yet however.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm not sure whether there's a link, but if one takes horse riding where the wearing of protective headware is commonplace and compulsory if riding out from a stable, chin guards were included in all BSA hats a few years back. Now they generally are not.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Another pet subject for me to get my teeth into! 
Firstly, I find the research to have little credibility. While the sample size is just about OK, the method of collecting data isn't. A questionaire done with an interviewer is needed to ensure consistancy of response. then there is the conclusion that "Wearing a helmet while skiing or snowboarding may reduce the risk of a head injury by 29 to 56 per cent," 29-56%? Is that range big enough?
Another problem is that the data is only relevent to Quebec and over a single season. If that part of the mountains had particularly icy conditions that year, the results would be very biased. And that is the nub of the problem. Condtions play a major part in the likelihood of head injury. For instance, one of the rasons that so many Scandinavians wear helmets is that they hav grown up on pistes that are rock hard (and they do that silly telemark thing!). In general, the pistes in the Alps are softer and there is less danger.
I agree that helmets might help with some minor haed injuries but they just aren't up to much when it comes to major trauma. However, I see no data regarding what injuries are caused by wearing helmets, such as to the neck. Then there is the small matter of excess confidence that extra protection gives many people.
Finally, look at head injuries that you know about. I bet we all know of one or two but most of us ski a lot and have done for many years. I personally only know of one head injury of note while skiing off piste and I don't know anybody who has had a head injury on piste. I have however, come across one on piste that I gave assistance to. BUT, I know of lots of knee injuries, shoulder and wrist injuries, thumb injuries, injuries to every part of the body rather than the head. If we want to help with minor injuries, lets look at those sorts of things.
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I hear that since air-bags were installed in cars there has been a dramatic increase in ankle/foot injuries. (FACT)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| one of the rasons that so many Scandinavians wear helmets |
Perhaps you're thinking of the Vikings? 
Helmets reduce the incidence of minor trauma and *may* lessen the effect of major shocks, in some cases. The majority of research on the subject tends to this conclusion. It's hardly surprising really.
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The full article can be viewed here: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7486/281.
Sorry cannot do links properly.
I have to say I cannot understand all the statistics but as far as I can tell the evidence from this study is that if you bang your head you are a little less likely to be carted off inthe blood wagon or ambulance to the local hospital. Probably not the most robust end point of a head injury study!
Importantly there is no information as to the incidence of head injury, generally held to be low. Nor as far as I can tell is there any information as to whether or not you are more likely to get injured in the first place if you are wearing a lid.
I will continue to wear a hat if it si cold and go bare headed otherwise I think this study adds little of value. ( It also states you may be more likely to suffer a bad neck injury if wearing a lid.)
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Damaged brain cells do not replace themselves. Even a relatively minor blow to the head can affect the individual concerned for the rest of their life. The incidence of head trauma when compared to other injuries does not seem relevant to me, for this reason in particular. The conclusions of research such as the Quebec study, as well as the evidence of my own eyes when I watch kids racing - and taking some spectacular falls - week in, week out, is enough to convince me that the wearing of helmets should be compulsory for minors. What adults do is their own affair, and I agree that the decision should be theirs alone.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Having read the original article in full (although quite quickly, did I mention that I'm off to Zermatt soon?), it's not quite as simple as the original piece in the Telegraph suggests. In fact I would go so far to say as this is yet another wee wee poor piece of medical journalism.
The summary states that wearing helmets may reduce the risk of head injury, including serious injury. It also states that there seems to be a relationship between wearing a helmet and an increased risk of severe neck injury.
As ever in medicine, there is no such thing as a free lunch, what you gain on one hand you lose on the other. This paper is a good step in the right direction in finding out whether helmets save lives or not, but I would not say that it is evidence for their efficacy.
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PG,
Children racing at the speeds you witness may well be a special case I don't know.
But from the previous evidence presented on snowheads I would say that the incidence is relevant to me making a decision, if the likelihood of getting a head injury from skiing is lower than for driving a car as would seem to be the case it makes no sense to advocate them for skiing rather than driving.
Actually it was mortality comparisons rather than head injury incidence, comparing driving to skiing but the comparison is probably a valid one as Road traffic accidents remain the greatest cause of head injury.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sorry, T Bar, you've lost me there.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I was skiing my last day of the season (last year NZ) and I was tearing down a relatively
steep slope at about 60kph, (this is fast for me).
I remember most of a pirouette and then caught an edge, it was pretty much a blank after that.
The helmet I was wearing (Giro 9) looked as though it probably saved my life (huge dents)
I was unconsious for a minute or so, (so they tell me) and concussed, along with soft tissue
damage to my back and a broken collar bone.
The Hospital people told me about the head injury rate they see each year, it's horrific.
You don't hear about it, because people with head injuries don't go back to the slopes any more.
The doctor assured me that I was lucky to be wearing a helmet, I believe him.
This was on packed powder, with some icy spots, (no trees or rocks).
If you fall fast enough, snow is hard !!!
I'll be back into it this season (JulyNZ) and I hope to be racing too, but methinks I'll wear my helmet.
Snow is the best ! 
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You know it makes sense.
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The trend over here is more in favour of wearing helmets - the kids programs don't allow them to ski without, and lots of adults do wear them, including instructors. I wear a helmet for two reasons - 1, it may lesson the chance of serious injury to my head in event of a major crash, and 2, it has undoubted saved me from any injury during a minor fall. Case in point - last week I was skiing a cat track at the end of the day, caught an edge (as you do) and did an interesting face plant which was hard enough to wipe my goggles off. If I hadn't been wearing my hemet I would have bruised the side of my head, as it was I just bent my glasses a bit (I'd have lost my glasses as well as my goggles without my helmet on. Still haven't figured out what I bruised my elbow on, though!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Having now managed to read the actual paper Iit seems they did follow proper research criteria. However, there has to be something wrong with the overall methodology to get such an inconclusive result. I was taught that if your research produces such a wide range in the conclusion, you need to start again!
I believe everybody accepts that helmets can prevent injuries. The issue is what is the likelihood of being in a situation that a helmet would help in and therefore is it worth wearing a helmet. Then there is the issue of what constitutes a "head injury" that is worth guarding against. For instance, reading pollittcl seems to suggest it is OK to bruise your elbow but not the side of your face.
I believe that the criteria that needs to be studied is not head injuries but very specifically "brain injury". A study needs to exclude bruises, cuts etc that do not have a lasting effect as these are risks that we see as acceptable for the rest of our bodies.
There are so many things in life you can protect yourself against. Maybe we should all start wearing body armour in the streets in case we are mugged. No, I hear you say, because the chances are very low its not worth while. I suspect the same is so with regard to "brain injuries" while skiing and this is why it is important for research in this area to be more rigerous than the piece that led to this thread.
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Poster: A snowHead
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What's the downside of wearing one? In tourist areas it is still quite rare to see adults wearing helmets and then most of those will be boarders. but where the locals go, you now see a lot of adults wearing them. I like mine it keeps me nice and warm.
They aren't even expensive. The Cebe helmets I got for my kids cost less than 50 SFR each (from Jumbo - they even had some noname brand for 40).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I would also add that the kids seem to like wearing them anyway. My kids will wear them for hours after they have stopped skiing for general messing around in the snow. Just because they can't be bothered to take them off and put a hat on.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| neilswingler wrote: |
| What's the downside of wearing one? |
1. Awareness. There are few helmets that do not affect peripheral vision and/or hearing in at least a small way. As collisions are an increasing source of injury, reduced awareness must bring an increased risk of collision.
2. Leverage / weight on the neck. I ended last season with a fall into powder at speed - and twisted my neck quite badly. Nothing more than anecdotal but there is a possibility that a helmet would have made my injury more severe.
My opinion is that helmets most certainly are appropriate for tree skiing, off-piste when or where conditions are rocky, for racing and for youngsters. For "normal" piste skiing and playing in the soft stuff, the benefits are not clear and (if you take my point about awareness) may not exist at all.
A helmet should probably be a part of every skiers experience but to be used when appropriate.
Far more influential on the rate of skier injury is education and training. In La Ros a few weeks ago, returning amongst hordes of skiers (and a number of nutter idiots) I had to swerve to avoid a family of three - all wearing helmets - who pulled out from the side, straight across the piste at speed, without even a glance above from any of them. I yelled a warning but there was no response that I could see - from their cosy little world inside their helmets...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| J2Dave wrote: |
| neilswingler wrote: |
| What's the downside of wearing one? |
1. Awareness. There are few helmets that do not affect peripheral vision and/or hearing in at least a small way. As collisions are an increasing source of injury, reduced awareness must bring an increased risk of collision. |
Dave,
How does a helmet reduce vision? If I'm wearing goggles, they move with the helmet, and my head, and vision is not restricted.
Also on the hearing side of things, the ear pads on my Giro 9 helmet let more sound in than a beanie or other headgear that covers your ears. (also with some helmets, you have the option of removing the ear pads.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| How does a helmet reduce vision? If I'm wearing goggles, they move with the helmet, and my head, and vision is not restricted. |
If you need to move your head to see, then it is effecting periferal vision.
I agree that helmets do reduce periferal vision. I tried some on at the weekend. however, the amount will vary from person to person as each person's limit of periferal vision differs. But then again, so do goggles which is why I prefer wrap around glasses.
For me, weight is a factor. Even the lightest helmet adds loads to the neck mussle and as I have real problems with those mussles, I don't want to put extra load on them. G forces increase that weight. I do feel that in a fall a helmet puts extra strain on the neck.
Then there is temperature control. Wearing a helmet might be great when its cold, but when the weather is warm I prefer to ski with no head covering because I get too hot.
Finally, I thought that most head injuries happened on piste, not off wth hard packed and/icy pistesbeing most responsible.
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I've skied for over 20 years and had hundreds of falls, including hundreds off-piste or while skiing in trees, and only had one bump to the head that I considered significant, when I dropped onto a road while skiing off-piste at Ste Foy while not looking ahead properly!
This is the clincher for me - awareness - I feel much safer when I have the intensity of light and air rushing past my face. A helmet makes you feel "in your own little world" and this is definitely a bad thing. And SimonN is right about goggles - while goggles are currently more fashionable these things come and go, and sunglasses are really a better solution.
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Still, race club skiers seem to have no problem with "awareness", despite wearing helmets and goggles when both racing and free skiing! It's what you're used to, and modern helmets, worn all the time, certainly don't make those concerned feel "in their own little world" - that's a perception reserved for those who never wear them.
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Plake, the problems I have with glasses are due to them misting over, or my eyes streaming, they also provide less protection, but I haven't your long history of skiing, so I can only give my 10 years of experience, and my logical but unemotional mind.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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SimonN, yes, for me it is more acceptable to bruise my elbow than the side of my head - it's not as obvious that I've fallen!
Seriously though, I don't find that my helmet affects my periferal vision because I have to move my head to see properly since I wear glasses anyway, and most of my periferal vision tends to be outside of the lense area, even with the large lenses I wear for skiing. And I wear my helmet every time I ski because I don't know when I may be skiing off piste!
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| PG wrote: |
| Still, race club skiers seem to have no problem with "awareness", despite wearing helmets and goggles when both racing and free skiing! It's what you're used to, and modern helmets, worn all the time, certainly don't make those concerned feel "in their own little world" - that's a perception reserved for those who never wear them. |
Racing is a whole different ball game. For instance, a racer doiesn't have to conend with others skiing into them. This is another of those "logical" arguements put forward by helmet wearers. But I think they are misguided. Look at it like this. F1 drivers all wear full face helmets and they wear special braces to support the head and stop it turning around as much. their periferal vision is very poor and they cannot even turn around. Based on your arguements, that means it would be OK to wear the same set up in a road car. I think not.
And you say race club skiers wear helmets when free skiing. maybe, but the FIS skiers I know don't. You cannot "prove" that it is a good thing because others do it.
And I have tried helmetsand I do think that many who wear them are cacooned in their own little world. Did you also know that people wearing helmets are more likely to hit their helmet on something than those not wearing helmets are of hitting their heads? The reason is simple. We aren't used to our heads being bigger and don't leave enough room. The bumps are only minor, getting off chair lifts etc but it does happen.
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FAQ
