I happened across the series of clips below on YouTube & also visited the www.skipanda.com where I read in the pdf "handbook":
Quote:
The Panda Method of Ski Instruction
The tutoring method and skiing technique portrayed in the tale GLEE have been used
with much success in the Panda Ski School in Chamonix, France, and in China on a wider
scale.
This method is unique in the fact that it considers that gravity is the mechanical engine
of skiing and the psychological obstacle to its learning. PANDA observes that without
gravity there is neither sliding, nor turning, nor stopping, but that nevertheless the salubrious
terror that gravity instills within any healthy-minded student is the main obstacle instructors
need to overcome,
I found it particularly interesting to watch the clips as they seem to follow the progress of a real adult learner who although apparently quite physically fit (ie can easily get up after a fall with no help) doesn't seem to be a "natural". We see real mistakes being made, as opposed to it being a series of clips showing experts making exercises look effortless. It's also interesting that the focus is on the overcoming of "fear" - a biggie for me & many other adult learners.
I am sure there's plenty of stuff in it both to commend and to criticise.........
over to the experts........
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Butterfly, To be honest I thought the first lesson was awful, and it showed in the woman's skiing on her second day. At that stage I think it's much better to steer the skis in a snowplough by rotating the legs rather than a big waist bend to try and increase the pressure on the turning ski. The result on Day 2 was a contorted body position and no control of the skis. Fear is exacerbated hugely by a lack of control; give a skier control of their skis and you have one of, and probably the main, ingredient for overcoming their fear.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 9-04-09 14:07; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I found it particularly interesting to watch the clips as they seem to follow the progress of a real adult learner who although apparently quite physically fit (ie can easily get up after a fall with no help) doesn't seem to be a "natural".
I think she looks like she might not be a natural because of the things she is being taught to do. By day 3 he seems to be getting her to step her inside foot parallel and almost touching the outside foot. It's no wonder she looks so unstable. I can't believe that an experienced instructor like easiski would do anything like this chap is doing - as an inexperienced instructor I certainly wouldn't.
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Hmm - watched as far as No. 2 to date. Notice how the instructor "drops down" to touch his ankle as a "demo" of turn initiation for the poor woman but he's actually already turned his ski by using his leg A classic "do what I say not what I do" job. Advice to move knees in and out results in her trying to plough with her knees jammed together, poor thing
After all it is free
After all it is free
Yoda, indeed, but it gets worse. I can't bear to watch any more; it's making me laugh and get angry in equally measure!
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Had I been taught like this I think my confidence issues would have been even worse tbh, hence my remark about the focus on fear being interesting!
This aside, what do people think about making a video documenting a real adult learner's journey? I think of has potential if given a good set of edits to add in the reasons for doing xyz and perhaps clips of alternative strategies. Of course every learner is different but that could be usefully highlighted by featuring clips of a variety of people.
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Butterfly, I think that would be interesting, but as you say every learner is different. Also, every teacher is different, so the value of such a video might well be fairly limited.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rob@rar, you're probably right.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Butterfly, lots of "learn to ski" videos tend to focus on that "journey" anyway - going back to the year dot eg the one from which this clip was taken
and more up to date ones from the SC /BASI etc.
ah almost forgot a plug for my old mate
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
every learner is different
I'll say. We have two friends here this week, skied a little bit before, very cautious learners. Have had some private lessons this week, plus amateur tips from me in between times. she has a superb position on her skis (the instructor waxed lyrical on how good it was) but is unfit and nervous. He has a terrible position - chronically unable to bend his ankles AT ALL but has solved the weight shifting and steering problem. Both can now control turns down green or very easy blue slopes - but despite her far better technique her fear gets the better of her as soon as it gets a little bit steeper, whereas he is more confident and can keep up his diabolical "robot man" turns as long as is necessary to reach a flatter bit. On the flatter bit she puts skis parallel and is quite relaxed picking up a bit of speed, being fundamentally so well balanced whereas although he's happy to tackle slightly more demanding terrain h he feels (rightly) constantly unbalanced and very reluctant to go faster at all, even on a flat bit.
It would be very difficult to say who had made most "progress" during the week - she dropped out of their third booked lesson because she thought the instructor had "pushed her" to do a longer (and mostly very easy) blue run even though her technique is very well up to it. Because she got so nervous he had to help her down it, using his sticks. He, on the other hand, with much poorer technique, managed to snowplough turn all the way down it - even on the flat bits, where she was quite happy to let skis run, whereas the instructor was yelling at him to get his skis "parallel".
I don't think a video of either of their progressions during the week would be too useful but their diversity does underline the need for individual tuition and feedback, especially perhaps for older learners.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Butterfly wrote:
This aside, what do people think about making a video documenting a real adult learner's journey? I think of has potential if given a good set of edits to add in the reasons for doing xyz and perhaps clips of alternative strategies. Of course every learner is different but that could be usefully highlighted by featuring clips of a variety of people.
More fun would be a season's sample of one instructors' students and the coaching tactics used.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
''if you kept feet together you would not have fallen''
Some of the falls from those videos look like they could have caused pretty nasty injuries.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
......and I take it you've listened to the (dubbed?) dialogue - priceless in places!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Butterfly, No time to watch the clips yet - but what's so special about the blurb?? Sounds pretty standard to me. I'll look forward to watching
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
easiski, when you have time (!) have a little explore of the various links here. The quote I put at the top was just by way of general introduction, that's all & hoped to stimulate a bit of interesting discussion.
Pam W So true - I keep wishing I could be more like the bloke you describe and simply have the confidence to "let go" as I'm sure I'd achieve far more; I always intend to, but something stops me. If I analyse it, there's a mix of fear of injury & also simply fear of falling as I find it so hard & thus embarrassing to get up again!
Nobody has yet said they think any of the exercises are useful...... is that because none are, or are people generalising overall? There are certainly bits I don't like the look of, but other bits seem to develop confidence & feel for balance eg the pivot round the pole & side slip thing? Having started to experience the feeling of slideslipping & parallel stops, it's something I want to practise more & get comfy with as there is definite confidence-giving potential for me there.
I went straight to lesson 6. WTF is that all about???
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Butterfly wrote:
Nobody has yet said they think any of the exercises are useful...... is that because none are, or are people generalising overall? There are certainly bits I don't like the look of, but other bits seem to develop confidence & feel for balance eg the pivot round the pole & side slip thing? Having started to experience the feeling of slideslipping & parallel stops, it's something I want to practise more & get comfy with as there is definite confidence-giving potential for me there.
6 days later she still can't control the edging of the ski separately from the steering of the ski. Which is why she has no controlled snowplough after 6 days of instruction. She has no idea of what her progress should look like, should feel like nor what context each one of the 'exercises' fits into.
None of this is her fault: the instructor is not teaching elements to achieve a skiing goal. He is shotgunning exercises at her to achieve a 'look'.
I suspect that nobody has commented on the exercises taken out of context and individually because they are unexceptional. For early to mid-90s teaching that is. If you haven't seen those exercises given to you yet, I would expect that you've had more modern instruction with a better-managed focus, that simply doesn't regard highly countered pivoting to be the next step from basic lateral balance.
If you haven't seen those exercises given to you yet.............
I am not in any way querying instruction I have had (it has been excellent), but as a teacher of a different physical skill myself, I have a strong (academic) interest in teaching techniques and learning styles - that's all . I am often guilty of asking far too many questions !
Quote:
............. more modern instruction with a better-managed focus, that simply doesn't regard highly countered pivoting to be the next step from basic lateral balance.
Thanks, that's an interesting observation. When might someone use "highly countered pivoting"? Or is that something more relevant to older straight skis rather than carvers?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 10-04-09 7:41; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Butterfly wrote:
Nobody has yet said they think any of the exercises are useful...... is that because none are, or are people generalising overall?
I couldn't bear to watch any more than the first three videos, but as comprex said, none of the teaching or drills that I saw was a worthy of particular comment although I'm sure under different circumstances what he was doing would have some application. What I saw was just bad teaching overlaid with snake-oil seller's mysticism.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Butterfly wrote:
When might someone use "highly countered pivoting"? Or is that something more relevant to older straight skis rather than carvers?
You've answered the question. It is much more relevant to "old school" skiing, and seems to be as much about a stylised look as it does about efficient biomechanics.
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rob@rar, thanks. What is the difference between this and the "braquage" exercise I've seen discussed wrt Warren Smith courses? I thought it was a similar thing......? I have been looking for an example of that on video but not come up with one. Not that I'm after doing these myself, it's just academic interest - have just been told my skis are all ready for collection (my friend's husband has serviced them for me) but it is soooo long until they will next get used that academic musing is all I can do to try to quell the ski-withdrawal symptoms!
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Butterfly, braquage (pivot slips) is a drill to develop rotation skills. You ask the student to rotate their legs in their hips sockets, and possibly at the waist as well, with the upper body well separated from the legs (ie not rotating when the legs do rotate). The upper body is supposed to be as still as possible, and best to be pointed straight down the fall line rather than held in a countered position.
There is an example of pivot slips in this video at about 1 minute 40 seconds.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rob@rar, thanks. Doesn't he make it look easy!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
"This method is unique in the fact that it considers that gravity is the mechanical engine
of skiing and the psychological obstacle to its learning. PANDA observes that without
gravity there is neither sliding, nor turning, nor stopping."
And there was me thinking that dark energy was the secret
Now that I realise gravity is involved I'm looking forward to a transformation in my skiing
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I've just watched lesson 1 & 3. Is this film a wind up? please somebody tell me it's a comedy.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Spyderman, you've sussed it It's the Chinese version of "On the Piste"
Probably needs a new thread, but whilst we're here has anyone skied with Ian Beveledge?
Whitegold wrote:
The fact is, the ideal teaching method has not yet been proven.
The wide range of views on how to teach, from so many different people, clearly indicates uncertainty.
All instructors can do is take a best-guess.
Three lines of wisdom from Whitegold. A first? Wink
Here was me thinking all these years that teaching and learning were at least a dualogue..
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Like Yoda, this concept of skiing having to do with using gravity to slide down mountains has been a Damascene moment for me. As for the novel notion that learners might be fearful and that instructors have to help clients deal with fear, well, I just wish I had known that before teaching a school group last week. Then I would have understood why my teaching of two particular students was, say, 10% on technique and 90% on talking them through and beyond their fear. I must just have a natural intuition But it's so good to have one's intuition backed up by such a profound insight into the effects of gravity.
There are of course many valid ways of teaching - including within one class - but in the end successful teaching has to be measured by outcome. What was the outcome for the lady in those videos after six days? How confidently and enjoyably could she ski around a resort? How of much of her skiing had been assimilated into movements she didn't have to think about? Hard to tell and maybe unfair to think the answer is "not a lot".
After all it is free
After all it is free
I guess from all the sarcy comments that no-one here has had a lesson from Alain. Well, guess what, I have - my second full week of skiing (days 10-16, after a 7 year break) in 1997, in Argentiere. I also had another one-off lesson from him a few years later. This really takes me back. Prior to that I had had a week's instruction in 1989 from a BASI guy which had taught me virtually nothing I'd not already learned on my previous single day's skiing from work colleagues "teaching me to ski" - I had a fairly stable but poorly controlled snowplough, and a reasonably effective sideslip (I'd worked out I really enjoyed the sensation so essentially worked out how to do that up to "falling leaf" myself). In that week Alain had me skiing (after a fashion) off-piste gulleys, crud and thigh deep bumpy soft snow, although my moguls were horrendous.
I agress that the vid is a bit of a comedy, which is a bit unfortunate. When my brother (who was a much better skier than me) asked at the end of the week how this "new way" all fitted into the grand scheme of things he told us that we'd actually look much better skiers than we actually were, as he would teach techniques that were relatively advanced for our skill/experience level - it was sort of fast-track instruction that we'd then have to leave a bit of time to bed in as we worked on in. He also generally didn't teach first weekers (his sidekick took the raw beginners), and I think this vid may show why.
comprex wrote:
I suspect that nobody has commented on the exercises taken out of context and individually because they are unexceptional. For early to mid-90s teaching that is.
And that is what I find the most surprising thing about this. These exercises are exactly what I was taught in 1997 - to the extent of using the identical terminology and analogies (although some of his more entertaining profanities have clearly been edited for general consumption). At that time he was very anti "carving" skis, and his progression is all about how to turn and control a straight ski. His "new way" he freely admitted was actually an "old way", based on racing techniques from previous decades. The main thrust of his independent stance was that he fundamentally disagreed with the ESF teaching techniques of the day (whatever they were). I also had trouble buying into his philosophical stuff (his explanations involving gravity and friction seemed a bit confused, to say the least), but I didn't have any ESF baggage that he was resiling against so strongly, so I think missed the context of his comments. So my surprise is that he hasn't taken up any of the changes that have happened to technology in the last 10 years.
comprex wrote:
6 days later she still can't control the edging of the ski separately from the steering of the ski. Which is why she has no controlled snowplough after 6 days of instruction. She has no idea of what her progress should look like, should feel like nor what context each one of the 'exercises' fits into.
None of this is her fault: the instructor is not teaching elements to achieve a skiing goal. He is shotgunning exercises at her to achieve a 'look'.
Actually I disagree with that last point. From the closing comments it is clear thet this was a challenge to get someone skiing his way from scratch in 6 days - he says at the end he needed an extra two days, and 6 was not enough time. What I noticed immediately was that he moved on from the side-slipping and stopping (boot touching) exercises before she'd "got" them. When I was with him, we (as skiers who could already ski blue runs with confidence if not style, and struggle down Argentiere reds) spent the entire first morning on sideslipping and edge-control traversing exercises. In the last quarter of an hour of that first morning he introduced that parallel turn on a sixpence, as a taster for the next lesson - and I can remember the feeling of that moment now as if it were yesterday.
The other major surprise about this was his use of snowploughs. When I was with him, he never once taught us anything to do with snowplough, and he was quite unequivocal that he never did teach anyone how to do one - as he saw no need. I guess this then becomes obvious from the vids.
Lots of what he taught me then (those "knee drive" and "hip thrust" that he works on in the vids, and counterturns, pole plant stuff) lasted me for about the next 6 or 7 years, during which I essentially developed the muscle control and reflexes to actually do what I was trying to. There are plenty of occasions where you need those kinds of tight turns and trying to use the ski sidecut just doesn't hack it. The only weeks' teaching that I have had that have made such a big differences to my skiing were my first two with Snoworks (in 2006 and 7 after 140 and 170 days skiing) and a week with Alpine Coaching this year (after 220 days skiing). His almost exclusive concentration on essentially sideslip and pivoting skills is though a major limitation. Looking back at these vids show quite clearly why I've always been very good on twisty turny stuff (tracks and traverses, steeps, and moguls when I can get my balance right), but pretty crap in flattish crust and goopy snow - it took a fair bit of effort from Phil Smith (Snoworks) and some well placed drills from Toby Fischler (Alpine Coaching) to get me sorted on that. There is also the problem that some of his turn styles (particularly the arched back) do get you into the back seat - if you for one second forget his voice continually pounding "sheen preessure, more sheeeen pressure" in your ear.
In summary:
the vids are not a good advert for what he does;
what he does do is a valuable set of tools in the armoury, some of which are now probably unjustly ignored;
time has moved on but he hasn't.
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What a fascinating insight. Thanks for this GrahamN,
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Quote:
His "new way" he freely admitted was actually an "old way", based on racing techniques from previous decades.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
A classic "do what I say not what I do" job. Advice to move knees in and out 
results in her trying to plough with her knees jammed together, poor thing 
!
But it's so good to have one's intuition backed up by such a profound insight into the effects of gravity.
